On January 08 2015 00:17 207aicila wrote: I see some level-headed and intelligent individuals in this thread (not to say that everyone else isn't, simply basing that on how people react to an event like this) so I would like to ask everyone a question that has perplexed me for some time and hope that someone more educated on these sorts of issues could help me understand.
Every time something like this happens, there are netizens that go full-on xenophobic nationalist (and to some degree it's understandable, if predictable) and netizens that will say something along the lines of "this is just the doing of extremist fundamentalist nutjobs, you can't blame 1+ billion people for this, I am/know plenty of moderate adepts of islam that don't condone such a thing etc etc".
And that seems like a reasonable reply at first. The fact that you shouldn't make such huge generalizations should be pretty obvious. But here is my question: why do people only say this as if they're trying to save face? Why do they only try to shift the blame away? Why are there no "moderate islamists" protesting AGAINST the people who commit these acts? Why are they not publicly denouncing and shaming them? Why are they not making a clear statement through ACTIONS, not words, that they do not support such things and wish to distance themselves?
Someone on r/news made a very interesting analogy, although sadly that post was not that close to the top of the thread. For many of us, while in school, when two or three kids did stupid shit in class, the teacher might punish the whole class, and the students would straighten those fellows out. Why is this not the case here? Why are the "moderate islamists" enabling this attitude and behaviour, especially when it reflects poorly upon them as a whole?
Not to mention what a Dutch fellow pointed out a few pages back, how there are people on Facebook, residents and citizens of a developed European country, saying these attacks are justified.
If someone could explain to me, why these apologists come out of the woodwork and try to shift the blame away, but then continue to enable these actions by not distancing themselves from the extremists, I would be extremely grateful. I think insight into this would benefit us all.
French Muslim council commentated on the subject and condemned the attack and I feel they shouldn't have to but they're kinda forced because of the racist atmosphere there is in France at the moment.
That's really terrible, terrible news. Nothing can justify killing people. Hopefully the murderers will be caught and judged. edit :
On January 08 2015 00:17 207aicila wrote: I see some level-headed and intelligent individuals in this thread (not to say that everyone else isn't, simply basing that on how people react to an event like this) so I would like to ask everyone a question that has perplexed me for some time and hope that someone more educated on these sorts of issues could help me understand.
Every time something like this happens, there are netizens that go full-on xenophobic nationalist (and to some degree it's understandable, if predictable) and netizens that will say something along the lines of "this is just the doing of extremist fundamentalist nutjobs, you can't blame 1+ billion people for this, I am/know plenty of moderate adepts of islam that don't condone such a thing etc etc".
And that seems like a reasonable reply at first. The fact that you shouldn't make such huge generalizations should be pretty obvious. But here is my question: why do people only say this as if they're trying to save face? Why do they only try to shift the blame away? Why are there no "moderate islamists" protesting AGAINST the people who commit these acts? Why are they not publicly denouncing and shaming them? Why are they not making a clear statement through ACTIONS, not words, that they do not support such things and wish to distance themselves?
Someone on r/news made a very interesting analogy, although sadly that post was not that close to the top of the thread. For many of us, while in school, when two or three kids did stupid shit in class, the teacher might punish the whole class, and the students would straighten those fellows out. Why is this not the case here? Why are the "moderate islamists" enabling this attitude and behaviour, especially when it reflects poorly upon them as a whole?
Not to mention what a Dutch fellow pointed out a few pages back, how there are people on Facebook, residents and citizens of a developed European country, saying these attacks are justified.
If someone could explain to me, why these apologists come out of the woodwork and try to shift the blame away, but then continue to enable these actions by not distancing themselves from the extremists, I would be extremely grateful. I think insight into this would benefit us all.
Well in fact "moderate islamists", as you call them, or just normal muslim people, are protesting against people who commit these acts, whether it be via the newspapers or by going in the streets to protest. They just don't get one fifth of the exposure politicians, experts, etc get.
Okay I see the quoting of the Quran here as pointing out that it is the nature of the religion.
You don't want me to quote the Bible. Equally bloody.
Regardless the people that follow this ideology (wahabi, salafi, takfiri) don't use the Quran properly. They rely on explanations by people who lived around muhammad. Anyway they use the scriptures to fit their own agendas basically.
I'm trying to say 2 things here; - let's not blame Islam - let's not underestimate how dangerous Wahabism is
This is the schism we need to make. Muslims are innocent. The clerics and propaganda channels actually saying that the killings were just are the root of this problem. Like I said earlier in the FB group 'the purest worship' the page owners and most with him declared that the execution of the police officer and the killing of support staff in that building becuase they basically facilitate kuffar activities and shirk and mushrikeen in general.
It's sickening really but let's not do the unintelligent and easy thing to do which is opening a witch hunt on all muslims.
On January 08 2015 01:10 frontliner2 wrote: Okay I see the quoting of the Quran here as pointing out that it is the nature of the religion.
You don't want me to quote the Bible. Equally bloody.
Regardless the people that follow this ideology (wahabi, salafi, takfiri) don't use the Quran properly. They rely on explanations by people who lived around muhammad. Anyway they use the scriptures to fit their own agendas basically.
I'm trying to say 2 things here; - let's not blame Islam - let's not underestimate how dangerous Wahabism is
This is the schism we need to make. Muslims are innocent. The clerics and propaganda channels actually saying that the killings were just are the root of this problem. Like I said earlier in the FB group 'the purest worship' the page owners and most with him declared that the execution of the police officer and the killing of support staff in that building becuase they basically facilitate kuffar activities and shirk and mushrikeen in general.
It's sickening really but let's not do the unintelligent and easy thing to do which is opening a witch hunt on all muslims.
On January 07 2015 23:17 SatedSC2 wrote: I bloody hate religion.
I truly do.
You have your right to do so, but this is not religion. Do not make the terrible mistake of putting everyone in the same basket.
This is the first step towards even more violence and hatred.
It wasnt a mistake, those bloody action forced by a specific religion.
"by a specific kind of people who had a particular vision of her religion"
If u are not in any religion, than there is no possible ways or reasons for u to do any kind of bloody revenge cause of funny cartoons.
Lets set a scenario: You lost both your parents or your whole family or your kid in a tragic but somehow public event. It happened in some way that it made a public debate and/or in the press. Now, every once in a while a couple of cartoonist or magazine makes a satirical drawing about this, drawings of this event in a provocative way, relevant or not, the event that devestated you, that ruined you. Put into the equation that you maybe have a history of slight mental instability.
Another scenario: All school shootings in USA are not religous in any way, still its about revenge or getting back at somebody for words or another way of non-bullying.
These event have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with some crazy individuals that use religion as an EXCUSE.
nobody's saying all shootings are caused by religion. but how can you deny that this one wasn't influenced by religious ideology?
Please take a look at what I responded to. An outlandish claim that something like this could not happen due to anything other than religion.
En 2012, dans une interview du Monde, Charb disait: «Je n'ai pas l'impression d'égorger quelqu'un avec un feutre. Je ne mets pas de vies en danger. Quand les activistes ont besoin d'un prétexte pour justifier leur violence, ils le trouvent toujours» et puis «Je n'ai pas de gosses, pas de femme, pas de voiture, pas de crédit. C'est peut-être un peu pompeux ce que je vais dire, mais je préfère mourir debout que vivre à genoux.»
In 2012 in an interview in "Le monde" Charb said :
I don't have the impression of slitting the throat of someone with a pencil. I'm not making lives at risk. When activist needs a pretext to justify their violence, they always find it. And i have no childrne, no wife, no car, no loans. Maybe i'm gonna sound dumb with what i'm going to say but : "I prefer dying stood up than living crawling".
Sorry for mistakes translation. Charb is one of the drawer that got killed today.
These killings are a terrible thing and my thoughts go out to the families of the victims. It is unfortunate that Islam was involved because it will just increase Islamophobic sentiments. Islam is a beautiful religion overall but there are small groups of extremists that just take it too far.
On January 08 2015 01:10 frontliner2 wrote: Okay I see the quoting of the Quran here as pointing out that it is the nature of the religion.
You don't want me to quote the Bible. Equally bloody.
Regardless the people that follow this ideology (wahabi, salafi, takfiri) don't use the Quran properly. They rely on explanations by people who lived around muhammad. Anyway they use the scriptures to fit their own agendas basically.
I'm trying to say 2 things here; - let's not blame Islam - let's not underestimate how dangerous Wahabism is
This is the schism we need to make. Muslims are innocent. The clerics and propaganda channels actually saying that the killings were just are the root of this problem. Like I said earlier in the FB group 'the purest worship' the page owners and most with him declared that the execution of the police officer and the killing of support staff in that building becuase they basically facilitate kuffar activities and shirk and mushrikeen in general.
It's sickening really but let's not do the unintelligent and easy thing to do which is opening a witch hunt on all muslims.
On January 08 2015 01:10 frontliner2 wrote: Okay I see the quoting of the Quran here as pointing out that it is the nature of the religion.
You don't want me to quote the Bible. Equally bloody.
Regardless the people that follow this ideology (wahabi, salafi, takfiri) don't use the Quran properly. They rely on explanations by people who lived around muhammad. Anyway they use the scriptures to fit their own agendas basically.
I'm trying to say 2 things here; - let's not blame Islam - let's not underestimate how dangerous Wahabism is
This is the schism we need to make. Muslims are innocent. The clerics and propaganda channels actually saying that the killings were just are the root of this problem. Like I said earlier in the FB group 'the purest worship' the page owners and most with him declared that the execution of the police officer and the killing of support staff in that building becuase they basically facilitate kuffar activities and shirk and mushrikeen in general.
It's sickening really but let's not do the unintelligent and easy thing to do which is opening a witch hunt on all muslims.
On January 08 2015 01:10 frontliner2 wrote: Okay I see the quoting of the Quran here as pointing out that it is the nature of the religion.
You don't want me to quote the Bible. Equally bloody.
Regardless the people that follow this ideology (wahabi, salafi, takfiri) don't use the Quran properly. They rely on explanations by people who lived around muhammad. Anyway they use the scriptures to fit their own agendas basically.
I'm trying to say 2 things here; - let's not blame Islam - let's not underestimate how dangerous Wahabism is
This is the schism we need to make. Muslims are innocent. The clerics and propaganda channels actually saying that the killings were just are the root of this problem. Like I said earlier in the FB group 'the purest worship' the page owners and most with him declared that the execution of the police officer and the killing of support staff in that building becuase they basically facilitate kuffar activities and shirk and mushrikeen in general.
It's sickening really but let's not do the unintelligent and easy thing to do which is opening a witch hunt on all muslims.
It's hard not to be filled with hate when something likes this happens. It just seems like there is never a correct response. I'm trying to imagine how the US should react if it happened here. If this happened in America and we decided to send soldiers to fight ISIS in response, would the world criticize the US like they always do? If France militarized against ISIS, shouldn't we support them for showing they are willing to fight for their citizens at all cost?
On January 08 2015 01:10 frontliner2 wrote: Okay I see the quoting of the Quran here as pointing out that it is the nature of the religion.
You don't want me to quote the Bible. Equally bloody.
Regardless the people that follow this ideology (wahabi, salafi, takfiri) don't use the Quran properly. They rely on explanations by people who lived around muhammad. Anyway they use the scriptures to fit their own agendas basically.
I'm trying to say 2 things here; - let's not blame Islam - let's not underestimate how dangerous Wahabism is
This is the schism we need to make. Muslims are innocent. The clerics and propaganda channels actually saying that the killings were just are the root of this problem. Like I said earlier in the FB group 'the purest worship' the page owners and most with him declared that the execution of the police officer and the killing of support staff in that building becuase they basically facilitate kuffar activities and shirk and mushrikeen in general.
It's sickening really but let's not do the unintelligent and easy thing to do which is opening a witch hunt on all muslims.
b-but think about it: no muslims=no shooting
really?
at least in europe, that's pretty much true. if u really must nitpick, no muslims = a lot less shootings
On January 08 2015 01:10 frontliner2 wrote: Okay I see the quoting of the Quran here as pointing out that it is the nature of the religion.
You don't want me to quote the Bible. Equally bloody.
Regardless the people that follow this ideology (wahabi, salafi, takfiri) don't use the Quran properly. They rely on explanations by people who lived around muhammad. Anyway they use the scriptures to fit their own agendas basically.
I'm trying to say 2 things here; - let's not blame Islam - let's not underestimate how dangerous Wahabism is
This is the schism we need to make. Muslims are innocent. The clerics and propaganda channels actually saying that the killings were just are the root of this problem. Like I said earlier in the FB group 'the purest worship' the page owners and most with him declared that the execution of the police officer and the killing of support staff in that building becuase they basically facilitate kuffar activities and shirk and mushrikeen in general.
It's sickening really but let's not do the unintelligent and easy thing to do which is opening a witch hunt on all muslims.
b-but think about it: no muslims=no shooting
really?
at least in europe, that's pretty much true. if u really must nitpick, no muslims = a lot less shootings
But it's bigotry all the same. It's saying if we get rid of a minority the problems of the minority go away. Sure it would in a way. However new problems would arise.
and then again society needs to help emancipate minorities, not criminalize them. If you understand what I mean.
On January 08 2015 01:24 BisuDagger wrote: It's hard not to be filled with hate when something likes this happens. It just seems like there is never a correct response. I'm trying to imagine how the US should react if it happened here. If this happened in America and we decided to send soldiers to fight ISIS in response, would the world criticize the US like they always do? If France militarized against ISIS, shouldn't we support them for showing they are willing to fight for their citizens at all cost?
In a sense i want all of the world bomber to get off now. But in another. Where to strike ? For how many casualties ? Aren't we better than that ? Is there another solution ?
Guys could be jihad wannabes and not even be part of a faction... we don't know anything from now. There is a few report of al quaida. But we don't even know Could be another organization. Could be anything really.
No time to read everything since I'm directly in Paris and in the army...
12 dead, 10 journalists, including 4 famous artists. The policeman who protected Charb is dead, and one in the next street during the escape. killed in cold blood. They escaped from 11th district to Pantin, left their car and stole another one. Around 3000 policemen are on the hunt, many civilianized (? Meaning not marked as police) and police cars are on the way, too, full with action services (GIGN like, but several different services).
Army's help hasn't been enlisted (yet), but every place like where I work has greatly improved security, no vehicle can pass without being searched, back exits are closed, nobody is allowed without an appointment whatever the reason.
Worse terror attack of the last 50years for us, in terms of killings (the RER bombing in 95 had a bigger scale but less body count).
And all this for fucking drawings from journalists who don't even hate islam, they joke about anyone and everyone.
The suspects speak perfect french without any accent, and were heard and recorded saying "Allah Akbar" and "the prophet has been avenged". It is highly suspected that their Charia Hebdo from a few years ago is the main source of hate, further fueled by a few other drawings over the year. They were under police protection but the journalists believed the threats had come down for some time now and the protection got lighter.
Several meetings all over france will be happening this evening to mourn.
And about terrorism, shootings and muslims, stop hating on muslims. Some fuckers made a strategy to bring hate upon themselves (we helped them by invading them long before though, which might have brought them to extremism), and that hate towards muslims helps them recruit more people by saying "look they hate you because you believe in allah, make them pay !", while all they seek is only power and a mean to control people, using islam as a tool to attract weak souls. And that strategy works wonder. After that (see Daech), they just have to continue the killings, even of muslims, to keep control and fear over the population.
99.9% of muslims don't approve, but the more you hate and wage war, the more djihadists will increase numbers. (leaving them alone won't solve the matter though, which makes me a sad panda.)
On January 08 2015 00:34 icystorage wrote: I can confirm that muslims will be offended of the "cartoon" because it's in their belief that they don't want to have images of Allah, Muhammed etc for fear of praying to idols. This...this is a work of fanatics, fanatics who interpret the teachings of the Qur'an wrong, and should not be generalized to all muslims.
p.s. I lived on a muslim-dominant area all my life.
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.
Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority"
Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
Stop here with that, please. See this if you want to derail the thread further. It's not Quran or Bible or Thora that choose to kill, it's people. It's always people.
Yes, books don't shoot people. But let's elaborate on that.
If you managed to hire a hit man to take a life, would you say "It's not I that choose to kill, it's the hit man."?
If instead you managed to convince someone to take a life, would you say "It's not I that chose to kill, it's someone else."?
Then, if a book managed to convince another person to take a life, why say "It isn't books that choose to kill. It's people."
People could do something to a book that can be misinterpreted to take a life. People chose not to - The book does not allow people to do something about it. People could not something to a book that can be misinterpreted to take a life. It isn't books that choose to kill. It's people. Always people.
EPT
