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On January 08 2015 10:16 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 10:04 Falling wrote:On January 08 2015 09:57 Nebuchad wrote:On January 08 2015 09:38 Falling wrote:On January 08 2015 09:16 Paljas wrote:On January 08 2015 09:05 darkness wrote:On January 08 2015 09:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 08 2015 08:58 darkness wrote:On January 08 2015 08:54 nojok wrote:On January 08 2015 08:43 darkness wrote:
I think the question isn't about a citizenship here because it seems fair to be of a certain nationality if you are born in that country. The real problem is immigration isn't as successful as it should be or not the one outside Europe. In other words, integration should be greatly reconsidered in the next few years. Terror attacks have taken place in Australia, Canada, France, etc and it's often connected with islam. The world needs to either find a way to integrate muslims or never allow them in a country for a living. Racism? No. Just unbridgeable gap in culture. Wtf?! One of my best friends is a black Muslim, I've been checked 11 times by the police in my life, 10 times with him. I've several other sons of immigrant friends, life is just tougher for them. The problem comes from our society not them. Sure it was easier to integrate Polish, Russians, Portuguese , Italians etc in France but they got accepted once a new wave of immigrants arrived. Also most of our wonderful health system works because of underpaid North African doctors. I could get other exemples. I put this on ignorance but you should visit some North African countries to see what values they have we don't have. Yes there are problems but more often than not the shit comes from Europe and US in the grand scheme of things. Well, do you ask yourself why other Europeans aren't checked that much? It's not skin. If you open your eyes, you may realise that terror attacks have been present recently mainly because some people refuse to integrate with a country's culture and democratic believes. I live in Norway and it looks like last time someone refused to integrate the country pacifist culture and its democratic beliefs and made a massacre, he was a white christian norwegian. Why, why, why, why do we have to turn that discussion into a far right bot flame war? For Christ sake, those guys who got killed were fighting against those ideas. Turning their death into an arguments against european muslims and immigrants is to kill them a second time. I'm not saying terror attacks are inherently committed by muslims. You're right about the case you mention but what I refer to is the cause of those recent attacks. It's often because someone expresses a disagreement about their religion. When was the last time a christian killed a muslim or another christian for the sake of religion? A long time ago. Edit: Unfortunately, if the world doesn't solve this integration problem, nazi/radical parties may as well come back. a long time ago? there are still religious wars between christians and muslims going on right now. or how about this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army From my readings on the purported beliefs of Kony's LRA, it could hardly be called Christian. And it has little to do with no true-scotsman. He seems to have a very strange concoction of beliefs, many contrary to Christian thought. For instance, he claims to be guided by spirits "I don't know the number but they speak to me." If you look through the countless denominations, you might find liberal Christians might dismiss that as delusional or you might find that orthodox Christistianity would consider that demonic. But from liberal to ultra-orthodox to fundamentalist that sort of claim is antithetical to Christian teaching. I suspect much of his teaching and practices follow a similar path- dressed up Christian language violently ripped from any context whether by liberal or orthodox interpretation. And yet christianity and that belief can easily be mixed; haitian voodoo comes to mind, and I'm pretty sure I remember hearing about other african versions of christianity that include spirits. When it comes to religion, antithetical things are rarely a problem. Ultimately people believe in what they want. Not easily. Not without ignoring core tenents of the faith. Well obviously their version of christianism doesn't consider this a core tenent of the faith. Are we comfortable with saying they are incorrect? Cause I don't think I am.
Well it is actually incorrect. Christianism doesn't admit the existence of spirits.
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BFMTV said one of the three (youngest) surrendered to the Police
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On January 08 2015 10:20 Maluk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 10:16 Nebuchad wrote:On January 08 2015 10:04 Falling wrote:On January 08 2015 09:57 Nebuchad wrote:On January 08 2015 09:38 Falling wrote:On January 08 2015 09:16 Paljas wrote:On January 08 2015 09:05 darkness wrote:On January 08 2015 09:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 08 2015 08:58 darkness wrote:On January 08 2015 08:54 nojok wrote:
[quote]
Wtf?! One of my best friends is a black Muslim, I've been checked 11 times by the police in my life, 10 times with him. I've several other sons of immigrant friends, life is just tougher for them. The problem comes from our society not them. Sure it was easier to integrate Polish, Russians, Portuguese , Italians etc in France but they got accepted once a new wave of immigrants arrived. Also most of our wonderful health system works because of underpaid North African doctors. I could get other exemples.
I put this on ignorance but you should visit some North African countries to see what values they have we don't have. Yes there are problems but more often than not the shit comes from Europe and US in the grand scheme of things. Well, do you ask yourself why other Europeans aren't checked that much? It's not skin. If you open your eyes, you may realise that terror attacks have been present recently mainly because some people refuse to integrate with a country's culture and democratic believes. I live in Norway and it looks like last time someone refused to integrate the country pacifist culture and its democratic beliefs and made a massacre, he was a white christian norwegian. Why, why, why, why do we have to turn that discussion into a far right bot flame war? For Christ sake, those guys who got killed were fighting against those ideas. Turning their death into an arguments against european muslims and immigrants is to kill them a second time. I'm not saying terror attacks are inherently committed by muslims. You're right about the case you mention but what I refer to is the cause of those recent attacks. It's often because someone expresses a disagreement about their religion. When was the last time a christian killed a muslim or another christian for the sake of religion? A long time ago. Edit: Unfortunately, if the world doesn't solve this integration problem, nazi/radical parties may as well come back. a long time ago? there are still religious wars between christians and muslims going on right now. or how about this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army From my readings on the purported beliefs of Kony's LRA, it could hardly be called Christian. And it has little to do with no true-scotsman. He seems to have a very strange concoction of beliefs, many contrary to Christian thought. For instance, he claims to be guided by spirits "I don't know the number but they speak to me." If you look through the countless denominations, you might find liberal Christians might dismiss that as delusional or you might find that orthodox Christistianity would consider that demonic. But from liberal to ultra-orthodox to fundamentalist that sort of claim is antithetical to Christian teaching. I suspect much of his teaching and practices follow a similar path- dressed up Christian language violently ripped from any context whether by liberal or orthodox interpretation. And yet christianity and that belief can easily be mixed; haitian voodoo comes to mind, and I'm pretty sure I remember hearing about other african versions of christianity that include spirits. When it comes to religion, antithetical things are rarely a problem. Ultimately people believe in what they want. Not easily. Not without ignoring core tenents of the faith. Well obviously their version of christianism doesn't consider this a core tenent of the faith. Are we comfortable with saying they are incorrect? Cause I don't think I am. Well it is actually incorrect. Christianism doesn't admit the existence of spirits.
The Holy Ghost/Spirit?
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One of the suspects surrendered : Le monde / AFP / BFM TV. He was the youngest and surrendered to police at Charleville-Mézières, 23h PM.
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Canada11378 Posts
On January 08 2015 10:16 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 10:04 Falling wrote:On January 08 2015 09:57 Nebuchad wrote:On January 08 2015 09:38 Falling wrote:On January 08 2015 09:16 Paljas wrote:On January 08 2015 09:05 darkness wrote:On January 08 2015 09:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 08 2015 08:58 darkness wrote:On January 08 2015 08:54 nojok wrote:On January 08 2015 08:43 darkness wrote:
I think the question isn't about a citizenship here because it seems fair to be of a certain nationality if you are born in that country. The real problem is immigration isn't as successful as it should be or not the one outside Europe. In other words, integration should be greatly reconsidered in the next few years. Terror attacks have taken place in Australia, Canada, France, etc and it's often connected with islam. The world needs to either find a way to integrate muslims or never allow them in a country for a living. Racism? No. Just unbridgeable gap in culture. Wtf?! One of my best friends is a black Muslim, I've been checked 11 times by the police in my life, 10 times with him. I've several other sons of immigrant friends, life is just tougher for them. The problem comes from our society not them. Sure it was easier to integrate Polish, Russians, Portuguese , Italians etc in France but they got accepted once a new wave of immigrants arrived. Also most of our wonderful health system works because of underpaid North African doctors. I could get other exemples. I put this on ignorance but you should visit some North African countries to see what values they have we don't have. Yes there are problems but more often than not the shit comes from Europe and US in the grand scheme of things. Well, do you ask yourself why other Europeans aren't checked that much? It's not skin. If you open your eyes, you may realise that terror attacks have been present recently mainly because some people refuse to integrate with a country's culture and democratic believes. I live in Norway and it looks like last time someone refused to integrate the country pacifist culture and its democratic beliefs and made a massacre, he was a white christian norwegian. Why, why, why, why do we have to turn that discussion into a far right bot flame war? For Christ sake, those guys who got killed were fighting against those ideas. Turning their death into an arguments against european muslims and immigrants is to kill them a second time. I'm not saying terror attacks are inherently committed by muslims. You're right about the case you mention but what I refer to is the cause of those recent attacks. It's often because someone expresses a disagreement about their religion. When was the last time a christian killed a muslim or another christian for the sake of religion? A long time ago. Edit: Unfortunately, if the world doesn't solve this integration problem, nazi/radical parties may as well come back. a long time ago? there are still religious wars between christians and muslims going on right now. or how about this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army From my readings on the purported beliefs of Kony's LRA, it could hardly be called Christian. And it has little to do with no true-scotsman. He seems to have a very strange concoction of beliefs, many contrary to Christian thought. For instance, he claims to be guided by spirits "I don't know the number but they speak to me." If you look through the countless denominations, you might find liberal Christians might dismiss that as delusional or you might find that orthodox Christistianity would consider that demonic. But from liberal to ultra-orthodox to fundamentalist that sort of claim is antithetical to Christian teaching. I suspect much of his teaching and practices follow a similar path- dressed up Christian language violently ripped from any context whether by liberal or orthodox interpretation. And yet christianity and that belief can easily be mixed; haitian voodoo comes to mind, and I'm pretty sure I remember hearing about other african versions of christianity that include spirits. When it comes to religion, antithetical things are rarely a problem. Ultimately people believe in what they want. Not easily. Not without ignoring core tenents of the faith. Well obviously their version of christianism doesn't consider this a core tenent of the faith. Are we comfortable with saying they are incorrect? Cause I don't think I am.
I am very comfortable. Christianity has lots of internal disagreements between denominations, but it has never been a Bahai, everything goes. But as I don't want to derail this into a religious discussion that is the last I will say of it.
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On January 08 2015 10:24 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 10:20 Maluk wrote:On January 08 2015 10:16 Nebuchad wrote:On January 08 2015 10:04 Falling wrote:On January 08 2015 09:57 Nebuchad wrote:On January 08 2015 09:38 Falling wrote:On January 08 2015 09:16 Paljas wrote:On January 08 2015 09:05 darkness wrote:On January 08 2015 09:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 08 2015 08:58 darkness wrote:
[quote]
Well, do you ask yourself why other Europeans aren't checked that much? It's not skin. If you open your eyes, you may realise that terror attacks have been present recently mainly because some people refuse to integrate with a country's culture and democratic believes. I live in Norway and it looks like last time someone refused to integrate the country pacifist culture and its democratic beliefs and made a massacre, he was a white christian norwegian. Why, why, why, why do we have to turn that discussion into a far right bot flame war? For Christ sake, those guys who got killed were fighting against those ideas. Turning their death into an arguments against european muslims and immigrants is to kill them a second time. I'm not saying terror attacks are inherently committed by muslims. You're right about the case you mention but what I refer to is the cause of those recent attacks. It's often because someone expresses a disagreement about their religion. When was the last time a christian killed a muslim or another christian for the sake of religion? A long time ago. Edit: Unfortunately, if the world doesn't solve this integration problem, nazi/radical parties may as well come back. a long time ago? there are still religious wars between christians and muslims going on right now. or how about this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army From my readings on the purported beliefs of Kony's LRA, it could hardly be called Christian. And it has little to do with no true-scotsman. He seems to have a very strange concoction of beliefs, many contrary to Christian thought. For instance, he claims to be guided by spirits "I don't know the number but they speak to me." If you look through the countless denominations, you might find liberal Christians might dismiss that as delusional or you might find that orthodox Christistianity would consider that demonic. But from liberal to ultra-orthodox to fundamentalist that sort of claim is antithetical to Christian teaching. I suspect much of his teaching and practices follow a similar path- dressed up Christian language violently ripped from any context whether by liberal or orthodox interpretation. And yet christianity and that belief can easily be mixed; haitian voodoo comes to mind, and I'm pretty sure I remember hearing about other african versions of christianity that include spirits. When it comes to religion, antithetical things are rarely a problem. Ultimately people believe in what they want. Not easily. Not without ignoring core tenents of the faith. Well obviously their version of christianism doesn't consider this a core tenent of the faith. Are we comfortable with saying they are incorrect? Cause I don't think I am. Well it is actually incorrect. Christianism doesn't admit the existence of spirits. The Holy Ghost/Spirit?
he's considered to be part of the trinity, not a ghost with a bed sheet above his head.
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On January 08 2015 10:20 Maluk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 10:16 Nebuchad wrote:On January 08 2015 10:04 Falling wrote:On January 08 2015 09:57 Nebuchad wrote:On January 08 2015 09:38 Falling wrote:On January 08 2015 09:16 Paljas wrote:On January 08 2015 09:05 darkness wrote:On January 08 2015 09:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 08 2015 08:58 darkness wrote:On January 08 2015 08:54 nojok wrote:
[quote]
Wtf?! One of my best friends is a black Muslim, I've been checked 11 times by the police in my life, 10 times with him. I've several other sons of immigrant friends, life is just tougher for them. The problem comes from our society not them. Sure it was easier to integrate Polish, Russians, Portuguese , Italians etc in France but they got accepted once a new wave of immigrants arrived. Also most of our wonderful health system works because of underpaid North African doctors. I could get other exemples.
I put this on ignorance but you should visit some North African countries to see what values they have we don't have. Yes there are problems but more often than not the shit comes from Europe and US in the grand scheme of things. Well, do you ask yourself why other Europeans aren't checked that much? It's not skin. If you open your eyes, you may realise that terror attacks have been present recently mainly because some people refuse to integrate with a country's culture and democratic believes. I live in Norway and it looks like last time someone refused to integrate the country pacifist culture and its democratic beliefs and made a massacre, he was a white christian norwegian. Why, why, why, why do we have to turn that discussion into a far right bot flame war? For Christ sake, those guys who got killed were fighting against those ideas. Turning their death into an arguments against european muslims and immigrants is to kill them a second time. I'm not saying terror attacks are inherently committed by muslims. You're right about the case you mention but what I refer to is the cause of those recent attacks. It's often because someone expresses a disagreement about their religion. When was the last time a christian killed a muslim or another christian for the sake of religion? A long time ago. Edit: Unfortunately, if the world doesn't solve this integration problem, nazi/radical parties may as well come back. a long time ago? there are still religious wars between christians and muslims going on right now. or how about this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army From my readings on the purported beliefs of Kony's LRA, it could hardly be called Christian. And it has little to do with no true-scotsman. He seems to have a very strange concoction of beliefs, many contrary to Christian thought. For instance, he claims to be guided by spirits "I don't know the number but they speak to me." If you look through the countless denominations, you might find liberal Christians might dismiss that as delusional or you might find that orthodox Christistianity would consider that demonic. But from liberal to ultra-orthodox to fundamentalist that sort of claim is antithetical to Christian teaching. I suspect much of his teaching and practices follow a similar path- dressed up Christian language violently ripped from any context whether by liberal or orthodox interpretation. And yet christianity and that belief can easily be mixed; haitian voodoo comes to mind, and I'm pretty sure I remember hearing about other african versions of christianity that include spirits. When it comes to religion, antithetical things are rarely a problem. Ultimately people believe in what they want. Not easily. Not without ignoring core tenents of the faith. Well obviously their version of christianism doesn't consider this a core tenent of the faith. Are we comfortable with saying they are incorrect? Cause I don't think I am. Well it is actually incorrect. Christianism doesn't admit the existence of spirits.
Ultimately it depends whether you think religion is a collection of texts or a collection of beliefs. I prefer the second vision.
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On January 08 2015 10:26 Ishentar wrote:
One of the suspects surrendered : Le monde / AFP / BFM TV. He was the youngest and surrendered to police at Charleville-Mézières, 23h PM.
I think it's the homonym student guy who was in class.
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On January 08 2015 10:33 Boucot wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 10:26 Ishentar wrote:
One of the suspects surrendered : Le monde / AFP / BFM TV. He was the youngest and surrendered to police at Charleville-Mézières, 23h PM. I think it's the homonym student guy who was in class.
Homonym student guy? I missed that part of the story, do you have a link? (french is fine)
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On January 08 2015 10:28 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 10:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 08 2015 10:20 Maluk wrote:On January 08 2015 10:16 Nebuchad wrote:On January 08 2015 10:04 Falling wrote:On January 08 2015 09:57 Nebuchad wrote:On January 08 2015 09:38 Falling wrote:On January 08 2015 09:16 Paljas wrote:On January 08 2015 09:05 darkness wrote:On January 08 2015 09:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:
[quote]
I live in Norway and it looks like last time someone refused to integrate the country pacifist culture and its democratic beliefs and made a massacre, he was a white christian norwegian.
Why, why, why, why do we have to turn that discussion into a far right bot flame war? For Christ sake, those guys who got killed were fighting against those ideas. Turning their death into an arguments against european muslims and immigrants is to kill them a second time. I'm not saying terror attacks are inherently committed by muslims. You're right about the case you mention but what I refer to is the cause of those recent attacks. It's often because someone expresses a disagreement about their religion. When was the last time a christian killed a muslim or another christian for the sake of religion? A long time ago. Edit: Unfortunately, if the world doesn't solve this integration problem, nazi/radical parties may as well come back. a long time ago? there are still religious wars between christians and muslims going on right now. or how about this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army From my readings on the purported beliefs of Kony's LRA, it could hardly be called Christian. And it has little to do with no true-scotsman. He seems to have a very strange concoction of beliefs, many contrary to Christian thought. For instance, he claims to be guided by spirits "I don't know the number but they speak to me." If you look through the countless denominations, you might find liberal Christians might dismiss that as delusional or you might find that orthodox Christistianity would consider that demonic. But from liberal to ultra-orthodox to fundamentalist that sort of claim is antithetical to Christian teaching. I suspect much of his teaching and practices follow a similar path- dressed up Christian language violently ripped from any context whether by liberal or orthodox interpretation. And yet christianity and that belief can easily be mixed; haitian voodoo comes to mind, and I'm pretty sure I remember hearing about other african versions of christianity that include spirits. When it comes to religion, antithetical things are rarely a problem. Ultimately people believe in what they want. Not easily. Not without ignoring core tenents of the faith. Well obviously their version of christianism doesn't consider this a core tenent of the faith. Are we comfortable with saying they are incorrect? Cause I don't think I am. Well it is actually incorrect. Christianism doesn't admit the existence of spirits. The Holy Ghost/Spirit? he's part of the trinity, not a ghost with a bed sheet above his head.
At least that's what some human has invented.
The human mind is truly very creative in these things especially when it is only limited by imagination not by laws of nature or anything else. Religion, government, nations only work because people obey or choose to obey its rules and existence.
If all people would agree that Christianity, Buddhism or whatever religion is stupid and they would abandon it, it would simply cease to exist. Religion is knowledge, or copy of knowledge over generations without there ever being an original.
I have no problem when people indulge in these fantasy worlds, have their rituals build churches and temples and what not as long as they realize, its just that what it is and in the end not real and not worth killing or dying for.
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Canada13389 Posts
More info about the student who supposedly turned himself in, less about religion please.
That again, is not the point of this thread.
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So wait the student who had the same name turned himself in?
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On January 08 2015 10:45 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
So wait the student who had the same name turned himself in?
A very unusual move indeed if this suspect really is responsible for these crimes.
But maybe he had just seen the light of reason in his impossible situation at the very last moment.
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Just another shining example of the poison that religion really is. I cannot help but think of the late Christopher Hitchens. Yes, not all religions nor their respective followers are inherently violent but the three main monotheistic religions all have "divinely inspired" scriptures which promote violence against non-believers. My heart goes out to all the brave victims. Their bravery was not silenced today. And to those who say this event has nothing to do with religion.... tell that to the murderers shouting god is great as they extinguish human lives.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Earlier tonight a young man contacted the police, supposedly a student with the same name as one of the suspects.
He just got released without any charge.
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Said wanted poster:
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6ysuJvCcAATNIq.jpg:large)
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Canada13389 Posts
This is exactly what I was afraid of. To have names released publicly. Thankfully no one got to him before he could see the police. If I were him I would be pretty afraid to be honest. Vigilante justice is a real thing.
On January 08 2015 12:14 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Said wanted poster:
So only 2 not 3 then?
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Spoilered to avoid OT discussion.
+ Show Spoiler +On January 08 2015 10:20 GreenHorizons wrote:
I don't know what qualifies as an objectively core tenant but I can assure you I went to plenty of churches who thought there core beliefs were dramatically different from other Christians. Core beliefs of Christianity are found in the Nicene Creed. Almost all, but not quite all Christians would go on to add the seven ecumenical councils. This is a widely agreed upon definition, and even non-credal Christians generally believe in its tenets (while disparaging the idea of a unified creed). The relation of faith and violence is a tricky question. One side observes that the teaching of Jesus is uniformly anti-violence and that Mohammad was a warlord. The other side observes that both Christians and Muslims have killed people in the name of their faiths. It's true that Islam started as an expansionary empire, and that Christians in the first few centuries universally rejected military service. It's also true that both Islam and Christianity today serve as spiritual and moral guides for hundreds of millions, and he is a fool who stands between anyone and what connects them to the divine. So I think the key to debating this is understanding a difference between theological, historical, and sociological religion. Let members of the faiths debate theological ideas with members of other faiths; let scholars debate the question of history, and all seek to work to allow the social aspects of religion to cooexist (as they have proven they can) in harmony.
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On January 08 2015 12:15 ZeromuS wrote:This is exactly what I was afraid of. To have names released publicly. Thankfully no one got to him before he could see the police. If I were him I would be pretty afraid to be honest. Vigilante justice is a real thing. So only 2 not 3 then?
I don't know this all seems really odd. Seems like some important parts of this story are missing.
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So yeah, watching iTélé and they're saying a suspect, the 3rd one (the youngest, 18 years old) surrendered because he saw his name in social medias.
He was a SDF (without a place to live) and had stopped school.
He's under arrest but not indicted yet and there are still no official sources, basically they spent 5 minutes talking about him to say they know nothing and perhaps he's innocent and has nothing to do with it.
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EPT
