On June 26 2015 12:08 Cascade wrote: So all these people that complain about all the social justice warriors, do they identify themselves as social unjustice warriors? I actually struggle to understand how "social justice warrior" can be turned into an insult. People don't want social justice? I just find it a bit odd choice of phrase.
It's meant to be a sort of sarcastic term (like keyboard warrior or white knight). Unfortunately, because it's thrown around at basically anyone who calls something racist or sexist, it's become entirely useless. The sarcasm has essentially been lost, and it really does seem to refer to people who fight for social justice. It's now used by people who want to ignore social issues and complain about political correctness.
Companies are banning it because it's a fiscal decision based on the current culture.
That's a PR move on their part. There is no law in place banning the flag, and if you want to make one and fly it, there will be no legal ramifications for it.
I don't care if the culture wants to ban something, as long as the law doesn't do it.
That flag is still valid if flying over the pitiful Army of the Tennessee. Recently the flag is much better known than any of the other symbols of Confederacy, especially since it is much more distinct from the US banner of the day.
But in a way, its modern symbolism is representative of Southern culture in its entirety, including its open racism.
Well, I guess this exercise of expunging this symbol is a lot like the Civil War. When moral outrage (abolitionists) collides with economic interests (plantation society) you get some ridiculous outcomes (4 years and half a million dead).
straight, cis-gender, white, males, are losing the affirmative action for them that was America for 200+ years, people are going to be grumpy about it.
It's just one of those things. They had a sweet deal, now they have to take a fairer deal. Of course some are going to feel like they are getting the short side ("Why can't I say n****r?!?", "my family was poor too", "women have it easy when..."). They've never actually been on the short side. Any time they get anywhere near it they lose their shit. Look at how they behave at the thought they might have to look a bit harder to find a dumbass symbol of hate.
Stormfront and other supremacy groups are a bastion for SJW-bashers where they all laugh about the absurdity of the complaints of the 'PC' crowd all the while complaining about how a country with disproportionate Christian white male representation in practically any positions of power (especially in the Republican party) is being taken over/ruined by blacks, Muslims, liberals, Mexicans, etc...
It's absurd, it's racist, it's sad.
We all pretend like it's not right out there and people think they are clever using coded language it's what I've come to expect.
Then people who are just ignorant go using the same rhetoric thinking they are being edgy and clever in getting the same message out with the words people accept, usually in the form of an unbelievably stupid question.
(I suppose since I'm 3 of 4 of those I should say "we" instead of "they" for the first paragraph)
Not sure about the overall best course of action. Given the situation, it seems reasonable for a business to drop confederate flag stuff for a time while you review the situation (partially a cover to stall until the public settles on the best solution, partially genuine need to review). You can always bring it back on sale later. It's also cheaper to let other people figure out policy than to try to get it right yourself.
On June 26 2015 14:02 GreenHorizons wrote: straight, cis-gender, white, males, are losing the affirmative action for them that was America for 200+ years, people are going to be grumpy about it.
It's just one of those things. They had a sweet deal, now they have to take a fairer deal. Of course some are going to feel like they are getting the short side ("Why can't I say n****r?!?", "my family was poor too", "women have it easy when..."). They've never actually been on the short side. Any time they get anywhere near it they lose their shit. Look at how they behave at the thought they might have to look a bit harder to find a dumbass symbol of hate.
Stormfront and other supremacy groups are a bastion for SJW-bashers where they all laugh about the absurdity of the complaints of the 'PC' crowd all the while complaining about how a country with disproportionate Christian white male representation in practically any positions of power (especially in the Republican party) is being taken over/ruined by blacks, Muslims, liberals, Mexicans, etc...
It's absurd, it's racist, it's sad.
We all pretend like it's not right out there and people think they are clever using coded language it's what I've come to expect.
Then people who are just ignorant go using the same rhetoric thinking they are being edgy and clever in getting the same message out with the words people accept, usually in the form of an unbelievably stupid question.
(I suppose since I'm 3 of 4 of those I should say "we" instead of "they" for the first paragraph)
And doing anything with the confederate flag will somehow either fix or reinforce any of what you said?
For someone who spends a lot of time ranting on this site about how token words and efforts mean absolutely nothing compared to real issues and problems, you sure are putting a lot of weight into a token effort that will have no effect on real issues and problem.
Hilarious thing is that specialty flag stores up here are removing the Confederate flag from sale...so, uh, nice job US for spending the last week glorifying historical replicas to other nations?
Conservative pundit Ann Coulter said on Tuesday night that South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley (R) is unqualified to deal with her state’s use of the Confederate flag because she’s an "immigrant."
“I’d really like to like Nikki Haley since she is a Republican, but on the other hand, she’s an immigrant and does not understand America’s history,” Coulter told host Kennedy on her Fox Business show Tuesday evening.
“Well, she doesn’t,” Coulter responded. “The Confederate flag we’re talking about never flew over an official Confederate building.”
“It was a battle flag — it is to honor Robert E. Lee,” she added. “Anyone who knows the first thing about military history knows that there is no greater army that ever took the field than the Confederate Army.”
Haley's parents are Indian Sikhs who came to the United States before she was born in Bamberg, S.C.
The governor urged her state’s lawmakers on Monday to remove the Confederate flag from a memorial on the state Capitol grounds in Columbia, responding to an outcry after the mass shooting last week at a historically black church in Charleston.
“Today, we are here in a moment of unity in our state, without ill will, to say it’s time to move the flag from the Capitol grounds,” she said.
“We are not going to allow this symbol to divide us any longer,” Haley added. “The fact that it causes pain to so many is enough to move it from the Capitol grounds.”
South Carolina law dictates that a majority of state lawmakers must vote on whether the Confederate flag is raised or lowered.
Fresh controversy over the flag ignited in the wake of last week’s mass shooting last Wednesday evening at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church. Nine people were killed.
Dylann Storm Roof, the alleged shooter, reportedly uttered racial epithets before attacking Emanuel AME Church’s congregants and had been photographed with Confederate flag merchandise.
Coulter accused the Democratic Party of hypocrisy over their opposition to the Confederate flag.
“But if we’re going to remedy the sadness of the Confederate side of the Civil War, I think we need to abolish the Democratic Party,” she said.
“That’s a much more hateful symbol,” Coulter added of Democrats. “Even after the North, i.e. Republicans, won that war and finally got Democrats to give up slavery, Democrats continued to discriminate against black people for another 100 years.”
I am from Singapore, a country that is one of the least free in the world with regards to speech. However I have no issues with having a restricted freedom of speech, because I enjoy the trade offs of having religious and racial stability in the country.
What I see in the western world are calls for my country to respect the rights to free speech. In my opinion, having this freedom comes with responsibility, and I do not see many other societies respecting it. There are irresponsible racial/religious/political remarks/insults/cartoons, all justified in the name of free speech, meant to cause tensions or hate against various communities. Charlie hebdo and many other incidents happened as a result of it. History has repeated time and time again, but nothing substantial is done to prevent it.
My country practises censorship for the greater good of the public. Contrary to what the outside may think, we are able to criticise the government or politicians, provided these criticisms are based on true facts. It means if you were to criticise someone, you jolly well be able to back it up or it is akin to defamation. I don't see it as censorship, I see it as being responsible with our speech. In fact, I don't even feel restricted because I know I can say whatever I want as long as it is true.
I think the western world could exercise a little of such responsibility.
[Edit] Sometimes I wonder, why would one feel restricted with censorship of things that may serve to create hate against certain communities. I mean it is not like you would be doing those things, unless of course you actually want to.
Also I think the freedom of speech the western world practises is an extreme end, whereas the censorship practiced by nations such as china are on the other extreme. I like the middle ground.
as a certain dead white male imperialist (probably racist) said, 'may your chains rest lightly upon you'
There are irresponsible racial/religious/political remarks/insults/cartoons, all justified in the name of free speech, meant to cause tensions or hate against various communities. Charlie hebdo and many other incidents happened as a result of it.
smart take
Also I think the freedom of speech the western world practises is an extreme end, whereas the censorship practiced by nations such as china are on the other extreme. I like the middle ground.
Responsibility... perhaps. Ignorance and hate, instead are what I believe to be the issue. I'm all for freedom of speech. What bothers me is why idiots like Ann Coulter are so popular and accepted. After all, without an audience she wouldn't have a job. The solution, in my opinion, is systemic rather than symbolic. Abolishing ignorant teachings from public schools, like I mentioned. After all, any symbol can be meaningless and ironic rhetoric, just like the Virginia State Motto I referenced before. You have to get to that point first though, the rest will take care of itself.
On June 26 2015 13:58 TanGeng wrote: That flag is still valid if flying over the pitiful Army of the Tennessee. Recently the flag is much better known than any of the other symbols of Confederacy, especially since it is much more distinct from the US banner of the day.
But in a way, its modern symbolism is representative of Southern culture in its entirety, including its open racism.
Well, I guess this exercise of expunging this symbol is a lot like the Civil War. When moral outrage (abolitionists) collides with economic interests (plantation society) you get some ridiculous outcomes (4 years and half a million dead).
As a white male from the south, your post reeks of ignorance.
On June 26 2015 13:58 TanGeng wrote: That flag is still valid if flying over the pitiful Army of the Tennessee. Recently the flag is much better known than any of the other symbols of Confederacy, especially since it is much more distinct from the US banner of the day.
But in a way, its modern symbolism is representative of Southern culture in its entirety, including its open racism.
Well, I guess this exercise of expunging this symbol is a lot like the Civil War. When moral outrage (abolitionists) collides with economic interests (plantation society) you get some ridiculous outcomes (4 years and half a million dead).
As a white male from the south, your post reeks of ignorance.
To be fair though, all white males from the south should know that you can't understand american history unless you are an at least 3 generations US citizen, so have some understanding for the ignorance.
On June 26 2015 13:47 Barrin wrote: Is there even any precedence for banning any sort of [physical] symbol in the US?
I cannot think of any.
We take "free spech" both liberally and seriously here; even money is considered a form of speech.
What would happen to all the people with confederate flag tattoos if it were a banned symbol?
No, can't think of a precedent. I think the USA is heading down the wrong path, a path towards authoritarianism.
The real sad thing is how so much media attention was given to this event when there were 54 shootings in Chicago (10 deaths) that weekend and thats "normal" for Chicago. http://gawker.com/5569299/chicagos-weekend-shooting-tally-10-dead-44-injured The shootings happened in the "bad" parts of town (read : black majority).If there's to be a national discussion on a rare racist event as what happened in the church where is the national debate about gang violence in places like Chicago which regularly sees over a dozen dead every weekend? Are the nine black deaths in S.C. worth "more" than the 10 black deaths in Chicago over that weekend? I guess it sells more papers or something.
Uhm... Shot people due to gang shootings or "normal" crime are obviously not the same as a fucking bigot entering a church killing innocent people because he didn't like their skin color.
Both things are bad, but one is clearly worse, if you can't see that I don't know what else to tell you.
On June 26 2015 18:04 Velr wrote: Uhm... Shot people due to gang shootings or "normal" crime are obviously not the same as a fucking bigot entering a church killing innocent people because he didn't like their skin color.
Both things are bad, but one is clearly worse, if you can't see that I don't know what else to tell you.
But he has a point that gang violence is often undermediatized, which leads to its normalization. And normalizing violence is never good.
On June 26 2015 05:45 darthfoley wrote: While I support banning confederate flags from any government buildings (biggest no brainer of all time), this whole "Apple banning civil war games" is so fucking dumb lol.
Most people also forget that four states in the Union had legalized slavery. It's just a interesting fact many people seem to gloss over talking about the Civil War
Well ... today's decisions do not need to be based on what the flag was or stood for when it was used 150 years ago. It is what the symbol stands for today that should drive the decisions.
A kid waving the flag and babbling about white supremacy maybe doesn't know the details of the political and economical situation in the early XIXth century and probably doesn't care. But if everyone agrees waving that flag means you're soon going to start shooting people, something has to be done.
Then again, allowing criminals to tag themselves as such is a easy way to keep track. Without their symbols they may still be dangerous, but they become more difficult to spot.
Not sure what the problem is. A business can choose to display the flag or not. Currently it's a good PR move to remove it. It's not like there is a law that forbids the flag right?
EPT
You have to get to that point first though, the rest will take care of itself.
