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On February 26 2019 07:15 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2019 07:07 Plansix wrote:
I’m waiting to see what hammer dropping on China looks like. Maybe Trump screws over the farming industry more than he already has. You don’t actually think that China is escaping the trade war unscathed, do you? Ofcourse not, but who is going to blink first? A dictatorship in full control of their country, or a democracy with workers crying about lost business?
China can afford to take hits here, because they know they will win in the end.
Edit.
The one thing I agree with xDaunt on is that contradicting your President in front of the press and foreign negotiations is bad. Real bad.
The problem is also that I can understand why he is doing it, because normally you would sort this out behind closed doors but Trump is Trump and there is no talking to him so the only option is to talk to everyone else through the press.
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On February 26 2019 07:15 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2019 07:07 Plansix wrote:
I’m waiting to see what hammer dropping on China looks like. Maybe Trump screws over the farming industry more than he already has. You don’t actually think that China is escaping the trade war unscathed, do you?
I'm sure there are some losses, but I don't really give a shit how much we hurt China in a vain hope they will cut a new trade deal. I worry more about Americans being hurt than if we are inflicting enough damage to China. It is a foolish tactic, especially against a government has is not directly responsible its citizens through things like voting. And a government that is familiar with the US concepts like term limits and elections. They can and will outlast us if necessary. And at the end of the day, for what? China has already moved on to new markets for the soybeans. That market took a decade to open and won’t come back any time soon. Chinese buyers are not willing to deal with the whims of our political system. I’m just waiting to see what other industry gets screwed over and loses their buyers in China on Trump’s quest to seem tough on the international stage.
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On February 26 2019 07:36 JimmiC wrote:
You know what hurt China a lot more than a trade war? If America invested hard in a more circular economy, and less single use cheap shit. If USA invested big in robotics and manufacturing and got people to be more interested in quality instead of quantity it could be manufactured over here instead of over there.
Sounds like a pipe dream I know, but Germany is a big manufacturing country and they have high wages. I don't think it is impossible.
The problem is that there will always be more cheap shit and poorer countries willing to make it. China isn't the cheapest nation to build things in anymore. its surrounded by nations that are willing and able to make their people work for less and for less. Eastern europe is a prime example for the EU and india maybe mexico might be for the US.
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On February 26 2019 07:07 Plansix wrote:
I’m waiting to see what hammer dropping on China looks like. Maybe Trump screws over the farming industry more than he already has.
I think a huge hammer would be cracking down on copyright violations of products sold on US soil+ a blanket ban on any huawei goods due to many obvious and plentiful ongoing theft of other companies product. Just look at their new phone a more expensive but obvious copy of Samsung's foldable phone design.
Roll in the car companies in various nations haveing their designs stolen for versions sold in china and you've got a momentum of the developing world rolling against them.
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On February 26 2019 07:36 JimmiC wrote:
You know what hurt China a lot more than a trade war? If America invested hard in a more circular economy, and less single use cheap shit. If USA invested big in robotics and manufacturing and got people to be more interested in quality instead of quantity it could be manufactured over here instead of over there.
Sounds like a pipe dream I know, but Germany is a big manufacturing country and they have high wages. I don't think it is impossible.
You do realize that this is exactly what Trump's policies are addressing, right? One of the major successes of his trade policies (whether it be the actual trade war with China or the USMCA) is the curtailment of US investment in China. He's systematically shutting off all of the back doors through which cheap Chinese shit gets dumped in the US. And in doing this, he is stoking the ire of many American corporate interests that have profited hugely from the old way of doing business (namely, the regime in which countries get to abuse our free trade policies). This, perhaps more than any other, is the defining issue of the Trump administration and also one of the biggest reasons why Trump is so hated politically.
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United States42682 Posts
On February 26 2019 07:55 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2019 07:36 JimmiC wrote:
You know what hurt China a lot more than a trade war? If America invested hard in a more circular economy, and less single use cheap shit. If USA invested big in robotics and manufacturing and got people to be more interested in quality instead of quantity it could be manufactured over here instead of over there.
Sounds like a pipe dream I know, but Germany is a big manufacturing country and they have high wages. I don't think it is impossible. You do realize that this is exactly what Trump's policies are addressing, right? One of the major successes of his trade policies (whether it be the actual trade war with China or the USMCA) is the curtailment of US investment in China. He's systematically shutting off all of the back doors through which cheap Chinese shit gets dumped in the US. And in doing this, he is stoking the ire of many American corporate interests that have profited hugely from the old way of doing business (namely, the regime in which countries get to abuse our free trade policies). This, perhaps more than any other, is the defining issue of the Trump administration and also one of the biggest reasons why Trump is so hated politically.
It’s not though. It’s just some vague stuff about how they’re beating us. You’re going the classic Trump supporter thing of reading your own beliefs into what is, essentially, white noise.
You’ve got to remember he made the same noises about Germany which doesn’t even exist as an international trade entity. He just makes noises which people project onto.
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On February 26 2019 07:51 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2019 07:46 Sermokala wrote:On February 26 2019 07:36 JimmiC wrote:
You know what hurt China a lot more than a trade war? If America invested hard in a more circular economy, and less single use cheap shit. If USA invested big in robotics and manufacturing and got people to be more interested in quality instead of quantity it could be manufactured over here instead of over there.
Sounds like a pipe dream I know, but Germany is a big manufacturing country and they have high wages. I don't think it is impossible. The problem is that there will always be more cheap shit and poorer countries willing to make it. China isn't the cheapest nation to build things in anymore. its surrounded by nations that are willing and able to make their people work for less and for less. Eastern europe is a prime example for the EU and india maybe mexico might be for the US. Yes in a race to the bottom the poorer countries will have the cheapest stuff. I think the goal should be to not promote/buy the cheapest shit.
Theoretically yes but economics is filled with examples of problems like this.
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On February 26 2019 07:52 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2019 07:07 Plansix wrote:
I’m waiting to see what hammer dropping on China looks like. Maybe Trump screws over the farming industry more than he already has. I think a huge hammer would be cracking down on copyright violations of products sold on US soil+ a blanket ban on any huawei goods due to many obvious and plentiful ongoing theft of other companies product. Just look at their new phone a more expensive but obvious copy of Samsung's foldable phone design. Roll in the car companies in various nations haveing their designs stolen for versions sold in china and you've got a momentum of the developing world rolling against them.
Look, I am all for the US becoming smarter and realizing that sending all of our tech manufacturing to China is kinda dumb because they are just going to steal our designs. That Amazon opening up to Chinese vendors just flooded the store with Chinese knock offs. But that route will be a shock to teh system that will do just as much harm to us as it will do to China. And again, I think they can take the hit more than we can.
Trade wars sound good, but they just end up hurting everyone equally and no one gets what they want. There is a reason we haven't really done this for 100 years and it took a president with a poor understanding of history who also doesn't listen to anyone to get us back to trade wars.
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On February 26 2019 07:55 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2019 07:36 JimmiC wrote:
You know what hurt China a lot more than a trade war? If America invested hard in a more circular economy, and less single use cheap shit. If USA invested big in robotics and manufacturing and got people to be more interested in quality instead of quantity it could be manufactured over here instead of over there.
Sounds like a pipe dream I know, but Germany is a big manufacturing country and they have high wages. I don't think it is impossible. You do realize that this is exactly what Trump's policies are addressing, right? One of the major successes of his trade policies (whether it be the actual trade war with China or the USMCA) is the curtailment of US investment in China. He's systematically shutting off all of the back doors through which cheap Chinese shit gets dumped in the US. And in doing this, he is stoking the ire of many American corporate interests that have profited hugely from the old way of doing business (namely, the regime in which countries get to abuse our free trade policies). This, perhaps more than any other, is the defining issue of the Trump administration and also one of the biggest reasons why Trump is so hated politically.
The same corporations he's bent over backwards to give a massive tax cut to, in exactly the same manner as the 'old way of business' for decades? You've always very vague when you go to these talking points and I guess it's hard not to be. But do you have any specific ideas on which corporate interests are against him and which for him? Because it seems to me he has a lot of corporate support as well as detractors... which is true of most presidents, no? Obama wasn't popular with all the big corporations either.
Trump the anti-establishment guy is a phantasm to me. I've never seen evidence of his existence, just vociferous claims from his supporters that he does. Unless by 'anti-establishment' you mean 'anti-doing things that work'. In which case he's anti-establishment as all hell.
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I got a 1k tax hike... F this lol
+ Show Spoiler +Don't really have a problem with tax hike, but it's hilarious how bad the trump tax cut is. Or how good if you are rich
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On February 26 2019 08:16 ragz_gt wrote:I got a 1k tax hike... F this lol + Show Spoiler +Don't really have a problem with tax hike, but it's hilarious how bad the trump tax cut is. Or how good if you are rich
yeah my taxes are higher after the tax cuts too, I look forward to seeing how many people this winds up being true for.
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On February 26 2019 00:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2019 23:37 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Watch the well oiled machine and top deal maker at work. President and The United States Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer seem to have completely different views on what they have agreed on. Ending with 'ok ok we'll never use the term memorandum of understanding again'
Meanwhile the Chinese vice premier Liu He sitting there can't hide a chuckle of laughter at this absurd situation.
Never thought I'd actually say this, but Trump is right and the other guy is wrong about an MOU. "In business, an MOU is typically a legally non-binding agreement between two (or more) parties, that outlines terms and details of a mutual understanding or agreement, noting each party's requirements and responsibilities -- but without establishing a formal, legally enforceable contract (though an MOU is often a first step towards the development of a formal contract).[1][2]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorandum_of_understanding
From the very same page:
In international relations, MoUs fall under the broad category of treaties and should be registered in the United Nations treaty collection. In practice and in spite of the United Nations Office of Legal Affairs' insistence that registration be done to avoid 'secret diplomacy', MoUs are sometimes kept confidential. As a matter of law, the title of MoU does not necessarily mean the document is binding or not binding under international law. To determine whether a particular MoU is meant to be a legally binding document (i.e., a treaty), one needs to examine the parties’ intent as well as the signatories' position (e.g., Minister of Foreign Affairs vs. Minister of Environment). A careful analysis of the wording will also clarify the exact nature of the document.
With this in mind the conversation becomes much clearer, and, to the surprise of nobody except perhaps xDaunt, Lighthizer is the one who is correct and Trump is the one who is ignorant.
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On February 26 2019 08:36 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2019 08:16 ragz_gt wrote:I got a 1k tax hike... F this lol + Show Spoiler +Don't really have a problem with tax hike, but it's hilarious how bad the trump tax cut is. Or how good if you are rich yeah my taxes are higher after the tax cuts too, I look forward to seeing how many people this winds up being true for.
I've been reading this quite a bit recently and it seems "Hey what the fuck, my taxes are higher despite the tax cut" is really starting to pick up steam. This could get pretty ugly for the Republicans if it does indeed become a thing. As much as Trump lies about everything and his voters just believe it, it'll be pretty hard for him to claim he's cut everyone's taxes in the election next year when his voters know that their past two tax seasons either cost them more money or had them receive less of a return than the past.
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My return was smaller this year than last, and I don't make much. I dunno if the tax cut passes the smell test.
You know, assuming you woke up today and didn't notice what was written into the alleged "tax cut" in the first place.
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United States42682 Posts
Refunds don’t mean much, effective tax rate is what matters. A lot of people would rather pay a $10 fee with a $20 and get $10 back than a $5 with a $10.
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On February 26 2019 10:17 NewSunshine wrote:
My return was smaller this year than last, and I don't make much. I dunno if the tax cut passes the smell test.
You know, assuming you woke up today and didn't notice what was written into the alleged "tax cut" in the first place.
You do know your "tax return" has zero to do with your tax rate, right? Also, while I certainly don't like taxes, there is some primordial satisfaction with the people in progressive states that have high tax rates which have been subsidized with SALT deductions no longer able to. You get to see the economic reality of what you vote for in your state. Can't say I'm crying a river there.
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part of the equation is part of the tax "overhaul" was cosmetic because of lower withholdings which showed more money in paychecks. while this is good in theory because it means you're not giving uncle sam a interest-free loan, people like that refund for psychological reasons.
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EPT
