US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1226

On March 20 2019 06:12 Danglars wrote:

I wanted to hear you say that Trump was the one that made you also want to break the norms. I don’t want to assume that about you. I want to hear that “the ship has sailed” and plant the excuse that fighting to preserve norms “mean you just lose further and further” from your own mouth. That puts us in comfortable territory deciding which partisan side you favor. The principles are just lip service when you’re comfortably winning.

I bring up Gillum and Abrams, and you’re immediately onto the bad stuff that Trump did without even confronting your own side. It’s all justified now and nothing matters. Ok. Have a fun 2020 election season.

Article 55
Les traités ou accords régulièrement ratifiés ou approuvés ont, dès leur publication, une autorité supérieure à celle des lois, sous réserve, pour chaque accord ou traité, de son application par l'autre partie.

On March 20 2019 06:31 Nouar wrote:


I do confront it, though it's not "my side", since I mention that gerrymandering is also done by democrats (albeit less, but still happens.. Maryland is a sad example), and that democrats are the ones that removed the filibuster for lower court judges, opening the door to the McConnell abuse.
Looking at the current field and behavioural issues, I am more taking the side of the democrats, however you would find me criticizing their bullshit when they pull it (I haven't seen anything remotely close to what Trump or some crazy republicans have done, overall, even Ilhan Omar). Obviously during the 2016-2020 period, I am more closely watching the man in power. But that's on me not being an american, and being very foreign to some things that look extreme to foreigners (2nd amendment, abortion, evangelicals, PACs etc, mainly being pushed by Reps).

I don't see how mentioning NC election fraud, gerrymandering, and voter laws, 3/4th of my points, mean that I am immediately onto Trump as the mother of all diseases. Yes, he's 1/4th of my post, and since you bring up Gillum and Abrams' statement, I am obligated to remind that we have already been served with it by POTUS-to-be, in bad faith.

I am not very happy about Abrams' behaviour, Gillum's is a non-factor to me : "I wonder". But my answer was towards you, since I find your post very rich, on account of all the things you DON'T mention. You hold the democrats to a much higher standard that what's currently on the republican side of the field. I judge them all according to my own system of values, they are neither my president, nor my elected officials (even though the rest of the world is impacted by the US behaviour, which is why I'm here)



As a conclusion, I'll refer to one article of my constitution, vaguely related to the subject, but that I'm dealing with these days in my fight against my government :


"Treaties or agreements, legally approved, hold, from the day of their publication, a higher value than common laws, granted that for each treaty or agreement, the other party abides by it."

Do you see what I mean ? You don't play by the rules, I don't have to as well.
Now, you observing the other side answering to your skewing the rules, justifying yourself into "rightfully" not having to abide by them in the future while you were the first perpetrator, is very, very rich.

On March 20 2019 07:07 Danglars wrote:

It’s good to hear your response to Abrams and Gillum in this post. Don’t get me wrong, I’m also elated that you can oppose gerrymandering from both sides.

I’m opposed to gauging principles based on the treaty-style evaluation. That would hold true in broke promises, say if two campaigns agree to not run negative ads, and one starts. The other should not feel compelled to still honor the agreement.

I heard the meme repeared tons in the time where Hillary was a shoe-in for the presidency. Blue-wall, turning red states purple, narrow and stable polling leads in enough states to matter. The big question was if Trump would accept the results of the election when he lost. Would he make his own cable channel calling himself the real winner, and challenge it, and never put it behind him. It included many articles in the NYT and WaPo about how the peaceful handing off of power was so important to democracy itself and separated us from others. I really thought it was hogwash posturing that wouldn’t endure past their first narrow loss.

And so it was. The media that once criticized Trump’s noncommittal talk pre-election about accepting the results is silent now. I don’t really think it ever mattered to them and to many of my friends on the left. They didn’t think they’d be put in a position to want to grasp the “some votes weren’t counted” style arguments, so thought they were safe from having to put their principles into practice. And again, there’s always something to hammer about Trump.

I have no problems if you’re against somebody like Trump saying he was robbed the popular vote, and Gillum/Abrams are likewise despicable. I can even understand the thinking behind doing what it takes to win because you think the opposing side has done detestable things. I just want it out in the open to evaluate.

Voter laws, gerrymandering, and election irregularities are all themselves topics that take quite a few articles, comparisons, and statistics to truly get into. I was frustrated at Democratic vote harvesting in California and how voting laws allow for irresponsible people to really abuse it legally. The same goes for questions about verifying the vote and getting people registered and assuring everyone has the opportunity to vote if they want to (I favor a national holiday and subsidized registration drives etc) against claims of animus towards minority voting. I’m sure we can get into those at a future agreeable time, if you are willing.

After changes to the Voting Rights Act in 2012 gave states with a history of voter suppression more autonomy,[44] Kemp's office oversaw the closing of 214 polling locations, or 8% of the total number of locations in Georgia.[45] The closings disproportionately affected African-American communities.[46] In majority minority Randolph County, a consultant recommended that 7 of the 9 county polling locations be closed ahead of the 2018 midterm election for failure to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act.[47] After the plan was challenged by the American Civil Liberties Union the locations were allowed to remain open.[48] Kemp denied knowledge of the plan, but a slide from a presentation given by the consultant stated "Consolidation has come highly recommended by the Secretary of State and is already being adopted by several counties and is being seriously considered and being worked on by many more."[49] Officials claim the locations were closed as a cost-saving measure.[45]

Georgia has been the most aggressive state in removing registered voters from voter rolls for not voting in consecutive elections.[50] Between 2012 and 2018, Kemp's office cancelled over 1.4 million voters' registrations, with nearly 700,000 cancellations in 2017 alone.[51][37] On a single night in July 2017, half a million voters, or approximately 8% of all registered Georgia voters, had their registrations cancelled, an act described by The Atlanta Journal-Constitution as what "may represent the largest mass disenfranchisement in US history."[52] Kemp oversaw the removals as Secretary of State, and did so eight months after he declared that he was going to run for governor.[53]

By early October 2018, more than 53,000 voter registration applications had been put on hold by Kemp's office, with more than 75% belonging to minorities.[39][37] The voters are eligible to re-register assuming they still live in Georgia, and they have not died.[54][37][53][55] An investigative journalism group run by Greg Palast found that of the approximately 534,000 Georgians whose voter registrations were purged between 2016 and 2017 more than 334,000 still lived where they were registered.[55] The voters were given no notice that they had been purged.[56] Palast ultimately sued Kemp, claiming over 300,000 voters were purged illegally.[57] Kemp's office denied any wrongdoing, saying that by "regularly updating our rolls, we prevent fraud and ensure that all votes are cast by eligible Georgia voters."[58]

Kemp's office was found to have violated the law before and immediately after the 2018 midterm elections.[59] In a ruling against Kemp, District Judge Amy Totenberg found that Kemp's office had violated the Help America Vote Act and said an attempt by Kemp's office to expedite the certification of results "appears to suggest the Secretary’s foregoing of its responsibility to confirm the accuracy of the results prior to final certification, including the assessment of whether serious provisional balloting count issues have been consistently and properly handled." [60][61] Kemp said the expedited certification was necessary to facilitate his transition to the role of Governor.

After Totenberg's ruling thousands of voting machines were sequestered by local election officials on Election Day in 2018, an action that critics say was designed to increase wait times at polling locations.[62] The sequestration of machines disproportionately affected counties that favored Kemp's opponent[63] and caused voters in some locations to have to wait in line for hours in inclement weather in order to vote.[64][65] Other locations suffered delays because machines had been delivered without power cords.[66] Kemp himself experienced technical problems attempting to vote in the election.[67]

Kemp opposes automatic voter registration,[68] a change that advocates say would help make voting easier for eligible citizens and help prevent voter suppression.[69] In a leaked 2018 recording Kemp can be heard saying that attempts to register all eligible voters "continues to concern us, especially if everybody uses and exercises their right to vote."[70] In a separate 2018 recording made by a progressive group he can be heard saying "Democrats are working hard ... registering all these minority voters that are out there and others that are sitting on the sidelines, if they can do that, they can win these elections in November."[34][71][72]

On November 4, 2018, 48 hours before his gubernatorial election, Kemp's office of Secretary of State published the details of a zero day flaw in the State registration website,[73][74] accusing Democrats of attempted hacking for investigating the problem but providing no evidence.[75] Critics say the announcement was further evidence of voter suppression and gave hackers a window of opportunity during which voter registration records could be changed.[76] In response to criticisms of the announcement, Kemp said "I'm not worried about how it looks. I'm doing my job."[77] In a ruling on the matter, Judge Totenberg criticized Kemp for having "delayed in grappling with the heightened critical cybersecurity issues of our era posed [by] the state’s dated, vulnerable voting system" and said the system "poses a concrete risk of alteration of ballot counts."[78] In December 2018, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution found that Kemp made the hacking claims without any evidence to support the allegations.[79] The Atlanta Journal-Constitution said that Kemp may have made the unsubstantiated accusations against Democrats as a ploy and diversion to help him win the election; the "examination suggests Kemp and his aides used his elected office to protect his political campaign from a potentially devastating embarrassment. Their unsubstantiated claims came at a pivotal moment, as voters were making their final decisions in an election that had attracted intense national attention."[79]

As a result of the controversies surrounding the 2018 Georgia midterms Kemp's gubernatorial victory has been referred to by critics as illegitimate,[80] with others, such as Senator Cory Booker, going so far as to say the election was "stolen."[81]

On March 20 2019 07:17 Plansix wrote:
Also, are Republicans not allowed to harvest votes in California? It is just people collecting absentee ballots and delivering them to a polling place. It isn't like there are not systems to assure absentee ballots are legit.

On March 20 2019 07:14 IgnE wrote:
repubs always win the florida recounts. havent republicans won basically every major recount since 2000? what are you talking about danglars? democrats known how to concede elections

In the overtime of the 2018 elections, the Left can’t decide whether it opposes casting doubt on election results or insists on it.

In the case of the Georgia gubernatorial election, narrowly lost by African-American activist Stacey Abrams, it’s unquestionably the latter. A cottage industry has grown up around declaring the outcome a stain on our nation.

Carol Anderson of Emory University deemed the state’s election system “neo-Jim Crow.” Dan Rather found the gubernatorial vote in Georgia “a deeply troubling challenge to American democracy,” and said if it were “a foreign country there would be a call for international inspectors.” Georgia has become a byword for “voter suppression,” which is presumed to be why Secretary of State Brian Kemp, a Republican, will soon occupy the governor’s mansion.

The critics advance myriad reasons why the result in Georgia isn’t legitimate:

They complain that Kemp ran for governor while he was still secretary of state. Yes, but Georgia’s constitution allows for that, and it’s been done before. In the 2000s, Democrat Cathy Cox ran for her party’s gubernatorial nomination while serving as secretary of state. Kemp ran for re-election twice while simultaneously occupying the office, with no one seriously alleging malfeasance. In any case, localities count the votes, not the secretary of state’s office.

They say Kemp’s confessed his true, untoward feelings about voting when he expressed “concern” about Abrams pushing absentee voting. But the full quote from Kemp speaking at a Republican event is: “They have just an unprecedented number of [absentee ballot requests], which is something that continues to concern us, especially if everybody uses and exercises their right to vote — which they absolutely can — and mail those ballots in, we gotta have heavy turnout to offset that.” Trying to motivate your side to vote to counteract the other side’s voting is the opposite of voter suppression.

They allege that Kemp shut down polling places. It’s true, according to The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, that 214 precincts have closed in Georgia since 2012. It’s just not the handiwork of Brian Kemp. Counties make the decisions about whether or not to shutter polling places. It’s usually cash-strapped rural areas that consolidate precincts to eliminate underutilized polling places and locations that don’t comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act.

When a controversy exploded over a proposal to close seven of nine precincts in tiny, majority-black Randolph County, Kemp came out publicly and opposed the plan. (As it happens, Randolph voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016, but Donald Trump won five of the seven precincts slated for closure.)

They charge that Kemp kept people in voting limbo over minor registration errors. Under Georgia’s so-called exact-match law, if information on a voter registration doesn’t match a driver’s license, state ID card or Social Security records, the voter has a little over two years to clear up the discrepancy. Until then, the voter is put into the “pending file” (53,000 people were on it). This isn’t a prohibition from voting. If the voter shows up at a polling place with an ID verifying his information (mandatory in Georgia, regardless), there isn’t an issue.

Finally, they object to Kemp’s enforcement of Georgia’s “use it or lose it” rule. A similar law in Ohio was upheld by the Supreme Court earlier this year. It’s hardly punitive. If you haven’t voted for three years, you get notified in the mail. If you don’t reply and then don’t vote in the next two federal elections, you are struck from the rolls. This happened to an estimated 100,000 people last year who, judging by their behavior, were nonvoters rather than voters.

Every indication is that Stacey Abrams lost fair and square in an election where everyone knew the rules beforehand, and they weren’t unreasonable. She’s nonetheless being hailed for not conceding, and her loss will always be taken as an indictment of Georgia rather than the verdict of voters.

On March 20 2019 06:18 Plansix wrote:

They didn’t concede because they felt there were clear cases of voter suppression and made substantive arguments that the incumbent governor abused their position to suppress the vote.

When a controversy exploded over a proposal to close seven of nine precincts in tiny, majority-black Randolph County, Kemp came out publicly and opposed the plan. (As it happens, Randolph voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016, but Donald Trump won five of the seven precincts slated for closure.)

“Although state law gives localities broad authority in setting precinct boundaries and polling locations,” Kemp said in a statement, “we strongly urged local officials to abandon this effort and focus on preparing for a secure, accessible, and fair election for voters this November.”

In a presentation to county residents, however, the consultant who developed the plan cited Kemp as a supporter.

On March 20 2019 09:19 Ben... wrote:
Exactly. I have no comments on Florida, but in Georgia there was substantial evidence that Brian Kemp was doing everything in his power to tilt the election in his favour, which, since he was Secretary of State and was in charge of the election he himself was taking part in (and he refused to remove himself from running it until after the election was over), was easy to believe given that he lost multiple court cases over issues regarding voter registration.

Chris Hayes had Stacey Abrams on his podcast a few weeks back and the election was one of the topics (which they start talking about roughly half way into the podcast). She's basically been butting heads with Brian Kemp for years now, and in context to all of the arguments she gives, her claim that it wasn't a fair election is pretty compelling.

Here's the podcast (and a transcript!): www.nbcnews.com

edit: ah yes, the National Review. A source only slightly less biased than Fox News itself. Of course there's no mention that Kemp blocked registration of over half a million voters in 2017, shortly before announcing his governorship run, a majority blocked registrations being people of colour. Or mention that he lost a court case over using the "exact match" rule that they refer to in the article and that the rule was deemed illegal (partly because people who purportedly had mistakes were never notified to correct them, leaving them off the registration rolls, and despite Georgia's population being roughly only 1/3 African American, over 70% of flagged registrations were African American). Or that many of the polling stations that were closed just happened to be in areas that were majority POC.

This quote from the National Review piece:
Is particularly deceptive because he only went back on closing the precincts after an extreme amount of negative press over it on an international scale. This Guardian piece breaks down why closing the precincts could have been so damaging. A big chunk of the population in that county does not drive, so having nowhere accessible to walk to to vote at basically shuts down that portion of the population's ability to vote.

This particular quote is pretty damning:
So basically, Kemp was saying one thing while doing another, given that he was supporting the plan that proposed closing the 7 precincts.

CBS46 obtained Mike Malone's termination letter. He was a consultant hired by the county, but after news surfaced about his donations to current Republican Gubernatorial candidate Brian Kemp, his proposal to shut polls, and its impact on black voters, he was canned.

Less than 24 hours before Randolph County's Board of Elections prepares to vote on the controversial proposal that could disenfranchise black voters, Malone, who suggested shuttering seven of the county's nine polling locations, was terminated and paid more than $2,200.

Malone's proposal claims Randolph County's voting spots don't comply with the American with Disabilities Act because of poor parking access and problematic bathrooms.

But leaders with Georgia's Legislative Black Caucus called the violations a sham and urged officials to not move forward with the plan.

If approved, the shuttering of the polls would shut down 75 percent of the county's polling places. According to the ACLU, just over 30 percent of Randolph County residents live below the poverty line and are less likely to own a car or have public transportation to reach the polls.

We reached out to Kemp's campaign. He calls the story nonsense, adding that he was the first elected official to reject closing the polls.

On March 20 2019 10:20 Plansix wrote:
Kemp might not have closed any polls this election, but there was some shady non-sense being thrown around in the lead up to that election. It is easy to be on the record saying no polling places will be closed, while efforts are under way to close polling places that you have zero intention of stopping.

https://www.cbs46.com/news/consultant-loses-job-over-plan-critics-say-will-make-it/article_6716a671-0b7a-58e7-af3e-d039bd609249.html



And there has been a state wide effort to close down polling locations since the voters rights act was gutted. So any claim that the Republicans and Kemp are not invested in closing down polling locations is false. They have been very active since 2012 and have controlled the governor's office that entire time.

On March 20 2019 10:34 Introvert wrote:
An amazing statement, considering you are presenting "facts" that are almost completely irrelevant and sliding by the fact that Abrams is lying to the nation and to the people of Georgia. Yet you can't spare an moment of condemnation for that.