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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On February 24 2015 11:05 cLutZ wrote: Then what is important? Because you said Greece is in "debtor's jail", but havent said why that is the case. Or indicated why someone would lend to Greece without imposing conditions. I mean, Greece doesn't have to accept any of Germany's demands, they can just run a balanced budget starting tomorrow, however they want to, and they don't have to accept any of Germany's conditions. Analogies are never perfect but Greece was unable to repay its debts and so an outside force (Troika) imposed conditions to force a repayment (bailout / austerity program). If Greece refuses they may lose central bank (ECB) support and / or be removed from the Eurozone. So if they don't repay, there's a threat beyond losing access to credit.
Moreover, debtor's prison would be a bit wonky in a modern economy. Sending someone to a workhouse would probably reduce their ability to repay, much like how Greece at 25% unemployment is less able to repay than Greece at 14% unemployment.
I'll also question the ability of Greece to run a surplus (not just primary).
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Greece will only start to repay debt in 2022 and the loans are already stretched until 2060 or something so debt is a long term problem anyway right now. What the EU is not willing to do (and this is actually not just the German position but pretty much a majority opinion right now) is that Greece gets further short term aid without reforming their labour market.
Greek debt service is at 2.6% of their GDP right now.
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On February 24 2015 11:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2015 11:05 cLutZ wrote: Then what is important? Because you said Greece is in "debtor's jail", but havent said why that is the case. Or indicated why someone would lend to Greece without imposing conditions. I mean, Greece doesn't have to accept any of Germany's demands, they can just run a balanced budget starting tomorrow, however they want to, and they don't have to accept any of Germany's conditions. Analogies are never perfect but Greece was unable to repay its debts and so an outside force (Troika) imposed conditions to force a repayment (bailout / austerity program). If Greece refuses they may lose central bank (ECB) support and / or be removed from the Eurozone. So if they don't repay, there's a threat beyond losing access to credit. Moreover, debtor's prison would be a bit wonky in a modern economy. Sending someone to a workhouse would probably reduce their ability to repay, much like how Greece at 25% unemployment is less able to repay than Greece at 14% unemployment. I'll also question the ability of Greece to run a surplus (not just primary).
It would be really easy for Greece to run a surplus. Its just politically unpopular.
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On February 24 2015 11:42 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +Germany seems to want other countries to follow its example of exporting (competitiveness ho!) and frugality. But not everyone can net export and be frugal.
Correcting for the imbalance for PIIGS is painful, correcting for the imbalance for Germany is not. German consumers can buy more stuff (so painful omg!!), German businesses can invest more in Germany (so painful omg!!) and German workers can get paid more (so painful omg!!). The only thing for Germany that would be painful is debt reduction for the PIIGS, which they could largely avoid by just doing the non-painful stuff. Yet Germans are basically saying that they refuse to make Germany a better place because doing so would also help out the PIIGS... and that's just not acceptable to them. The arguments you make refer to asynchronous policies. German wage compression was undertaken over a decade ago, with a view of ameliorating the employment shortfall. This was the time in which according to you, Germany "threw" debt at Greece, although Greece herself was already saddled with her trade deficit. The austerity proselytisation was implemented half a decade ago to sell the country on the bailout policy demanded by the Greek government. There is no reason to conflate consequences with motives, as if Germany were not only responsible for her domestic welfare, but also held exclusive moral agency for the entire Eurozone, that she is singularly held to account for the fortunes of the entire continent, whereas merely a few years ago it was the common understanding that national finances were a sovereign matter. If Germany cannot loan to Greece and expect to be repaid, how much less can Greeks complain of violations to their sovereignty via German-imposed wage cuts, when they themselves seek to dictate German wage policy? Greeks aren't dictating wage policy to Germany. I and others have suggested that as one way to mitigate the current disaster.
Recent history of Germany net lending:
![[image loading]](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72070179/NetLending.PNG) Germany really started net lending, and businesses stopped borrowing, after the Euro was adopted.
Another bit of history: when Germany was trying to get unemployment down in the mid 2000's all its neighbors were doing well and so were able to help Germany along by buying its exports. Conversely, Greece is trying to reform when its neighbors aren't doing well either and the one of the few doing well (Germany) isn't willing to buy its shit (idk, olive oil and Kripp T-shirts?).
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On February 24 2015 11:42 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +Germany seems to want other countries to follow its example of exporting (competitiveness ho!) and frugality. But not everyone can net export and be frugal.
Correcting for the imbalance for PIIGS is painful, correcting for the imbalance for Germany is not. German consumers can buy more stuff (so painful omg!!), German businesses can invest more in Germany (so painful omg!!) and German workers can get paid more (so painful omg!!). The only thing for Germany that would be painful is debt reduction for the PIIGS, which they could largely avoid by just doing the non-painful stuff. Yet Germans are basically saying that they refuse to make Germany a better place because doing so would also help out the PIIGS... and that's just not acceptable to them. The arguments you make refer to asynchronous policies. German wage compression was undertaken over a decade ago, with a view of ameliorating the employment shortfall. This was the time in which according to you, Germany "threw" debt at Greece, although Greece herself was already saddled with her trade deficit. The austerity proselytisation was implemented half a decade ago to sell the country on the bailout policy demanded by the Greek government. There is no reason to conflate consequences with motives, as if Germany were not only responsible for her domestic welfare, but also held exclusive moral agency for the entire Eurozone, that she is singularly held to account for the fortunes of the entire continent, whereas merely a few years ago it was the common understanding that national finances were a sovereign matter. If Germany cannot loan to Greece and expect to be repaid, how much less can Greeks complain of violations to their sovereignty via German-imposed wage cuts, when they themselves seek to dictate German wage policy?
Greece's long-term health is in Germany's self-interest. So there is that to weight the expectation; that Germans will do what is best for Germany by doing what is best for Europe.
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Just out of curiosity, why is there so little discussion about what's going on in the Ukraine around here?
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Another bit of history: when Germany was trying to get unemployment down in the mid 2000's all its neighbors were doing well and so were able to help Germany along by buying its exports. Conversely, Greece is trying to reform when its neighbors aren't doing well either and the one of the few doing well (Germany) isn't willing to buy its shit (idk, olive oil and Kripp T-shirts?).
Right, because everyone was/is buying German prodcts out of kindness...
Even if so, what should the population of the "richer" countries do then? There are no Greek products...
Edit: being a bit populistic here, but some posts read like it would be so easy to solve the whole crisis but the "rich" countries are either too retarded to understand it or are super diabolic and just want to see Greece suffer...
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On February 24 2015 15:35 xDaunt wrote: Just out of curiosity, why is there so little discussion about what's going on in the Ukraine around here? Because conversations relating to that situation often get derailed or a bit too heated and the mods don't want that. We also don't want the thread closed when the rest of the conversation has been interesting for us. There is still some conversation about it here and there including talk about the sanctions.
Also from what I can tell there's a little more interest here in the economics and political decisions relating to economics than topics unrelated to economics, but it'd mainly be the first reason.
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There was a thread about Ukraine but it was closed. I personaly would like to see it back. Its most important issue of current European politics. Alas, the discussion in Ukraine thread was very heated full of accusations and blantant political propaganda.The requirement for proper Ukraine thread would be very strict banning policy. Some users shouldnt be part of this disscussion because they are too inveested in the topic.
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Zurich15313 Posts
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That wont reduce the deficit...its just a way to redistribute income. To reduce the deficit you need to cut government spending and/or raise revenue and most income tax increases on the rich produce only modest revenue. The reason Europe successfully taxes such a larger % of its GDP compared to the USA is that they have much larger consumption taxes.
In economy there is a keynesian law called the consumption function that basically says that the % of your revenu that you allocate to consumption decrease as your revenu increase. In this regard, inequalities increase savings. A society with 1 guy with 100 000 € and two guy with 1 000 € has a higher saving rate than a society with three guy at 34 000 €. So yeah, increasing tax on rich and decreasing tax on lower income is a redistribution of income from the rich to the poor, but it is also a way to increase consumption.
Eastern Europe is fine, for now. The common currency only becomes a "problem" if you get into deep debt. Its an advantage as long as you aren't in a recession where deleveraging needs to be the country's top priority. That's untrue. The euro is always a problem, but it heavily depend on the structuration of your economy. Italy is the country that is suffering the most in europe from the euro, not greece actually : it is heavily oriented toward business within the eurozone (which mean no exchange rate at all), it is also quite industrialized (but compete with the german industry without any exchange rate), etc. Exemple, in France the euro is an advantage in Ile de France, because its not very industrialized and very oriented toward services and international trade, while in the northern europe, who used to be industrialized, it has been a complete and utter disaster.
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(Reuters) - An inflation-busting wage deal for Germany's biggest labor union agreed on Tuesday looks set to boost household spending this year after consumer activity propelled strong growth in Europe's largest economy at the end of 2014.
With record-high employment and rising wages, consumers are providing the main impetus for a traditionally export-reliant economy. Private consumption grew by 0.8 percent in the fourth quarter of 2014, matching its sharpest rises in three years.
Germany is under pressure to increase wages and invest more to help reduce economic imbalances and boost the flagging euro zone economy. Fourth-quarter gross domestic product (GDP) data suggested this is starting to happen.
The Statistics Office confirmed an earlier flash estimate that the economy grew 0.7 percent at the end of last year.
"That sets us up really well for this year and it means that the prospects for a solid 2015 growth rate are good," said BayernLB economist Stefan Kipar, adding that he expected 1.7 percent growth this year but it could be closer to 2 percent.
Robust end-year growth came after Germany narrowly avoided a recession in the middle of 2014 because of weakness in the euro zone and uncertainty stemming from the Ukraine crisis.
Domestic demand contributed 0.5 percentage points to growth, gross capital investment 0.2 percentage points and foreign trade 0.2 points. Gross capital investment levels, which plunged in the middle of last year, bounced back to expand 1.2 percent, with plant, equipment and construction spending increasing.
The German government expects the economy, which expanded by 1.6 percent overall last year, to grow by 1.5 percent this year, helped by a weaker euro and lower oil prices.
Consumer morale is at its highest in more than 13 years and after trade union IG Metall agreed on Tuesday to a 3.4 percent wage increase for one year from April for the southwest region, plus a one-off payment of 150 euros, there is no sign of that abating. IG Metall said the deal would help boost consumption.
Agreements in this pilot region traditionally serve as a template for the 3.7 million workers whom the union represents nationwide. The increase is much higher than Germany's 2014 inflation rate of 0.9 percent.
"Today's IG Metall deal suggests that newly negotiated deals may be firm this year and that this will keep negotiated pay overall in the economy at 3 percent," said Greg Fuzesi, an economist at J.P.Morgan. source
(Reuters) - Greece has promised not to roll back any ongoing or completed privatizations and ensure that any state spending to address a "humanitarian crisis" does not hurt its budget, according to a document containing its reform plans seen by Reuters on Tuesday.
The list of reforms aims to offer compromises on major issues such as labor reforms and social spending to satisfy both European partners funding the country and Greek voters who voted in a left-wing government to end years of rigid austerity.
Greece needed to present its plans as a condition for extending its bailout program for four months in a deal struck with euro zone partners on Friday.
On the issue of minimum wages, for example, Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras's government climbed down from election pledges to raise the level immediately. Instead it said it would phase in collective bargaining with a view to raising minimum wages over time and that any changes would be agreed with partners.
Greece also said it would reform the public sector wage system in a way that would not reduce pay further but would ensure that the overall public wage bill does not rise.
Athens also committed to consolidating pension funds to achieve savings, and eliminate loopholes and incentives for early retirement - in an apparent effort to find a compromise between the government's objective of avoiding any further pension cuts as previously demanded by EU and IMF inspectors. source
The agreement permits Greece to lower previously agreed upon targets on a primary budget surplus, which doesn’t include interest payments on debt. That could give Tsipras some room to at least come good on some pre-election pledges.
In return, though, the Greek government will refrain from unilateral action that may risk budget goals and not annul most economic reforms included in the bailout agreements.
“The agreement includes several concessions by the Greek side, but it also enables the government to save face internally,” analysts at Athens-based Eurobank Equities, including Nikos Koskoletos, wrote in a note to clients dated Feb. 24. “The agreement does not address the coverage of Greece’s financing needs, especially in the context of the present tight situation as regards available cash buffers.” source
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On February 24 2015 12:14 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2015 11:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On February 24 2015 11:05 cLutZ wrote: Then what is important? Because you said Greece is in "debtor's jail", but havent said why that is the case. Or indicated why someone would lend to Greece without imposing conditions. I mean, Greece doesn't have to accept any of Germany's demands, they can just run a balanced budget starting tomorrow, however they want to, and they don't have to accept any of Germany's conditions. Analogies are never perfect but Greece was unable to repay its debts and so an outside force (Troika) imposed conditions to force a repayment (bailout / austerity program). If Greece refuses they may lose central bank (ECB) support and / or be removed from the Eurozone. So if they don't repay, there's a threat beyond losing access to credit. Moreover, debtor's prison would be a bit wonky in a modern economy. Sending someone to a workhouse would probably reduce their ability to repay, much like how Greece at 25% unemployment is less able to repay than Greece at 14% unemployment. I'll also question the ability of Greece to run a surplus (not just primary). It would be really easy for Greece to run a surplus. Its just politically unpopular.
Run a surplus? As in, total surplus, debt service included?
Let's just go with Nyxisto's 2.6% GDP for servicing debt figure. Government spending last year was 58% of GDP (it was 46% before 2010, thank the fantastic program for that, if only troika remembered to correctly calculate the macroeconomic multiplier!) which means that we'd have to run primary surplus of 4.5% GDP to break even. (edit: I think this number includes t-bonds which may or may not throw the rest of the numbers off, depending on how the 2.6% gdp for debt servicing is calculated. Actual number for interest payments expected in 2014 budget forecast is 6.15bn, in any case)
If, by some wizardry and contrary to recent experience in Greece, or any other country ever for that matter that tries to get bigger surpluses not during a boom, we didn't spiral into a new recession and even assume a humongus growth rate of 5% every year (lol), we'd be able to get to a 108% GDP ratio in... 10 years. I think Norway managed such a surplus for such a length of time, mostly because of oil profits alongside good management. If you think the Aegean is about to start gushing oil tell people about it!
Nevermind loan repayments, 2022 start of repayment is only for EFSF, this is the actual maturity profile for Greek debt (2015 probably includes t-bills and such seems way too high otherwise) + Show Spoiler +
So... yeah. Easy.
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On February 24 2015 15:35 xDaunt wrote: Just out of curiosity, why is there so little discussion about what's going on in the Ukraine around here? People got angry that they couldn't control and manipulate discourse about the Ukraine situation so it lead to the thread being closed. Along with zatic's link the MH17 feedback thread would be an interesting read. So we don't really mention Ukraine anymore, I'm kind of surprised there haven't been more people 'not in the loop' opening threads about the war.
By the way, you guys should talk more about other countries besides Germany and Greece.
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United States22883 Posts
On February 24 2015 15:49 Alathya wrote:Show nested quote +Another bit of history: when Germany was trying to get unemployment down in the mid 2000's all its neighbors were doing well and so were able to help Germany along by buying its exports. Conversely, Greece is trying to reform when its neighbors aren't doing well either and the one of the few doing well (Germany) isn't willing to buy its shit (idk, olive oil and Kripp T-shirts?). Right, because everyone was/is buying German prodcts out of kindness... Even if so, what should the population of the "richer" countries do then? There are no Greek products... Edit: being a bit populistic here, but some posts read like it would be so easy to solve the whole crisis but the "rich" countries are either too retarded to understand it or are super diabolic and just want to see Greece suffer... Consumers buy German products because they're better. In the long run, even without the wage suppression, very few countries' industries are going to compete with Germany's in a free trade zone, given their size/talent/resources/etc. Having a corrupt/mismanaged government doesn't help, but really that just expedited everything.
But praising Germany's superior industries/companies/products is missing the forest for the trees. In simple terms, Germany has been ignoring basic principles of comparative advantage, and is just beating everyone in every category because it has an absolute advantage in almost everything compared to its neighbors. And even when Germany's end product don't have a quality advantage, they have a price advantage because it's cheaper than it should be. Wages need to go up so the cost of German products go up so Germany isn't able to produce everything and crush its neighbors with higher quality/artificially cheaper products. That's why its trade surplus is killing the eurozone.
In the short run, what Germany did is better for consumers across the EU. In the long run, it's devastating for both producers and consumers because they just can't compete, and then consumers stop consuming.
It's not about rich countries and poor countries. It's about Germany and the rest of the eurozone countries. Given the same path, eventually France would be in the same position Greece is, despite actually being more efficient with its resources than Germany. France actually did everything they were supposed to do - they were team players. Germany was not.
Germany is the super hot girl, who only makes friends with ugly girls because they make her look better by comparison. And then whenever her ugly friends get boyfriends, Germany tries to steal them.
There's really 2 issues: 1. What does Greece do about its debt and 2. What does the EU do going forward? If Germany doesn't correct #2, then #1 is irrelevant. Greece can fix its shit or win 100 Powerball lotteries, and the same thing is going to repeat itself with another country.
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On February 24 2015 22:46 Taguchi wrote:Nevermind loan repayments, 2022 start of repayment is only for EFSF, this is the actual maturity profile for Greek debt (2015 probably includes t-bills and such seems way too high otherwise) + Show Spoiler +So... yeah. Easy.
By no means "easy" but Syriza's choice to make debt renegotiation a key part of their campaign was a publicity stunt. 2.6% debt service is only slightly above France (2.2%) and way below other European countries such as Portugal. The key point still is the dispute about labour market reforms as a requirement for short-term bailout.
Also apparently some compromise has been found today and Greece will stay solvent for four more months.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/24/us-eurozone-greece-idUSKBN0LR0ZX20150224
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But praising Germany's superior industries/companies/products is missing the forest for the trees. In simple terms, Germany has been ignoring basic principles of comparative advantage, and is just beating everyone in every category because it has an absolute advantage in almost everything compared to its neighbors. And even when Germany's end product don't have a quality advantage, they have a price advantage because it's cheaper than it should be. Wages need to go up so the cost of German products go up so Germany isn't able to produce everything and crush its neighbors with higher quality/artificially cheaper products. That's why its trade surplus is killing the eurozone. That's a fun way to put it. Germany has a competitive advantage in specific fields, mainly industry. It's quite easy to make it seem like Germany is the absolute best in everything, and to be fair it's quite wrong.
Take the agriculture and food industry, France was the 1st productor in Europe some years ago. Germany then was angry at the common agricultural policy. What has happened ? Germany has developped an industrial and intensive food production, in the porcine industry for exemple - a terrible model from an ethical and environmental point of view btw, which shows the hypocrisy when northern countries cry against the "foie gras" - and paid its worker from three to five time less than French workers in the same industry. How is that a competitive advantage ? It's just using the euro and the schenghen treaty as a tool for economic warfare. Now the problem is not Germany, it is the legal frame that permit such behavior that is in question (every countries in europe are doing this from a lesser extent, it's not only germany, but in this game the some countries - Poland, Germany, France to a lesser extent - are better than others).
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On February 25 2015 01:36 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +But praising Germany's superior industries/companies/products is missing the forest for the trees. In simple terms, Germany has been ignoring basic principles of comparative advantage, and is just beating everyone in every category because it has an absolute advantage in almost everything compared to its neighbors. And even when Germany's end product don't have a quality advantage, they have a price advantage because it's cheaper than it should be. Wages need to go up so the cost of German products go up so Germany isn't able to produce everything and crush its neighbors with higher quality/artificially cheaper products. That's why its trade surplus is killing the eurozone. That's a fun way to put it. Germany has a competitive advantage in specific fields, mainly industry. It's quite easy to make it seem like Germany is the absolute best in everything, and to be fair it's quite wrong. Take the agriculture and food industry, France was the 1st productor in Europe some years ago. Germany then was angry at the common agricultural policy. What has happened ? Germany has developped an industrial and intensive food production, in the porcine industry for exemple - a terrible model from an ethical and environmental point of view btw, which shows the hypocrisy when northern countries cry against the "foie gras" - and paid its worker from three to five time less than French workers in the same industry. How is that a competitive advantage ? It's just using the euro and the schenghen treaty as a tool for economic warfare. Now the problem is not Germany, it is the legal frame that permit such behavior that is in question (every countries in europe are doing this from a lesser extent, it's not only germany, but in this game the some countries - Poland, Germany, France to a lesser extent - are better than others).
The Euro experiment has failed. It was always destined to fail without its member countries giving up an extraordinary amount of sovereignty. This Greece/Germany bickering is rather pointless.
The real question is whether the Euro member states will realize the inevitable. They either will need to give up a vast amount of economic sovereignty to make the common currency work, or dissolve the Euro Union altogether.
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It's understandable that some people think Euro (currency) is bad but when someone says that European Union is a "failed experiment" I just can't take him seriously. Explain to me why economic freedoms (especially freedom of movement) are bad for Europe. Tell me what's wrong with the European Court of Justice or judicial cooperation in EU. Tell me we should dissolve the Union and negotiate treaties separately, from weaker position.
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On February 25 2015 02:22 Sent. wrote: It's understandable that some people think Euro (currency) is bad but when someone says that European Union is a "failed experiment" I just can't take him seriously. Explain to me why economic freedoms (especially freedom of movement) are bad for Europe. Tell me what's wrong with the European Court of Justice or judicial cooperation in EU. Tell me we should dissolve the Union and negotiate treaties separately, from weaker position. The problem is that y'all have given Germany the freedom to bugger y'all economically.
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