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Canadian Politics Mega-thread - Page 104

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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12179 Posts
March 23 2025 12:13 GMT
#2061
As we dive deeper into the far right rabbit hole it's going to impact what is being defended. For most people on this side it's not really important what they're defending, it's more important that the libs are wrong. Twenty years ago it would have been wrong to call a Republican a racist, the left is just being crazy, it's not like a Republican would do a nazi salute at a rally. Today they're doing nazi salutes at rallies but we still have to disagree with the libs so, it's not like they would create concentration camps for immigrants or whatever. And in case they do that one day, there'll be another reason why we're wrong.
No will to live, no wish to die
Vivax
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
21978 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-03-23 16:43:53
March 23 2025 16:25 GMT
#2062
On March 23 2025 20:08 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2025 16:21 Falling wrote:
His arm motions do not provide evidence he aligns with Adolf Hitler.

Not responsive to the question.

I did not ask if Elon aligned with Hitler. Nor did I state that he did.
Is it a Seig Heil? Or is it random flapping of the arms that just about anybody would do if we kept a camera on them for long enough?

We can guess as to his motivations afterwards but we cannot even establish as simple factual question as to what are eyes physically saw much less speculate as to their meaning.

But you'd rather deflect to Justin who I think is a twit but likely not a racist one.

Prince Harry once famously wore a Nazi uniform as part of a fancy dress party and got criticised tons. Ironically by much of the same press that would subsequently launch a tabloid hate campaign against his wife, which many believe is at least partly due to her not being some 100% ‘English rose’ stereotype.

For me such a thing, or going blackface in your youth are 100% questionable calls, yeah pretty insensitive. But really the kind of thing you can apologise for, not do again and it’s no big deal if the rest of your behaviour isn’t atrocious.

One thing I don’t recall much of were defences like ‘it wasn’t a Nazi uniform’, or ‘it wasn’t actually blackface’.

It’s so fucking weird man. Ah well, such is the current lay of the land, I suppose we’re just going to have to get used to it at this rate

And just one more thing… I don’t recall Colombo going around Seig Heiling. Sorry, couldn’t resist.


We have blackface as tradition around here... Around Christmas when one of the kids has to go as one of the three kings he paints his face black sometimes, or at school plays etc.. It was really just an hysterical angle to go on about an issue that wasn't one imo... At a costume party.
I think the average person around here would argue it's more anti-racist than racist.

It's one count to look at someone's biography and correctly deduce what they most likely are and another to replace all of that with the part they're playing at a given moment.
The nazi uniform on Harry could have been edgelordism or a subtle hint that the royal family approves of eugenics. Maybe both. Or it was for attention catching etc.

When someone offers you a slice of information about someone else with their own narrative, you cannot avoid confronting the content without being outed as having an agenda.

If Musk says the Nazis did good things first and Sieg Heils later and...He's a tech ceo who cannot afford slip ups... It's not someone else who told the narrative. He put it out there himself.

Unless he had a figurative gun pointed at him and was under duress. Ahem.

Does he hate minorities believing they should be radically eradicated? Does he believe the government should micromanage the individual? Is he a nationalist supremacist? Using advanced technology to gain an edge in a new form of warfare?

There's probably more boxes you can tick off until you reach the full picture but those are important.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42691 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-03-23 16:29:59
March 23 2025 16:26 GMT
#2063
On March 23 2025 12:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2025 11:41 KwarK wrote:
On March 23 2025 09:02 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
I'm also cool with Musk moving his arms around.

Such a weird thing to say.

You’re either trying to say that you think Nazi salutes are cool but you just couldn’t bring yourself to say that or you’re trying to say that Elon should be allowed to move his arms which is a batshit crazy thing to say in general.

You are so fucking weird.

got nuttin' to say about the Trudeau family...and
you do not have a direct rebuttal. so you resort to this.

I resort to responding directly to a crazy thing that you said?
Yes. Yes I do.

You're a coward who wants desperately to defend what he did but lacks the courage to admit what he did and so you have to pretend that the thing that he did twice in a row was a random arm tick that could have happened to anyone but somehow doesn't happen to anyone but him and he does it twice.

Elon has previously done "my heart goes out to you". Here it is at 12 seconds in.


It looks a little different from the straight arm straight fingers classic Nazi salute.
https://youtube.com/shorts/R_6dVlz6mug?si=DkeIj4SGP1QzoOc8

If you want to defend a Nazi salute then have a little fucking backbone, have the courage of your convictions, defend the Nazi salute. But what you're doing here is just embarrassing, you so desperately want to defend it that you're contorting yourself into knots but you're not willing to actually say it. People who don't feel a desperate need to defend Nazi salutes just go "yep, that's clearly a Nazi salute, don't support that". People with convictions who want to defend Nazi salutes go "yep, that's clearly a Nazi salute, love it". But you're the kind of pond slime that can neither condemn Nazis nor own their defence of Nazis.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16710 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-03-24 16:47:54
March 24 2025 16:25 GMT
#2064
I'd like to see massive income tax cuts along with an increase in GST to make up the difference. The Conservative guy just announced an income tax cut.
On March 24 2025 01:26 KwarK wrote:
If you want to defend a Nazi salute then have a little fucking backbone, have the courage of your convictions, defend the Nazi salute. But what you're doing here is just embarrassing, you so desperately want to defend it that you're contorting yourself into knots but you're not willing to actually say it

I think Musk and Falk were just flapping their arms around and they spend a lot of time on camera.

Also, none of this is evidence they align themselves with Hitler.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11350 Posts
March 24 2025 17:11 GMT
#2065
Who the hell 'flaps their arms around' anyways? Are we birds?

But considering that's a thing you think humans do on the regular, I encourage you to frequently flap your arms around exactly like Elon in public. (Exactly like Elon, mind you, and not Charlie the coward Kirk's fake imitation.) I'm sure everyone else will think it is just as benign. You might even get a return flap of the arms from an arm flap enjoyer of a particular sort.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25342 Posts
March 24 2025 18:39 GMT
#2066
On March 25 2025 01:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
I'd like to see massive income tax cuts along with an increase in GST to make up the difference. The Conservative guy just announced an income tax cut.
Show nested quote +
On March 24 2025 01:26 KwarK wrote:
If you want to defend a Nazi salute then have a little fucking backbone, have the courage of your convictions, defend the Nazi salute. But what you're doing here is just embarrassing, you so desperately want to defend it that you're contorting yourself into knots but you're not willing to actually say it

I think Musk and Falk were just flapping their arms around and they spend a lot of time on camera.

Also, none of this is evidence they align themselves with Hitler.

Why are you so in favour of swapping income tax out for sales tax incidentally?

Also when the fuck did my boy Falk/Colombo go around doing Nazi salutes? I neither recall this being a thing, nor does a cursory search find me anything, even from the most hysterical ‘SJW’ corners of the internet.

I’ve watched films depicting Nazi Germany where some of the actors being paid to be authentic don’t nail the Sieg Heil as convincingly as Musk on that occasion.

As innumerable people have said on this forum, it is what it is. Whether it means Musk = Nazi is another discussion.

In his modern world we going to re-litigate topics long thought settled? Is this where we’re going. I mean, did society ever really prove that the sky is blue, or that water is quite often wet?
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12179 Posts
March 24 2025 18:43 GMT
#2067
On March 25 2025 03:39 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2025 01:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
I'd like to see massive income tax cuts along with an increase in GST to make up the difference. The Conservative guy just announced an income tax cut.
On March 24 2025 01:26 KwarK wrote:
If you want to defend a Nazi salute then have a little fucking backbone, have the courage of your convictions, defend the Nazi salute. But what you're doing here is just embarrassing, you so desperately want to defend it that you're contorting yourself into knots but you're not willing to actually say it

I think Musk and Falk were just flapping their arms around and they spend a lot of time on camera.

Also, none of this is evidence they align themselves with Hitler.

Also when the fuck did my boy Falk/Colombo go around doing Nazi salutes? I neither recall this being a thing, nor does a cursory search find me anything, even from the most hysterical ‘SJW’ corners of the internet.


My guess is the opposite, the nazis found some clip of Falk doing something completely different and went "See it's the same as what Musk did". Can't be bothered to check tho.
No will to live, no wish to die
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25342 Posts
March 24 2025 21:00 GMT
#2068
On March 25 2025 03:43 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2025 03:39 WombaT wrote:
On March 25 2025 01:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
I'd like to see massive income tax cuts along with an increase in GST to make up the difference. The Conservative guy just announced an income tax cut.
On March 24 2025 01:26 KwarK wrote:
If you want to defend a Nazi salute then have a little fucking backbone, have the courage of your convictions, defend the Nazi salute. But what you're doing here is just embarrassing, you so desperately want to defend it that you're contorting yourself into knots but you're not willing to actually say it

I think Musk and Falk were just flapping their arms around and they spend a lot of time on camera.

Also, none of this is evidence they align themselves with Hitler.

Also when the fuck did my boy Falk/Colombo go around doing Nazi salutes? I neither recall this being a thing, nor does a cursory search find me anything, even from the most hysterical ‘SJW’ corners of the internet.


My guess is the opposite, the nazis found some clip of Falk doing something completely different and went "See it's the same as what Musk did". Can't be bothered to check tho.

Maybe my searching skills are diminishing in me old age, mayhaps someone will enlighten me
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10501 Posts
March 24 2025 23:29 GMT
#2069
On March 25 2025 02:11 Falling wrote:
Who the hell 'flaps their arms around' anyways? Are we birds?

But considering that's a thing you think humans do on the regular, I encourage you to frequently flap your arms around exactly like Elon in public. (Exactly like Elon, mind you, and not Charlie the coward Kirk's fake imitation.) I'm sure everyone else will think it is just as benign. You might even get a return flap of the arms from an arm flap enjoyer of a particular sort.


I’ve seen this argument a lot. The “well then you do it in public” gotcha in response to people that think Elon’s nazi salute was just an overstimulated autist flailing his arms. The problem is if you think about it for 5 seconds what you’re saying is “why don’t you intentionally do an unintentional Sieg Heil.” It makes no sense. You can’t intentionally do something unintentional. It’s like saying “why don’t you scream cocksucker at people” as a gotcha for someone saying a person with Tourette’s is not calling people cocksuckers.

For the record I think Elon was intentionally throwing Sieg Heils there. I just think if someone truly believes it’s an involuntary autism spasm then “you do it” is not the mic drop people seem to think it is.
Fleetfeet
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
Canada2556 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-03-24 23:46:54
March 24 2025 23:43 GMT
#2070
On March 25 2025 08:29 BlackJack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2025 02:11 Falling wrote:
Who the hell 'flaps their arms around' anyways? Are we birds?

But considering that's a thing you think humans do on the regular, I encourage you to frequently flap your arms around exactly like Elon in public. (Exactly like Elon, mind you, and not Charlie the coward Kirk's fake imitation.) I'm sure everyone else will think it is just as benign. You might even get a return flap of the arms from an arm flap enjoyer of a particular sort.


I’ve seen this argument a lot. The “well then you do it in public” gotcha in response to people that think Elon’s nazi salute was just an overstimulated autist flailing his arms. The problem is if you think about it for 5 seconds what you’re saying is “why don’t you intentionally do an unintentional Sieg Heil.” It makes no sense. You can’t intentionally do something unintentional. It’s like saying “why don’t you scream cocksucker at people” as a gotcha for someone saying a person with Tourette’s is not calling people cocksuckers.

For the record I think Elon was intentionally throwing Sieg Heils there. I just think if someone truly believes it’s an involuntary autism spasm then “you do it” is not the mic drop people seem to think it is.


I'd hope invoking autism as the source would imply he's socially awkward and doesn't understand what it means, not that he's got tourettes in his arms. The argument goes not that it was involuntary, but that it didn't mean the obvious and thereby wasn't a true nazi salute. "Well, you do it then" seems a reasonable counter to that line of thinking.

Your point stands in that the person doing it wouldn't have the 'autism' excuse and couldn't do it with the same alleged lack of understanding, but it does rule out the "its not a nazi salute" pretty cleanly.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12179 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-03-25 00:23:37
March 25 2025 00:21 GMT
#2071
I'm sure everyone - including BJ - already knows this but just for the record let's mention that of course the difference is that in the Tourette example this is how Tourette works, while in the real world example this is not how autism works.
No will to live, no wish to die
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13932 Posts
March 25 2025 00:42 GMT
#2072
On March 25 2025 08:29 BlackJack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2025 02:11 Falling wrote:
Who the hell 'flaps their arms around' anyways? Are we birds?

But considering that's a thing you think humans do on the regular, I encourage you to frequently flap your arms around exactly like Elon in public. (Exactly like Elon, mind you, and not Charlie the coward Kirk's fake imitation.) I'm sure everyone else will think it is just as benign. You might even get a return flap of the arms from an arm flap enjoyer of a particular sort.


I’ve seen this argument a lot. The “well then you do it in public” gotcha in response to people that think Elon’s nazi salute was just an overstimulated autist flailing his arms. The problem is if you think about it for 5 seconds what you’re saying is “why don’t you intentionally do an unintentional Sieg Heil.” It makes no sense. You can’t intentionally do something unintentional. It’s like saying “why don’t you scream cocksucker at people” as a gotcha for someone saying a person with Tourette’s is not calling people cocksuckers.

For the record I think Elon was intentionally throwing Sieg Heils there. I just think if someone truly believes it’s an involuntary autism spasm then “you do it” is not the mic drop people seem to think it is.

Its only stupid if you acknowledge that he did Sieg Heil twice at a right wing political rally in front of cheering people. Its not stupid if you deny that it was a sieg Heil, which most conservatives are trying to argue.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25342 Posts
March 25 2025 01:21 GMT
#2073
The whole autism angle is completely laughable. If anything the many folks I’ve known that end of the spectrum are more careful in their gesturing through not having as much of an intuitive grasp on social norms.

Yes, many a faux pas will be committed in a more fluid, improvisational social environment. For a speech you’ve plenty of time to prep and I dunno, consider if your wee gesture isn’t indistinguishable from a Sieg Heil? Not buying that.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10501 Posts
March 25 2025 04:36 GMT
#2074
On March 25 2025 10:21 WombaT wrote:
The whole autism angle is completely laughable. If anything the many folks I’ve known that end of the spectrum are more careful in their gesturing through not having as much of an intuitive grasp on social norms.

Yes, many a faux pas will be committed in a more fluid, improvisational social environment. For a speech you’ve plenty of time to prep and I dunno, consider if your wee gesture isn’t indistinguishable from a Sieg Heil? Not buying that.


He’s been jumping around stage and screaming like a banshee for months. I don’t think your friends being more careful with social gestures applies here.
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10501 Posts
March 25 2025 05:56 GMT
#2075
On March 25 2025 08:43 Fleetfeet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2025 08:29 BlackJack wrote:
On March 25 2025 02:11 Falling wrote:
Who the hell 'flaps their arms around' anyways? Are we birds?

But considering that's a thing you think humans do on the regular, I encourage you to frequently flap your arms around exactly like Elon in public. (Exactly like Elon, mind you, and not Charlie the coward Kirk's fake imitation.) I'm sure everyone else will think it is just as benign. You might even get a return flap of the arms from an arm flap enjoyer of a particular sort.


I’ve seen this argument a lot. The “well then you do it in public” gotcha in response to people that think Elon’s nazi salute was just an overstimulated autist flailing his arms. The problem is if you think about it for 5 seconds what you’re saying is “why don’t you intentionally do an unintentional Sieg Heil.” It makes no sense. You can’t intentionally do something unintentional. It’s like saying “why don’t you scream cocksucker at people” as a gotcha for someone saying a person with Tourette’s is not calling people cocksuckers.

For the record I think Elon was intentionally throwing Sieg Heils there. I just think if someone truly believes it’s an involuntary autism spasm then “you do it” is not the mic drop people seem to think it is.


I'd hope invoking autism as the source would imply he's socially awkward and doesn't understand what it means, not that he's got tourettes in his arms. The argument goes not that it was involuntary, but that it didn't mean the obvious and thereby wasn't a true nazi salute. "Well, you do it then" seems a reasonable counter to that line of thinking.

Your point stands in that the person doing it wouldn't have the 'autism' excuse and couldn't do it with the same alleged lack of understanding, but it does rule out the "its not a nazi salute" pretty cleanly.


The intention of the thing is exactly what makes it the thing. If the awkward flailing of the arms was not intended as a nazi salute and just incidentally looked like one, then it’s not a nazi salute.

You can point at something with your middle finger that doesn’t mean you’re flipping the bird, so to speak. “Go ahead and point your middle finger at your boss then” isn’t the gotcha that someone pointing with their middle finger was actually saying “fuck you.”

Lots of Asian cultures use the swastika as a symbol, that doesn’t mean they are using nazi symbolism. “You draw one then” isn’t some gotcha to prove that the symbol on a Buddhist temple is in fact a Nazi swastika.

Of course I need to repeat that I do think Elon was throwing Sieg Heils
Hat Trick of Today
Profile Joined February 2025
98 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-03-25 06:44:54
March 25 2025 06:24 GMT
#2076
Yeah the intent is what makes Musk’s gesture a clear Nazi salute. At best you could argue that he’s just trolling, not like that’s honestly a good thing.

If I started throwing my arms out into a position that looked similar to a Nazi salute, most people wouldn’t immediately assume that I’m a Nazi, especially if they’ve talked to me. They’d assume I just made an awkward gesture.

Which speaks to your point of intent. If someone was just throwing their arms around, then maybe there’s some plausible deniability. But Musk threw his entire body into those salutes not once but twice. He wasn’t flailing, he threw those salutes like how George Foreman threw those left hooks. Dude practiced that shit, it was more fluid than any presentation or dance he has ever done in his life.

Why Musk glazers and the truly dishonest are pointing to Musk’s so-called autism as the reason he threw out those hard H Nazi salutes is because of the intent. They know there is no plausible deniability even if Musk threw out a more flaccid Nazi salute because Musk spends 20 hours a day on Twitter being a reply guy to self admitted fascists and Nazi adjacent influencers, constantly asking the Jewish question whenever he gets pushback, and talking about eugenics whenever it gets brought up.

When I troll, I take a shit and then leave to live my life. I don’t spend 20 hours a day telling every fascist on Reddit “hmmmm you have interesting ideas I would like to sign up to your newsletter good sir”.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42691 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-03-25 08:17:49
March 25 2025 07:39 GMT
#2077
On March 25 2025 14:56 BlackJack wrote:
Of course I need to repeat that I do think Elon was throwing Sieg Heils

Then what point are you trying to make? That it's theoretically possible to imagine a world in which someone may be making a valid argument even though the real world is one in which they're not?
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28668 Posts
March 25 2025 10:08 GMT
#2078
On March 25 2025 08:29 BlackJack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2025 02:11 Falling wrote:
Who the hell 'flaps their arms around' anyways? Are we birds?

But considering that's a thing you think humans do on the regular, I encourage you to frequently flap your arms around exactly like Elon in public. (Exactly like Elon, mind you, and not Charlie the coward Kirk's fake imitation.) I'm sure everyone else will think it is just as benign. You might even get a return flap of the arms from an arm flap enjoyer of a particular sort.


I’ve seen this argument a lot. The “well then you do it in public” gotcha in response to people that think Elon’s nazi salute was just an overstimulated autist flailing his arms. The problem is if you think about it for 5 seconds what you’re saying is “why don’t you intentionally do an unintentional Sieg Heil.” It makes no sense. You can’t intentionally do something unintentional. It’s like saying “why don’t you scream cocksucker at people” as a gotcha for someone saying a person with Tourette’s is not calling people cocksuckers.

For the record I think Elon was intentionally throwing Sieg Heils there. I just think if someone truly believes it’s an involuntary autism spasm then “you do it” is not the mic drop people seem to think it is.


Saying 'it was a nazi salute but he didn't mean it as support of nazism' is different from 'it wasn't a nazi salute'. The 'you do it in public, then' is an attack on the 'it wasn't a nazi salute', not the 'it was a nazi salute but he didn't mean it as support of nazism'. The idea that it was 'involuntary flailing of arms' is honestly something I haven't seen before.
Moderator
Billyboy
Profile Joined September 2024
1017 Posts
March 25 2025 12:42 GMT
#2079
This is the classic pwning the libs Blackjack loves (along with a huge % of people on the left) it is just so extra dumb and extra offensive I hoped it would cure him (and others) instead of the double down. It is just like the guy who wore the super big boobs to get those dumb libs to make them support him, then the big reveal of pwnage. They try to take advantage of people trying to be nice to others. Just in this case it was so dumb/offensive no one "fell" for it. It is just so engrained in Blackjack to do this style of arguing that he can't help himself.

The analogy was his all time worst, and that is saying something. The reason that fallings example was actually good is if you go do this anywhere and claim autism you have a better chance of being punched in the face, or someone cheering for Nazis than you do anyone believing you have autism because everyone with half a brain knows that is not how it works. With the Tourette's example people know that is how it does work so it might actually work.

It is really sad that no stunt, no matter how stupid will cause the people who think this "pwning the libs is so cool" (which is basically trying to prove that being nice to others is oh so uncool) is dumb as shit. There is no jumping the shark on this one. And the people with Blackjacks perspective but that are dumber than him, which is basically describing the hardcore MAGA group, even think this stunt worked.

When this first happened and Blackjack said how it was obviously a sieg heil, I was pretty impressed and it gave him some more credibility. But that sure did not last long. It is like he can't help himself no matter how dumb it is he plants his flag and will argue to his death that actually the other side is wrong.

I wish it was just a right problem, and it is probably bigger on the right, but both the Dems and Reps have a real problem right now of simply fighting about everything regardless of what it is. You say this while I think the opposite is how actual policy is being made right now. And it is dumb as fuck.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44334 Posts
March 25 2025 13:25 GMT
#2080
Trying to excuse Elon Musk's Nazi salutes as an accidental, innocent, he-didn't-know-any-better consequence of having autism (or drawing an inappropriate parallel with involuntary compulsions from Tourette's) is medically inaccurate and callous and exactly the kind of crap I'd expect to hear from conservatives who already don't care to learn about how neurological disorders actually work in real life. This is just plain offensive to anyone who has autism, has Tourette's, or knows people with those conditions.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
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