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On January 08 2015 09:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 09:02 Maluk wrote:On January 08 2015 08:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 08 2015 08:53 heliusx wrote:On January 08 2015 08:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 08 2015 08:40 SoSexy wrote:
It's funny how for you guys nothing is a problem, everyone is super good and respectful, violence episodes are 'media baits' but bombing and attacks actually happen and then you go like 'how could this happen?'. Do you live in the world of magic unicorns? No you are right. You and me, we have a little secret, but don't tell them because there are PC police around. See, the thing is (not too loud): it all because there are too many brown people. They smell a bit. And they are muslims, you know that stuff that says you have to kill people and rape women because. Ok, seriously, look, I see you want absolutely people to go with your xenophonic anti immigration stuff, at any cost in that thread. It's not happening, apparently. Too bad. Next time. I spent 10 hours at my job, I come back to read this thread, and you're still strawmanning people? We get it you're an immigrant or offspring of immigrants yourself so you take it personally. The problem biff, is not people like you who integrate into society and contribute. It also has nothing to do with skin color so I think you can save that one for another time. There is no strawmanning. There are people who are using a murder commited by French people against French people to throw anti immigration crap that is completely unrelated. It has been said a hundred times: those people were not immigrants. If those guys did not integrate and did not contribute, it is not to blame on immigration, they were French. Is that too hard to understand, or am I "strawmanning"? For a vast majority of French people it's not only about "French peeps killing French peeps". If a black (not arabian) or white person with something like traditional christian background (or even buddhist for that matter) was the terrorist everyone would be like "what the fuck ?" In this case everyone thinks that this was bound to happen sooner or later and that's what is worrying. Ok, so people getting into fundamentalist islam are more likely to be from a muslim background and therefore, immigrants of first second or third generation. That sounds logical (even though it's not even always the case, since some of the last ISIS French recruits seen butchering people on those vids were white from christian background but whatever). Does it make the killing an immigration problem or does it shows an obvious link to a hypothetic immigration problem? Not at all.
I'm not saying anything about immigration because I don't know shit about that. I'm just saying that you are exaggerating, and depicting this as a simple "french or french" thing is very far away from what's going on.
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sad news, condolences to everyone effected by this tragedy. i am not a racist or religious but i feel like drastic measures have to be taken in order to control these radical extremists from committing more atrocities
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Les opérations sur le département de la Marne ainsi que les Ardennes viennent de se terminées. Aucune traces des suspects !! Actuellement un avis de recherche est lancé.
Les médias étaient focalisés sur Reims pour permettre une intervention des forces de l'ordres et un effet de surprises sur le département Ardennes. En vain !!!
L’interpellation d'un jeune de la famille des personnes recherché à été effectué sans blessés !!
Les médias diffuses maintenant les fameuses informations
----> Real operation was there : Charleville-Mézières google map Apparently it failed.
The operation of Reims was just to catch the attention of the media, wich explain why it was so easy to get close to the scene.
Still they got a member of the family of the suspects who was arrested without anyone hurt.
Damn, i hope they have not yet escaped from France ... Tomorrow i have to go to work in Belgium, better not forget my ID card :s
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derc, can you give your source please ?
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Canada11505 Posts
On January 08 2015 09:16 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 09:05 darkness wrote:On January 08 2015 09:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 08 2015 08:58 darkness wrote:On January 08 2015 08:54 nojok wrote:On January 08 2015 08:43 darkness wrote:
I think the question isn't about a citizenship here because it seems fair to be of a certain nationality if you are born in that country. The real problem is immigration isn't as successful as it should be or not the one outside Europe. In other words, integration should be greatly reconsidered in the next few years. Terror attacks have taken place in Australia, Canada, France, etc and it's often connected with islam. The world needs to either find a way to integrate muslims or never allow them in a country for a living. Racism? No. Just unbridgeable gap in culture. Wtf?! One of my best friends is a black Muslim, I've been checked 11 times by the police in my life, 10 times with him. I've several other sons of immigrant friends, life is just tougher for them. The problem comes from our society not them. Sure it was easier to integrate Polish, Russians, Portuguese , Italians etc in France but they got accepted once a new wave of immigrants arrived. Also most of our wonderful health system works because of underpaid North African doctors. I could get other exemples. I put this on ignorance but you should visit some North African countries to see what values they have we don't have. Yes there are problems but more often than not the shit comes from Europe and US in the grand scheme of things. Well, do you ask yourself why other Europeans aren't checked that much? It's not skin. If you open your eyes, you may realise that terror attacks have been present recently mainly because some people refuse to integrate with a country's culture and democratic believes. I live in Norway and it looks like last time someone refused to integrate the country pacifist culture and its democratic beliefs and made a massacre, he was a white christian norwegian. Why, why, why, why do we have to turn that discussion into a far right bot flame war? For Christ sake, those guys who got killed were fighting against those ideas. Turning their death into an arguments against european muslims and immigrants is to kill them a second time. I'm not saying terror attacks are inherently committed by muslims. You're right about the case you mention but what I refer to is the cause of those recent attacks. It's often because someone expresses a disagreement about their religion. When was the last time a christian killed a muslim or another christian for the sake of religion? A long time ago. Edit: Unfortunately, if the world doesn't solve this integration problem, nazi/radical parties may as well come back. a long time ago? there are still religious wars between christians and muslims going on right now. or how about this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army
From my readings on the purported beliefs of Kony's LRA, it could hardly be called Christian. And it has little to do with no true-scotsman. He seems to have a very strange concoction of beliefs, many contrary to Christian thought. For instance, he claims to be guided by spirits "I don't know the number but they speak to me." If you look through the countless denominations, you might find liberal Christians might dismiss that as delusional or you might find that orthodox Christistianity would consider that demonic. But from liberal to ultra-orthodox to fundamentalist that sort of claim is antithetical to Christian teaching. I suspect much of his teaching and practices follow a similar path- dressed up Christian language violently ripped from any context whether by liberal or orthodox interpretation.
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On January 08 2015 09:37 Ishentar wrote:
derc, can you give your source please ?
I hope it's reliable i'm following it from Facebook facebooklink plus i know someone who's father is policeman at Charleville Mézière. There was definitly an operation there but the "official" french media have release nothing yet. So yes sorry, i hope it wasnt false informations.
edit :
twitter from Itele (non stop information tv channel) twitterlink
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On January 08 2015 09:40 derc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 09:37 Ishentar wrote:
derc, can you give your source please ? I hope it's reliable i'm following it from Facebook facebooklink plus i know someone who's father is policeman at Charleville Mézière. There was definitly an operation there but the "official" french media have release nothing yet. So yes sorry, i hope it wasnt false informations.
The guy writing doesn't even spell anything right.
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On January 08 2015 09:41 Boucot wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 09:40 derc wrote:On January 08 2015 09:37 Ishentar wrote:
derc, can you give your source please ? I hope it's reliable i'm following it from Facebook facebooklink plus i know someone who's father is policeman at Charleville Mézière. There was definitly an operation there but the "official" french media have release nothing yet. So yes sorry, i hope it wasnt false informations. The guy writing doesn't even spell anything right.
Yeah seems totally unreliable :/
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On January 08 2015 09:41 Boucot wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 09:40 derc wrote:On January 08 2015 09:37 Ishentar wrote:
derc, can you give your source please ? I hope it's reliable i'm following it from Facebook facebooklink plus i know someone who's father is policeman at Charleville Mézière. There was definitly an operation there but the "official" french media have release nothing yet. So yes sorry, i hope it wasnt false informations. The guy writing doesn't even spell anything right.
It's pretty obvious that they did not arrest any of the 3 suspect though.... Police realsed 3 wanted notices
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Some unpopular opinions I saw earlier: http://termite.apcdn.com/full/126855.png
can't speak french, so don't know how accurate those are.
Overall the response has been quite expected (or other opinions deleted / downvoted), but twitter is always twitter.
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France9034 Posts
On January 08 2015 09:23 jinorazi wrote:
its unfortunate this will grow more anti-islam sentiment in europe...though i really hope some people are smart enough to step up and protect the minority.
i hear about political parties that are dedicated to anti muslim, like blocking their immigration and whatnot, how really bad is it? is it mixed feelings or is it mainstream to hate on muslims? (in europe)
As for France, it's not mainstream per se, but more like a rampant thing... I've been shocked a few times today by what a few of my friends have said, thinking "Wow, what the fuck dude, that's not okay" without knowing they'd be so intolerant... Then, a few testimonies by french muslims tend to show that they feel it quite strongly.
There's one party, the National Front, which is very vocal on this topic, through their leader Marine Le Pen. And it seems they're getting better result than before in elections, which is a bit scary to say the least... (and I truly hope this won't help them further...).
Then, it's more extremist groups that aren't parties in themselves, like Bloc Identitaire, Action Française...
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Another recent tweet confirms the police operation at Charleville Mezieres.
It's from a journalist.
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MSNBC reporting that one of the officers shot (referred to as a bodygaurd) was a French Muslim.
If it's true that one of the cops that died protecting these cartoonists was Muslim I think that could be a good catalyst for positive forces.
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On January 08 2015 09:38 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 09:16 Paljas wrote:On January 08 2015 09:05 darkness wrote:On January 08 2015 09:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 08 2015 08:58 darkness wrote:On January 08 2015 08:54 nojok wrote:On January 08 2015 08:43 darkness wrote:
I think the question isn't about a citizenship here because it seems fair to be of a certain nationality if you are born in that country. The real problem is immigration isn't as successful as it should be or not the one outside Europe. In other words, integration should be greatly reconsidered in the next few years. Terror attacks have taken place in Australia, Canada, France, etc and it's often connected with islam. The world needs to either find a way to integrate muslims or never allow them in a country for a living. Racism? No. Just unbridgeable gap in culture. Wtf?! One of my best friends is a black Muslim, I've been checked 11 times by the police in my life, 10 times with him. I've several other sons of immigrant friends, life is just tougher for them. The problem comes from our society not them. Sure it was easier to integrate Polish, Russians, Portuguese , Italians etc in France but they got accepted once a new wave of immigrants arrived. Also most of our wonderful health system works because of underpaid North African doctors. I could get other exemples. I put this on ignorance but you should visit some North African countries to see what values they have we don't have. Yes there are problems but more often than not the shit comes from Europe and US in the grand scheme of things. Well, do you ask yourself why other Europeans aren't checked that much? It's not skin. If you open your eyes, you may realise that terror attacks have been present recently mainly because some people refuse to integrate with a country's culture and democratic believes. I live in Norway and it looks like last time someone refused to integrate the country pacifist culture and its democratic beliefs and made a massacre, he was a white christian norwegian. Why, why, why, why do we have to turn that discussion into a far right bot flame war? For Christ sake, those guys who got killed were fighting against those ideas. Turning their death into an arguments against european muslims and immigrants is to kill them a second time. I'm not saying terror attacks are inherently committed by muslims. You're right about the case you mention but what I refer to is the cause of those recent attacks. It's often because someone expresses a disagreement about their religion. When was the last time a christian killed a muslim or another christian for the sake of religion? A long time ago. Edit: Unfortunately, if the world doesn't solve this integration problem, nazi/radical parties may as well come back. a long time ago? there are still religious wars between christians and muslims going on right now. or how about this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army From my readings on the purported beliefs of Kony's LRA, it could hardly be called Christian. And it has little to do with no true-scotsman. He seems to have a very strange concoction of beliefs, many contrary to Christian thought. For instance, he claims to be guided by spirits "I don't know the number but they speak to me." If you look through the countless denominations, you might find liberal Christians might dismiss that as delusional or you might find that orthodox Christistianity would consider that demonic. But from liberal to ultra-orthodox to fundamentalist that sort of claim is antithetical to Christian teaching. I suspect much of his teaching and practices follow a similar path- dressed up Christian language violently ripped from any context whether by liberal or orthodox interpretation.
And yet christianity and that belief can easily be mixed; haitian voodoo comes to mind, and I'm pretty sure I remember hearing about other african versions of christianity that include spirits. When it comes to religion, antithetical things are rarely a problem. Ultimately people believe in what they want.
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Canada11505 Posts
On January 08 2015 09:57 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 09:38 Falling wrote:On January 08 2015 09:16 Paljas wrote:On January 08 2015 09:05 darkness wrote:On January 08 2015 09:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 08 2015 08:58 darkness wrote:On January 08 2015 08:54 nojok wrote:On January 08 2015 08:43 darkness wrote:
I think the question isn't about a citizenship here because it seems fair to be of a certain nationality if you are born in that country. The real problem is immigration isn't as successful as it should be or not the one outside Europe. In other words, integration should be greatly reconsidered in the next few years. Terror attacks have taken place in Australia, Canada, France, etc and it's often connected with islam. The world needs to either find a way to integrate muslims or never allow them in a country for a living. Racism? No. Just unbridgeable gap in culture. Wtf?! One of my best friends is a black Muslim, I've been checked 11 times by the police in my life, 10 times with him. I've several other sons of immigrant friends, life is just tougher for them. The problem comes from our society not them. Sure it was easier to integrate Polish, Russians, Portuguese , Italians etc in France but they got accepted once a new wave of immigrants arrived. Also most of our wonderful health system works because of underpaid North African doctors. I could get other exemples. I put this on ignorance but you should visit some North African countries to see what values they have we don't have. Yes there are problems but more often than not the shit comes from Europe and US in the grand scheme of things. Well, do you ask yourself why other Europeans aren't checked that much? It's not skin. If you open your eyes, you may realise that terror attacks have been present recently mainly because some people refuse to integrate with a country's culture and democratic believes. I live in Norway and it looks like last time someone refused to integrate the country pacifist culture and its democratic beliefs and made a massacre, he was a white christian norwegian. Why, why, why, why do we have to turn that discussion into a far right bot flame war? For Christ sake, those guys who got killed were fighting against those ideas. Turning their death into an arguments against european muslims and immigrants is to kill them a second time. I'm not saying terror attacks are inherently committed by muslims. You're right about the case you mention but what I refer to is the cause of those recent attacks. It's often because someone expresses a disagreement about their religion. When was the last time a christian killed a muslim or another christian for the sake of religion? A long time ago. Edit: Unfortunately, if the world doesn't solve this integration problem, nazi/radical parties may as well come back. a long time ago? there are still religious wars between christians and muslims going on right now. or how about this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army From my readings on the purported beliefs of Kony's LRA, it could hardly be called Christian. And it has little to do with no true-scotsman. He seems to have a very strange concoction of beliefs, many contrary to Christian thought. For instance, he claims to be guided by spirits "I don't know the number but they speak to me." If you look through the countless denominations, you might find liberal Christians might dismiss that as delusional or you might find that orthodox Christistianity would consider that demonic. But from liberal to ultra-orthodox to fundamentalist that sort of claim is antithetical to Christian teaching. I suspect much of his teaching and practices follow a similar path- dressed up Christian language violently ripped from any context whether by liberal or orthodox interpretation. And yet christianity and that belief can easily be mixed; haitian voodoo comes to mind, and I'm pretty sure I remember hearing about other african versions of christianity that include spirits. When it comes to religion, antithetical things are rarely a problem. Ultimately people believe in what they want.
Not easily. Not without ignoring core tenents of the faith.
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What a sad sad sad sad day. Have the impression the world is a bit worse than when I woke up this morning. Good night to all of you anyway. I think we won't have all that many updates until they find those guys. Let's just hope they catch at least one of them alive...
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good night biff, good posting.
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On January 08 2015 09:56 GreenHorizons wrote:
MSNBC reporting that one of the officers shot (referred to as a bodygaurd) was a French Muslim.
If it's true that one of the cops that died protecting these cartoonists was Muslim I think that could be a good catalyst for positive forces.
Yes, many french news medias also report that one French police officer killed fighting the terrorist was a French muslim, hope this show everyone here that muslims and terrorists aren't the same, I see many people today, especially in France, confusing islam with terrorism, and that's quite fearsome, muslims die fighting terrorism too.
Moreover, in the world most victims of islamic terrorism are muslims, in Syria, Irak, Pakistan... etc...
Terrorists are monsters killing without discrimination.
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On January 08 2015 10:04 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 09:57 Nebuchad wrote:On January 08 2015 09:38 Falling wrote:On January 08 2015 09:16 Paljas wrote:On January 08 2015 09:05 darkness wrote:On January 08 2015 09:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 08 2015 08:58 darkness wrote:On January 08 2015 08:54 nojok wrote:On January 08 2015 08:43 darkness wrote:
I think the question isn't about a citizenship here because it seems fair to be of a certain nationality if you are born in that country. The real problem is immigration isn't as successful as it should be or not the one outside Europe. In other words, integration should be greatly reconsidered in the next few years. Terror attacks have taken place in Australia, Canada, France, etc and it's often connected with islam. The world needs to either find a way to integrate muslims or never allow them in a country for a living. Racism? No. Just unbridgeable gap in culture. Wtf?! One of my best friends is a black Muslim, I've been checked 11 times by the police in my life, 10 times with him. I've several other sons of immigrant friends, life is just tougher for them. The problem comes from our society not them. Sure it was easier to integrate Polish, Russians, Portuguese , Italians etc in France but they got accepted once a new wave of immigrants arrived. Also most of our wonderful health system works because of underpaid North African doctors. I could get other exemples. I put this on ignorance but you should visit some North African countries to see what values they have we don't have. Yes there are problems but more often than not the shit comes from Europe and US in the grand scheme of things. Well, do you ask yourself why other Europeans aren't checked that much? It's not skin. If you open your eyes, you may realise that terror attacks have been present recently mainly because some people refuse to integrate with a country's culture and democratic believes. I live in Norway and it looks like last time someone refused to integrate the country pacifist culture and its democratic beliefs and made a massacre, he was a white christian norwegian. Why, why, why, why do we have to turn that discussion into a far right bot flame war? For Christ sake, those guys who got killed were fighting against those ideas. Turning their death into an arguments against european muslims and immigrants is to kill them a second time. I'm not saying terror attacks are inherently committed by muslims. You're right about the case you mention but what I refer to is the cause of those recent attacks. It's often because someone expresses a disagreement about their religion. When was the last time a christian killed a muslim or another christian for the sake of religion? A long time ago. Edit: Unfortunately, if the world doesn't solve this integration problem, nazi/radical parties may as well come back. a long time ago? there are still religious wars between christians and muslims going on right now. or how about this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army From my readings on the purported beliefs of Kony's LRA, it could hardly be called Christian. And it has little to do with no true-scotsman. He seems to have a very strange concoction of beliefs, many contrary to Christian thought. For instance, he claims to be guided by spirits "I don't know the number but they speak to me." If you look through the countless denominations, you might find liberal Christians might dismiss that as delusional or you might find that orthodox Christistianity would consider that demonic. But from liberal to ultra-orthodox to fundamentalist that sort of claim is antithetical to Christian teaching. I suspect much of his teaching and practices follow a similar path- dressed up Christian language violently ripped from any context whether by liberal or orthodox interpretation. And yet christianity and that belief can easily be mixed; haitian voodoo comes to mind, and I'm pretty sure I remember hearing about other african versions of christianity that include spirits. When it comes to religion, antithetical things are rarely a problem. Ultimately people believe in what they want. Not easily. Not without ignoring core tenents of the faith.
Well obviously their version of christianism doesn't consider this a core tenent of the faith. Are we comfortable with saying they are incorrect? Cause I don't think I am.
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On January 08 2015 10:04 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 09:57 Nebuchad wrote:On January 08 2015 09:38 Falling wrote:On January 08 2015 09:16 Paljas wrote:On January 08 2015 09:05 darkness wrote:On January 08 2015 09:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 08 2015 08:58 darkness wrote:On January 08 2015 08:54 nojok wrote:On January 08 2015 08:43 darkness wrote:
I think the question isn't about a citizenship here because it seems fair to be of a certain nationality if you are born in that country. The real problem is immigration isn't as successful as it should be or not the one outside Europe. In other words, integration should be greatly reconsidered in the next few years. Terror attacks have taken place in Australia, Canada, France, etc and it's often connected with islam. The world needs to either find a way to integrate muslims or never allow them in a country for a living. Racism? No. Just unbridgeable gap in culture. Wtf?! One of my best friends is a black Muslim, I've been checked 11 times by the police in my life, 10 times with him. I've several other sons of immigrant friends, life is just tougher for them. The problem comes from our society not them. Sure it was easier to integrate Polish, Russians, Portuguese , Italians etc in France but they got accepted once a new wave of immigrants arrived. Also most of our wonderful health system works because of underpaid North African doctors. I could get other exemples. I put this on ignorance but you should visit some North African countries to see what values they have we don't have. Yes there are problems but more often than not the shit comes from Europe and US in the grand scheme of things. Well, do you ask yourself why other Europeans aren't checked that much? It's not skin. If you open your eyes, you may realise that terror attacks have been present recently mainly because some people refuse to integrate with a country's culture and democratic believes. I live in Norway and it looks like last time someone refused to integrate the country pacifist culture and its democratic beliefs and made a massacre, he was a white christian norwegian. Why, why, why, why do we have to turn that discussion into a far right bot flame war? For Christ sake, those guys who got killed were fighting against those ideas. Turning their death into an arguments against european muslims and immigrants is to kill them a second time. I'm not saying terror attacks are inherently committed by muslims. You're right about the case you mention but what I refer to is the cause of those recent attacks. It's often because someone expresses a disagreement about their religion. When was the last time a christian killed a muslim or another christian for the sake of religion? A long time ago. Edit: Unfortunately, if the world doesn't solve this integration problem, nazi/radical parties may as well come back. a long time ago? there are still religious wars between christians and muslims going on right now. or how about this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army From my readings on the purported beliefs of Kony's LRA, it could hardly be called Christian. And it has little to do with no true-scotsman. He seems to have a very strange concoction of beliefs, many contrary to Christian thought. For instance, he claims to be guided by spirits "I don't know the number but they speak to me." If you look through the countless denominations, you might find liberal Christians might dismiss that as delusional or you might find that orthodox Christistianity would consider that demonic. But from liberal to ultra-orthodox to fundamentalist that sort of claim is antithetical to Christian teaching. I suspect much of his teaching and practices follow a similar path- dressed up Christian language violently ripped from any context whether by liberal or orthodox interpretation. And yet christianity and that belief can easily be mixed; haitian voodoo comes to mind, and I'm pretty sure I remember hearing about other african versions of christianity that include spirits. When it comes to religion, antithetical things are rarely a problem. Ultimately people believe in what they want. Not easily. Not without ignoring core tenents of the faith.
There are entire sects built separated by such. The relationship between the Pope and several Christian denominations come to mind. I was a lot of religious peoples 'black friend' so I went to a lot of churches, the things they say about other Christians when they are surrounded by people they think are of the same faith.... oh boy...
The one that comes to mind is one I went to where in the "rock gospel" class they covered how unbaptized babies go to hell and how people who disagree are basically going with them. Then in the main service they had me go on stage and "speak in tongues". The "They aren't christian because they worship Mary" rips were pretty common across several churches.
But seriously there are pretty large christian sects that think other large sects are basically heretics and plenty of smaller ones too. I don't know what qualifies as an objectively core tenant but I can assure you I went to plenty of churches who thought there core beliefs were dramatically different from other Christians.
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EPT
