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And all these new people coming in? they want to love games too.
A lot of them probably aren't even new people. If you've been playing games for a long ass time it's nice to get something different than yet another shooter or yet another RPG. If you combine that with getting older and having less time then doubling up with some narrative depth and personal meaning is a pretty good way to make the time spent feel efficient. In either case welcoming in new people (instead of harassing them) and a broader audience would only help get those games made.
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I totally agree (as a working gamer). I just wanted to make the point more directly towards women. Also, because I just love introducing non-gamers to games (when I get the time), but I always hesitate a bit for silly things like possible harassment, or like questions as to why none of the female characters are wearing proper clothes.
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On March 12 2015 05:43 Plansix wrote:
Also it should be pointed out that games are going to change as the current market gets older. Some game are being made with the idea that adult gamers(who have more disposable cash) have less time on their hands due to being adults. Its a fact that most parents can't play DA:I because its a fucking 70 hour game, but still want to spend money. Someone is going to make a game for them and the gaming press is going to cover it.
Its natural and part of a hobby growing with its expanding audience.
I'm noticing this myself. When I was in college (until Summer 2011) I played SC2 and WoW and that's pretty much it. I didn't really have the money to get many other games. When I graduated, between getting a better job and working a lot more hours, I started making 4x as much money as I did in school and was paying comparable amounts for rent and utilities, i.e. plenty of disposable income. Unfortunately for my wallet, this was also when I first jumped onto Steam.
Now, I have a house, am planning a wedding, and in the future maybe kids. Money is a lot tighter and I'm having to adjust my spending as a result. Buying three $60 titles in a month when I can only play for 3-4 hours a day maximum isn't really feasible and long-ass games really have to be great to get me to invest in them. The only "long" games I have completed in the last several years have been Dark Souls and Dark Souls 2. I've even stopped playing Dota (after 2,000 hours) because there are other games I want to play and I don't have the time to just lose myself in an hour long match anymore.
The demographics are changing as the first generation of gamers get older. People are just going to have to deal with that.
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On March 12 2015 05:51 Logo wrote:A lot of them probably aren't even new people. If you've been playing games for a long ass time it's nice to get something different than yet another shooter or yet another RPG. If you combine that with getting older and having less time then doubling up with some narrative depth and personal meaning is a pretty good way to make the time spent feel efficient. In either case welcoming in new people (instead of harassing them) and a broader audience would only help get those games made.
Like what? A recent game that been tried to make as female friendly is, DA:I, a complete financial disaster because instead of inventing new gameplay mechanics they focussed everything on making semi-deep characters, dumbing down the few things they hadn't already dumbed down in the previous game, and ofcourse it was a complete bug fest.
Another recent one, Far Cry 4, fun game, but basically the same game as Far Cry 3.
I've never seen any kind of overlap with games being made as friendly as possible to women and actually being creative.
What happens in a lot of cases is that in the focus of making a game as friendly to every possible group imaginable, they forget to actually make a good game.
As far as the player base goes, yeah, if you make it obvious you're a girl in a CoD game, you're gonna get called out for it, but this is more because it's a very visceral game that allows people to blow off (or in some cases create more) steam, and when people are in this state of mind they will use any perceived weakness as a form of verbal attacking, especially if you agitate them by actually responding. Maybe it sucks that as a girl you get insults specifically aimed at being female, I assure you though, there's enough insults for men as well, but if you actually want to be a baller, just throw them back some male specific ones, and join the hate fueled experience called CoD like most people enjoy it.
It's not good that this happens, but humans live with anger and sometimes it get's out, and whether your the person screaming or the person receiving the insults, you need to learn to deal with this, not just in videogames, but in real life as well.
If you don't want the visceral experience because you can't deal with someone insulting you, don't play games like that, play Hearthstone, Starcraft, Final Fantasy VI or godamn Candy Crush. And I suspect that if you really want to play CoD without getting insulted, you can just turn the voice chat off!
Also, mods, I know there's a bit of overlap here with GG stuff, but I'm assuming that talking about female acceptance in the gaming community is a fine topic as that seems to be what the OP is about.
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So okay we've apparently gone full circle from "everyone knows the best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them" to now where what should be done is to pick up a mic and yell back at them - part of the experience!
This is also the first time I've ever read that far cry 4 (of all games) was intentionally designed for wwomen.
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On March 12 2015 06:24 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2015 05:51 Logo wrote:And all these new people coming in? they want to love games too. A lot of them probably aren't even new people. If you've been playing games for a long ass time it's nice to get something different than yet another shooter or yet another RPG. If you combine that with getting older and having less time then doubling up with some narrative depth and personal meaning is a pretty good way to make the time spent feel efficient. In either case welcoming in new people (instead of harassing them) and a broader audience would only help get those games made. Like what? A recent game that been tried to make as female friendly is, DA:I, a complete financial disaster because instead of inventing new gameplay mechanics they focussed everything on making semi-deep characters, dumbing down the few things they hadn't already dumbed down in the previous game, and ofcourse it was a complete bug fest. Another recent one, Far Cry 4, fun game, but basically the same game as Far Cry 3. I've never seen any kind of overlap with games being made as friendly as possible to women and actually being creative. What happens in a lot of cases is that in the focus of making a game as friendly to every possible group imaginable, they forget to actually make a good game. As far as the player base goes, yeah, if you make it obvious you're a girl in a CoD game, you're gonna get called out for it, but this is more because it's a very visceral game that allows people to blow off (or in some cases create more) steam, and when people are in this state of mind they will use any perceived weakness as a form of verbal attacking, especially if you agitate them by actually responding. Maybe it sucks that as a girl you get insults specifically aimed at being female, I assure you though, there's enough insults for men as well, but if you actually want to be a baller, just throw them back some male specific ones, and join the hate fueled experience called CoD like most people enjoy it. It's not good that this happens, but humans live with anger and sometimes it get's out, and whether your the person screaming or the person receiving the insults, you need to learn to deal with this, not just in videogames, but in real life as well. If you don't want the visceral experience because you can't deal with someone insulting you, don't play games like that, play Hearthstone, Starcraft, Final Fantasy VI or godamn Candy Crush. And I suspect that if you really want to play CoD without getting insulted, you can just turn the voice chat off!
What evidence do you have that BioWare and Ubisoft designed DA:I and FarCry 4 with female gamers in mind? What? Not to mention that DA:I was pretty well received by a lot of people, not just critics. FarCry 4 less so, that pretty much got by on the strength of FarCry 3. It seems like a complete leap to say these were bad games because they were somehow pandering to a female audience.
Also, it's kind of insulting that you seem to think the only way to appeal to females is to make the game like Candy Crush. Sometimes its as easy as just putting playable female characters in your game or writing female characters as something other than walking tits your PC gets to have sex with at some point. Neither of which would detract from how difficult or good the game is. And that doesn't even mean there can't be sexist games out there, although some people would argue that point. I'm completely fine with the Dead or Alive's and Soul Calibur's of the world, but I think we have nothing to lose by increasing diversity and allowing other types of games to exist.
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Also, DA:I sold very well from my understanding. I have seen zero reports of it doing poorly.
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On March 12 2015 06:31 levelping wrote:
So okay we've apparently gone full circle from "everyone knows the best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them" to now where what should be done is to pick up a mic and yell back at them - part of the experience!
This is also the first time I've ever read that far cry 4 (of all games) was intentionally designed for wwomen.
I think he meant to say that far cry 4 was designed for casuals, and that's what ruined the game. Trying to appeal to general audience usually means less awesome games, and that niche games tend to be deeper and more well thought out in that sense.
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On March 12 2015 06:52 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2015 06:31 levelping wrote:
So okay we've apparently gone full circle from "everyone knows the best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them" to now where what should be done is to pick up a mic and yell back at them - part of the experience!
This is also the first time I've ever read that far cry 4 (of all games) was intentionally designed for wwomen. I think he meant to say that far cry 4 was designed for casuals, and that's what ruined the game. Trying to appeal to general audience usually means less awesome games, and that niche games tend to be deeper and more well thought out in that sense.
So women are casuals now?
And anyway Last of Us was an amazing game that was pretty casual friendly, whole diablo 3 was a mess at launch.
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On March 12 2015 06:32 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2015 06:24 Scootaloo wrote:On March 12 2015 05:51 Logo wrote:And all these new people coming in? they want to love games too. A lot of them probably aren't even new people. If you've been playing games for a long ass time it's nice to get something different than yet another shooter or yet another RPG. If you combine that with getting older and having less time then doubling up with some narrative depth and personal meaning is a pretty good way to make the time spent feel efficient. In either case welcoming in new people (instead of harassing them) and a broader audience would only help get those games made. Like what? A recent game that been tried to make as female friendly is, DA:I, a complete financial disaster because instead of inventing new gameplay mechanics they focussed everything on making semi-deep characters, dumbing down the few things they hadn't already dumbed down in the previous game, and ofcourse it was a complete bug fest. Another recent one, Far Cry 4, fun game, but basically the same game as Far Cry 3. I've never seen any kind of overlap with games being made as friendly as possible to women and actually being creative. What happens in a lot of cases is that in the focus of making a game as friendly to every possible group imaginable, they forget to actually make a good game. As far as the player base goes, yeah, if you make it obvious you're a girl in a CoD game, you're gonna get called out for it, but this is more because it's a very visceral game that allows people to blow off (or in some cases create more) steam, and when people are in this state of mind they will use any perceived weakness as a form of verbal attacking, especially if you agitate them by actually responding. Maybe it sucks that as a girl you get insults specifically aimed at being female, I assure you though, there's enough insults for men as well, but if you actually want to be a baller, just throw them back some male specific ones, and join the hate fueled experience called CoD like most people enjoy it. It's not good that this happens, but humans live with anger and sometimes it get's out, and whether your the person screaming or the person receiving the insults, you need to learn to deal with this, not just in videogames, but in real life as well. If you don't want the visceral experience because you can't deal with someone insulting you, don't play games like that, play Hearthstone, Starcraft, Final Fantasy VI or godamn Candy Crush. And I suspect that if you really want to play CoD without getting insulted, you can just turn the voice chat off! What evidence do you have that BioWare and Ubisoft designed DA:I and FarCry 4 with female gamers in mind? What? Not to mention that DA:I was pretty well received by a lot of people, not just critics. FarCry 4 less so, that pretty much got by on the strength of FarCry 3. It seems like a complete leap to say these were bad games because they were somehow pandering to a female audience. Also, it's kind of insulting that you seem to think the only way to appeal to females is to make the game like Candy Crush. Sometimes its as easy as just putting playable female characters in your game or writing female characters as something other than walking tits your PC gets to have sex with at some point. Neither of which would detract from how difficult or good the game is. And that doesn't even mean there can't be sexist games out there, although some people would argue that point. I'm completely fine with the Dead or Alive's and Soul Calibur's of the world, but I think we have nothing to lose by increasing diversity and allowing other types of games to exist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Age:_Inquisition
"it had sold almost the exact amount of launch week copies as 2011's Dragon Age II."
And as we all know, DAII was a pile of garbage.
Just look up David Gaider if you want to know what the writer of Dragon Age thinks of gamers and such.
And I guess you didn't play Far Cry 4, the Amita character? Hello?
I agree there should be diversity, but what happens now is that instead of the cliché sexy female character we get a buttgruff female character cliché (Amita, the 2 main Dead Light girls, Cassandra and the token lesbian from DA:I to name a couple recent ones from games I played), one only appeals to one of the sexes, the other to none because she's just a copy of the tired old buttgruff male character we are too used to, having both of them is fine, but phazing out one bad one in favor of another bad one is just prolonging the issue.
The problem is that for a videogame, unlike a movie or a tv series, story is not the focus because there are way too many other factors to consider so you're always gonna end up with cliché'd characters, even games usually acclaimed for fantastic plots, the Baldur's Gate series, SC1, FFVI, Spec Ops: The Line, etc. are all full of cliché's and writing wise compare at best to an above average movie.
Sometime's you get lucky and games actually have good characters and writing, recently Shadowrun: Dragonfall for example, a game with great characters not because they specifically focussed on making it female friendly, but just focussed on making a good story in general, but this tends to be luck in getting a good writer, not overinflating your writing budget or politisizing your workforce.
In fact, for most games, putting even more resources into the writing instead of gameplay would make them far worse, they already struggle enough as it is with coming up with new gaming mechanics, polishing what is already there and not releasing complete bug fests.
Maybe in 50 years videogames will be as high budget as the movie industry and we have a reasonable expectation of expecting both good gameplay and story, but even then, just look at superhero movies.
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On March 12 2015 06:59 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2015 06:52 wei2coolman wrote:On March 12 2015 06:31 levelping wrote:
So okay we've apparently gone full circle from "everyone knows the best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them" to now where what should be done is to pick up a mic and yell back at them - part of the experience!
This is also the first time I've ever read that far cry 4 (of all games) was intentionally designed for wwomen. I think he meant to say that far cry 4 was designed for casuals, and that's what ruined the game. Trying to appeal to general audience usually means less awesome games, and that niche games tend to be deeper and more well thought out in that sense. So women are casuals now? And anyway Last of Us was an amazing game that was pretty casual friendly, whole diablo 3 was a mess at launch.
diablo 3 was super casual imo.
I didn't make the argument, just clarifying his original posts. But, I could see and argument being made that trying to entice a broader audience (females), could lead to a game being more "casual".
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On March 12 2015 06:52 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2015 06:31 levelping wrote:
So okay we've apparently gone full circle from "everyone knows the best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them" to now where what should be done is to pick up a mic and yell back at them - part of the experience!
This is also the first time I've ever read that far cry 4 (of all games) was intentionally designed for wwomen. I think he meant to say that far cry 4 was designed for casuals, and that's what ruined the game. Trying to appeal to general audience usually means less awesome games, and that niche games tend to be deeper and more well thought out in that sense.
Actually, I wouldn't even call Far Cry 4 a casual game, your general Farmvillian is gonna have major issues trying to play it, mechanics wise it's basically a copy of Far Cry 3, I was specifically referring to when the creators said they where inspired by and most likely, from 'subtle' hints, have based their Amita character after She Who Shall Not Be Named for the purposes of staying on topic.
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On March 12 2015 06:59 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2015 06:52 wei2coolman wrote:On March 12 2015 06:31 levelping wrote:
So okay we've apparently gone full circle from "everyone knows the best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them" to now where what should be done is to pick up a mic and yell back at them - part of the experience!
This is also the first time I've ever read that far cry 4 (of all games) was intentionally designed for wwomen. I think he meant to say that far cry 4 was designed for casuals, and that's what ruined the game. Trying to appeal to general audience usually means less awesome games, and that niche games tend to be deeper and more well thought out in that sense. So women are casuals now? And anyway Last of Us was an amazing game that was pretty casual friendly, whole diablo 3 was a mess at launch.
Even though that was not the point he was trying to make, in fact, yes, statistically women are casuals:
http://developers.magmic.com/demographic-breakdown-casual-mid-core-hard-core-mobile-gamers/
http://www.datagenetics.com/blog/december12010/
Statistically speaking there is very little point in trying to market most fighting or shooter games to females because they tend to not enjoy the mechanics of these genre's, not to mention that women tend to spend much more of their time on social media, leaving much less time to spend on videogames unless they are specifically tied in with these services.
And Diablo 3 was massively casualized, I guess you never played Diablo 2, but it was a hell of a lot more difficult and way less noob friendly, in fact the complete removal of depth in their attempts to gain a bigger audience is what lost them their original, and in retrospect, far bigger previous fanbase they should have marketed it to.
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Northern Ireland26737 Posts
On March 12 2015 04:26 Plansix wrote:
The internet badass MRA have arrived and want to tell us all about our need to toughen up and get out of our hugboxes. And they clearly didn't read the article because none of what they are talking about is referenced.
I also like how a bunch of channer's are pretty much going full old man on this and saying "When I was a kid back is 2004, I was totally fine and the internet was great. These kids nowadays are soft and weak."
Do you have to use the term MRA to describe every single post that you disagree with? It's no better than the irritating debate-damaging practice of calling anyone discussing women's issues a 'feminazi'
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On March 12 2015 08:09 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2015 04:26 Plansix wrote:
The internet badass MRA have arrived and want to tell us all about our need to toughen up and get out of our hugboxes. And they clearly didn't read the article because none of what they are talking about is referenced.
I also like how a bunch of channer's are pretty much going full old man on this and saying "When I was a kid back is 2004, I was totally fine and the internet was great. These kids nowadays are soft and weak." Do you have to use the term MRA to describe every single post that you disagree with? It's no better than the irritating debate-damaging practice of calling anyone discussing women's issues a 'feminazi'
When their arguments are the exact same as every other regurgitated, prehashed talking points I've seen all over, yep. The points are disingenuous and shitty. No point in have the same arguments over bullshit over and over.
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On March 12 2015 06:24 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2015 05:51 Logo wrote:And all these new people coming in? they want to love games too. A lot of them probably aren't even new people. If you've been playing games for a long ass time it's nice to get something different than yet another shooter or yet another RPG. If you combine that with getting older and having less time then doubling up with some narrative depth and personal meaning is a pretty good way to make the time spent feel efficient. In either case welcoming in new people (instead of harassing them) and a broader audience would only help get those games made. Like what? A recent game that been tried to make as female friendly is, DA:I, a complete financial disaster because instead of inventing new gameplay mechanics they focussed everything on making semi-deep characters, dumbing down the few things they hadn't already dumbed down in the previous game, and ofcourse it was a complete bug fest.
You are seriously blaming DA:I on the developers focus women? DA2 sucked too. Maybe it has something to do with a bad studio being bad at game design and the damage that cross-platform releases have inflicted on PC RPGs because things have to be made comparable with console controllers?
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On March 12 2015 08:38 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2015 08:09 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 12 2015 04:26 Plansix wrote:
The internet badass MRA have arrived and want to tell us all about our need to toughen up and get out of our hugboxes. And they clearly didn't read the article because none of what they are talking about is referenced.
I also like how a bunch of channer's are pretty much going full old man on this and saying "When I was a kid back is 2004, I was totally fine and the internet was great. These kids nowadays are soft and weak." Do you have to use the term MRA to describe every single post that you disagree with? It's no better than the irritating debate-damaging practice of calling anyone discussing women's issues a 'feminazi' When their arguments are the exact same as every other regurgitated, prehashed talking points I've seen all over, yep. The points are disingenuous and shitty. No point in have the same arguments over bills hit over and over.
I haven't read anything from you being any different. "Kids these days" i guess. By the way, i am 30. But i would never try to argue with someone younger pretending my age gives me a better insight on different subjects (which it does) showing disdain, but actually answering the arguments. And calling them MRA is absolutely a crap bait.
Now on DAI's point.
And i don't care who they targeted with DAI (i guess i would need to read some pointless DEV interview to find that), but the game wasn't bad because it was focused to X. It was bad because it was uninspiring. The game lacked direction, it wasn't the true son to DAO like they promised and it was a horrible PC port. Anything else about casual, not casual (that word has been prostituted too much, please, stop using it) is not what the game aims for.
Its problems are the repetition, the lazy quest/game design, controls and lacking storytelling from a company who actually has been making money out of it, removal of features which you may think it is to target the "casuals". No, it's not, it's just lazy game design. People who just play a game a few hours and move on into the next one couldn't careless if you had a tactics screen in his way, removing it didn't catter to what you describe as casual players in any way, it was just a net loss.
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On March 12 2015 08:49 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2015 06:24 Scootaloo wrote:On March 12 2015 05:51 Logo wrote:And all these new people coming in? they want to love games too. A lot of them probably aren't even new people. If you've been playing games for a long ass time it's nice to get something different than yet another shooter or yet another RPG. If you combine that with getting older and having less time then doubling up with some narrative depth and personal meaning is a pretty good way to make the time spent feel efficient. In either case welcoming in new people (instead of harassing them) and a broader audience would only help get those games made. Like what? A recent game that been tried to make as female friendly is, DA:I, a complete financial disaster because instead of inventing new gameplay mechanics they focussed everything on making semi-deep characters, dumbing down the few things they hadn't already dumbed down in the previous game, and ofcourse it was a complete bug fest. You are seriously blaming DA:I on the developers focus women? DA2 sucked too. Maybe it has something to do with a bad studio being bad at game design and the damage that cross-platform releases have inflicted on PC RPGs because things have to be made comparable with console controllers?
What other examples do we have of games with a female focus like that? I could cite Depression Quest, which was horrible, Revolution 60, which was horrible, Gone Home, which although not as complete garbage as the previous two mentions was still the most pretentuous walking simulator I have ever played, I'm having trouble thinking of any other really feminist games advertised as such.
DA:I was not not dumbed down for consoles, DA:O was their classic 2nd ed. DnD system they used dumbed down and simplified for consoles, it worked fine despite this and was still intelligent enough to be a good game.
DA:I was dumbed down to reach a dumber audience, less game, more story, because what Farmville tard is going to want to do complicated battles with pausing or differentiating class mechanics beyond basic roles? Ewwwww. But a long dumb story about kings 'n shit? It's just like Game of Thrones!
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On March 09 2015 01:05 travis wrote:
I really don't think the immature kids that talk to girl gamers like this are going after girl gamers. I think they are being dicks to everyone. Most guys, especially ones over 12, LOVE to have girls that play their games too.
In general this "defend girl gamers!" thing is ridiculous. Everyone has to deal with the shitty little immature trolls, not just girls.
The majority of this journalism on girl gamer equality is only a way for the producers of this content to make money. Which is why I didn't click the link.
a-fucking-men
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Northern Ireland26737 Posts
On March 12 2015 08:38 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2015 08:09 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 12 2015 04:26 Plansix wrote:
The internet badass MRA have arrived and want to tell us all about our need to toughen up and get out of our hugboxes. And they clearly didn't read the article because none of what they are talking about is referenced.
I also like how a bunch of channer's are pretty much going full old man on this and saying "When I was a kid back is 2004, I was totally fine and the internet was great. These kids nowadays are soft and weak." Do you have to use the term MRA to describe every single post that you disagree with? It's no better than the irritating debate-damaging practice of calling anyone discussing women's issues a 'feminazi' When their arguments are the exact same as every other regurgitated, prehashed talking points I've seen all over, yep. The points are disingenuous and shitty. No point in have the same arguments over bullshit over and over.
Like what? Equivalent access to children? The want to have a nuanced discussion about gender in society than accepting the initial way such things are framed? That perhaps other motives other than misogyny get lumped in whenever prominent females get abused?
I mean what are you even referring to?
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