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Read this before posting. Stay civil. As the news continues to develop, please remember no NSFW images or video. Thank you. | ||
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~chut~
France1317 Posts
On January 08 2015 09:04 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: NBC: One of the terrorists was arrested and jailed for two years after trying to recruit people to send to Iraq and kill American soldiers. This part looks true. At least we got the same info in France. | ||
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heliusx
United States2306 Posts
On January 08 2015 08:57 Biff The Understudy wrote: There is no strawmanning. There are people who are using a mass murder commited by French people against French people to throw anti immigration crap that is completely unrelated. It has been said a hundred times: those people were not immigrants. If those guys did not integrate and did not contribute, it is not to blame on immigration, they were French. Blame it on unemployment, bad education, exposure to propaganda, etc etc etc. Is that too hard to understand, or am I "strawmanning"? I think you need a break from this thread. Get some sleep bud. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
On January 08 2015 09:07 ~chut~ wrote: I read it a few times earlier in this thread as well, although I'm too lazy to look them up..This part looks true. At least we got the same info in France. | ||
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Makro
France16890 Posts
it said that journalist are restrained from the area | ||
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dmnum
Brazil6910 Posts
Charlie Hebdo staff: Stéphane Charbonnier, AKA Charb Wolinski Bernard Maris Jean Cabu Bernard Verlhac, AKA Tignous Phillippe Honoré Mustapha Ourad Elsa Cayat Police Officers: Franck Brinsolaro Ahmed Merabet Third-Party: Frédéric Boisseau, a Sodexo employee Michel Renaud, a man who was visiting the Hebdot office Also, Charlie Hebdot's journalist Philippe Lançon is gravely injured. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8216 Posts
On January 08 2015 09:09 Yorbon wrote: I read it a few times earlier in this thread as well, although I'm too lazy to look them up.. Well, it seems that foreign media is saying those arrests did take place while French media is saying that they absolutely didn't happen. I would be inclined to trust Le Monde in that case; they even minutes ago said they had been in contact with the police who has confirmed they didn't arrest / killed anyone. Hard to find out what is info and what is just rumor in those cases. | ||
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Faefae
2203 Posts
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On January 08 2015 09:07 Biff The Understudy wrote: Ok, so people getting into fundamentalist islam are more likely to be from a muslim background and therefore, immigrants of first second or third generation. That sounds logical (even though it's not even always the case, since some of the last ISIS French recruits seen butchering people on those vids were white from christian background but whatever). Does it make the killing an immigration problem or does it shows an obvious link to a hypothetic immigration problem? Not at all. It really has nothing to do with ethnicity or land of birth, it's about ideas and their consequences. Right now, an alarmingly large group of people who self-identify as muslim harbour ideas which are directly at odds with the cornerstone principles of a democracy. How and why this happens is another matter. The debate always gets muddled by this extraordinary confusion. Fundamentally, we are talking about competing visions for how to build a society, which is really a zero-sum game when we are all living in the same place. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8216 Posts
On January 08 2015 09:13 Faefae wrote: Looks like NBC were wrong since the police released wanted notices ? Well, it's really a matter of hours or days before they get them anyway. I think the problem is that they might have to kill them which would be a shame. I hope they get them alive and it doesn't end up à-la-Merah without a trial of any kind. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
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heliusx
United States2306 Posts
On January 08 2015 09:13 Faefae wrote: Looks like NBC were wrong since the police released wanted notices ? Prolly. Over here they like to be first with breaking news, accuracy be damned. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
On January 08 2015 09:12 Biff The Understudy wrote: Agreed, the killing and arresting people seems to be not quite sure yet. Some dutch media have said that as well, but they refer to NBC.Well, it seems that foreign media is saying those arrests did take place while French media is saying that they absolutely didn't happen. I would be inclined to trust Le Monde in that case; they even minutes ago said they had been in contact with the police who has confirmed they didn't arrest / killed anyone. Hard to find out what is info and what is just rumor in those cases. However, I quoted someone talking about the past of one of the killers, I thought it was relatively sure he had been convicted years back? | ||
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
On January 08 2015 09:05 darkness wrote: I'm not saying terror attacks are inherently committed by muslims. You're right about the case you mention but what I refer to is the cause of those recent attacks. It's often because someone expresses a disagreement about their religion. When was the last time a christian killed a muslim or another christian for the sake of religion? A long time ago. Edit: Unfortunately, if the world doesn't solve this integration problem, nazi/radical parties may as well come back. a long time ago? there are still religious wars between christians and muslims going on right now. or how about this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8216 Posts
On January 08 2015 09:14 Squat wrote: It really has nothing to do with ethnicity or land of birth, it's about ideas and their consequences. Right now, an alarmingly large group of people who self-identify as muslim harbour ideas which are directly at odds with the cornerstone principles of a democracy. How and why this happens is another matter. The debate always gets muddled by this extraordinary confusion. Fundamentally, we are talking about competing visions for how to build a society, which is really a zero-sum game when we are all living in the same place. I don't know, Squat, I met a very, very large number of muslims in France, (and have an uncle and cousin who are muslims - he is algerian), and they were all well integrated and as democrat as you and I. It just seems to me that muslims who have a problem with western values (whatever that means: I have very little values in common with Marine Le Pen or Nigel Farage) and their religion are a tiny, tiny minority. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
i hear about political parties that are dedicated to anti muslim, like blocking their immigration and whatnot, how really bad is it? is it mixed feelings or is it mainstream to hate on muslims? (in europe) | ||
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Ishentar
France122 Posts
It's like on many games, and we know it very well on forums, even on Starcraft II, if 1% of the population whine on the forum, it will look like everyone's whining, because the one who aren't, are playing the game, or are posting posts that causes way less debate ... etc... peacefully without posting whine and bothering anyone, but the 1% can spam forums and harm the community a lot. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On January 08 2015 09:23 jinorazi wrote: its unfortunate this will grow more anti-islam sentiment in europe...though i really hope some people are smart enough to step up and protect the minority. i hear about political parties that are dedicated to anti muslim, like blocking their immigration and whatnot, how really bad is it? is it mixed feelings or is it mainstream to hate on muslims? (in europe) It depends on which part of Europe. Hatred towards (radical) muslims can be a lot more loose in Eastern Europe in my opinion, while there is some social pressure in the west to be more tolerant of muslims. | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On January 08 2015 09:17 Biff The Understudy wrote: I don't know, Squat, I met a very, very large number of muslims in France, (and have an uncle and cousin who are muslims - he is algerian), and they were all well integrated and as democrat as you and I. It just seems to me that muslims who have a problem with western values (whatever that means: I have very little values in common with Marine Le Pen or Nigel Farage) and their religion are a tiny, tiny minority. No offense, but this is sort of the confusion I was alluding to. To elucidate: Do these repeated incidents implicate a majority of muslims? No. Do these reccuring issues mean that anyone who believes in Islam must be anti-democratic or in favour of a theology, or even a significant subset of muslims? No. But it does suggest that the ideology itself has some deep, structural problems that simply does not allow it to mesh well with a democratic society when taken as explicit instructions on how humans ought to live in this world. We have a problem with certain ideas which act as catalysts to very dangerous and destructive behaviour. There are tons of these ideas in the world, far from all derive their roots from Islam or religion at all, but that does not mean we should ignore the very real issues that are there to be seen by anyone who cares to look. The fact that such a small minority actually heed the doctrines with kind of rigour required to go out and kill people is a very good thing, but we gain nothing by pretending the ideology bears no blame at all when something like this happens. Edit: by "alarmingly large" I did not mean anything like a majority, or even any kind of significant minority. I meant enough to constitute a real problem. | ||
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