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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
On December 05 2016 09:29 LegalLord wrote: I lose track of who is the PM of Italy because they just keep changing so often. They're cycling through them as fas as late Roman emperors. Oh, it's not that bad. Some of those Roman emperors were crazy dudes who were all about the money and the orgies. At least there's none of that anymore. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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Laurens
Belgium4558 Posts
On December 05 2016 09:15 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Then why is everyone panicked about the EU then? Not because Italy might leave, but because their banks (or the 3rd biggest bank in particular) are already in trouble, and they already have huge debt, and the uncertainty that may come with re-elections might make them collapse. And that is obviously bad news for the EU. Fingers crossed they keep their shit together. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6326 Posts
On December 05 2016 07:17 LegalLord wrote: What anti-trade views? She was quite pro-trade until the country took a decidedly anti-trade position on the issue and she flipped her position. Flip flop or not she clearly was against TPP in her election programme. Even if its just for electoral reasons she took an anti trade stance. I think the panic about this referendum is way overblown. This is not some anti EU vote. I would've voted no if I were Italian and I'm pretty pro EU. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18487 Posts
On December 05 2016 16:30 RvB wrote: Flip flop or not she clearly was against TPP in her election programme. Even if its just for electoral reasons she took an anti trade stance. I think the panic about this referendum is way overblown. This is not some anti EU vote. I would've voted no if I were Italian and I'm pretty pro EU. Italy does seem to need constitutional reforms quite desperately. I wouldn't dismiss the proposal outright, although that guaranteed majority in parliament for the governing party seems extremely undemocratic. Granted, I haven't looked much at the proposal and don't know the details. I might be understanding it wrong, and it's more like the way most European countries choose their government (thus curbing the power of the president rather than of the parliament). | ||
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MyTHicaL
France1070 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
Can someone explain in their words what the referendum was about? They don't want something. What don't they want? A stronger government? | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
Kind of an odd gambit but that's basically what it was. Of all the odd referenda in recent times this is certainly one of the most bizarre ones. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On December 05 2016 08:35 SoSexy wrote: Sorry guys, I promised I would give you insight but ended up watching it live with my parents. Anyways, Italian PM just announced his resignation. Current coverage is: YES 40,5 NO 59,5 And just to look cool: So not only was your prediction pretty much what everyone else was predicting, but you apparently got it wrong since the No is currently at 59,11%. Congrats, I guess?  | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6326 Posts
On December 04 2016 09:02 TheDwf wrote: Key word being “long term”. As Keynes said, “in the long run we are all dead”. It's not even a joke here, the WEF recently calculated that given the current rhythm, equal pay for men and women would be reached in... 2186. Don't know how reliable this calculation is, but at any rate patriarchy isn't going to disappear any time soon. In the meantime I don't see how using “bandaids” so that pensions for retired women aren't atrociously small(er) is “terrible”. You're probably not an aged woman facing the perspective of a shitty pension because of life, so I guess it helps in being indifferent to the issue. This is the problem with liberal thinking, it considers society in an abstract way and individuals in a vacuum, so it misses actual power balances and basic realities. If women work less, it's not (necessarily) because they want it, it's because an oppressive social structure cornered them into depreciated jobs with worse conditions (depreciated for no other reason than “because they're mostly feminized professions”). Thus it makes no sense to hide behind the “but the pension system works like this, rules are rules” precisely because its very functioning reproduces and even amplifies that injustice, which has to be compensated in one way or another. I haven't seen the calculation so I can't really comment extensively but the WEF looks at a worldwide perspective while we're just living in the west. Only a fraction of the gender pay gap is due to discrimination in the EU and the US. Some women are paid less than men for doing the same job. This factor only explains a small part of the gender pay gap, due to the effectiveness of the European Union and national legislation. Specifically, variables have been developed to represent career interruption among workers with specific gender, age, and number of children. Statistical analysis that includes those variables has produced results that collectively account for between 65.1 and 76.4 percent of a raw gender wage gap of 20.4 percent, and thereby leave an adjusted gender wage gap that is between 4.8 and 7.1 percent. Yet a part of that 5 - 7% wage gap can also be explained by other factors such as a inferior negotiating skills or a preference for benefits not in wages. The rest is due to individual choice. Some of that is due to culture but saying that an oppressive social structure corners them into making choices leaves out all individual choice and responsibility. It's also leaving out the fact that working part time has some huge benefits not expressed in money like spending time with your children. No shit some women choose to trade work and money for that. The biggest problem with a lower retirement age for women is that it does nothing to reduce this perceived injustice. A pension is always lower than the wages you received. So when you retire earlier you're only reducing life time earnings making the problem worse instead of better. The way life insurance usually works is that the amount of money you get is based on the amount of premium you paid and the expected time you receive the life insurance. What you're doing by lowering the retirement age is both reducing the amount of premiums you paid in and increasing the expected time the life insurance will have to pay you. You're increasing costs by 2 ways. In the end you'll receive less money yearly. web.archive.org ec.europa.eu | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/e9uTiFR.png) | ||
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MyTHicaL
France1070 Posts
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
On December 05 2016 19:58 kwizach wrote: Bad news for Italy. The reform was not perfect, but it was a step in the right direction to allow for more effective and stable governance. So not only was your prediction pretty much what everyone else was predicting, but you apparently got it wrong since the No is currently at 59,11%. Congrats, I guess? It was definetely not what everyone else was predicting - at least not the majority of the italian press. If I were off by 1% in every prediction I do in my life? I'd happily accept that. The outcome was way more volatile than what people abroad perceived. Now, today Renzi will go to the president of the republic and resign. A new PM will be appointed. I will tell you my prediction: Padoan (minister of economy) or Grasso (president of the Senate). I elaborated it yesterday night at 2.00 am, now it's shared by many. Especially because Padoan canceled all the meetings he had today in Bruxelles. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 05 2016 20:45 MyTHicaL wrote: I'm confused. Green is the green party aka the guy who won. Blue is the far right? I have never been to Austria so am completely ignorant but are the green areas the most densely populated? o_o By a very large margin? That map can't be right!? Well, if big cities are in green, it's perfectly possible. Did you see the same map for Clinton vs Trump in the USA? Mostly red, yet Clinton leads in the popular vote. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18487 Posts
On December 05 2016 20:45 MyTHicaL wrote: I'm confused. Green is the green party aka the guy who won. Blue is the far right? I have never been to Austria so am completely ignorant but are the green areas the most densely populated? o_o By a very large margin? That map can't be right!? Vienna, Salzburg, Innsbruck and Graz are all green. Insofar as I remember from geography those are the top 4 cities. In case they're not, Linz, Klagenfurt and Bregenz are also green, and so is Eisenstadt (had never heard of that city before, but it is written in big bold letters). Basically, every city with big bold letters is green on that map. And that ties into something I just don't understand in general. I understand the countryside is socially conservative due to demographics. That seems to be a general thing, whether you're in China, Brazil, the US or anywhere in Europe. But Hofer isn't a social conservative. He's all about limiting immigrants. But immigration problems are primarily CITY problems. Immigrants don't go to some farming town in the middle of the Alps. So how come right wing politicians always have their main power bases in rural areas? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 05 2016 20:45 MyTHicaL wrote: I'm confused. Green is the green party aka the guy who won. Blue is the far right? I have never been to Austria so am completely ignorant but are the green areas the most densely populated? o_o By a very large margin? That map can't be right!? Yeah, it's the big cities. Van der Bellen won in Vienna (=Wien, upper right), Graz, Linz, Salzburg, Innsbruck all with 60-64%, which are the 5 largest cities. In general he won all nine state capitals. He even won many (most?) rural district capitals, so basically the more densely populated, the higher he won. On December 05 2016 20:53 Acrofales wrote: Vienna, Salzburg, Innsbruck and Graz are all green. Insofar as I remember from geography those are the top 4 cities. In case they're not, Linz, Klagenfurt and Bregenz are also green, and so is Eisenstadt (had never heard of that city before, but it is written in big bold letters). Yeah, those are eight of the nine state capitals. In order from biggest to smallest they should be: Vienna, Graz, Linz, Innsbruck, Salzburg, Klagenfurt, Sankt Pölten, Bregenz and Eisenstadt. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On December 05 2016 20:46 SoSexy wrote: It was definetely not what everyone else was predicting - at least not the majority of the italian press. If I were off by 1% in every prediction I do in my life? I'd happily accept that. The outcome was way more volatile than what people abroad perceived. Now, today Renzi will go to the president of the republic and resign. A new PM will be appointed. I will tell you my prediction: Padoan (minister of economy) or Grasso (president of the Senate). I elaborated it yesterday night at 2.00 am, now it's shared by many. Especially because Padoan canceled all the meetings he had today in Bruxelles. All of the latest polls showed the No would most likely win. Renzi's last hope was high turnout in areas favorable to him and undecided voters swinging his way, but it was much more likely that the No would win it. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 05 2016 20:53 Acrofales wrote: And that ties into something I just don't understand in general. I understand the countryside is socially conservative due to demographics. That seems to be a general thing, whether you're in China, Brazil, the US or anywhere in Europe. But Hofer isn't a social conservative. He's all about limiting immigrants. But immigration problems are primarily CITY problems. Immigrants don't go to some farming town in the middle of the Alps. So how come right wing politicians always have their main power bases in rural areas? I guess if there was a simple answer we'd know, but here are my 2cents: They are winning with the older generations, emphasizing traditions and pointing out "how it used to be". People who are left behind in urbanization processes (which has a lot to do with the centers of higher education and new technologies/industries) are more prone to vote for such people. Immigration and crime are just some very easily exploitable phenomenons, because the truth is that there is no "solution", so you can always point out how everyone is "failing". It's not just about immigration, it's about changing industries, changing family portraits and feeling left behind and a different culture. On the other hand, the people who are flexible, who are higher educated and who are younger and therefore do not have a nostalgic memory of "the good old times" are conglomerated more and more in the cities. That's also where globalization jobs go, so pro-EU, pro-globalism, liberalism (in all forms) is much easier to propagate because their advantages are directly visible. Additionally, young, lower-educated man which are easy to radicalize, often with a migration past, like people of the Balkans are one of their main target groups. Funny enough, this is one of their exact arguments of failed immigration politics, overproportionally many young man - and they are not imo, that is a problem - are coming. But since people do not decide based on logics, since people hate the right-winged immigrants and only the right-winged politicians offer radical solutions, they vote for them. | ||
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Mafe
Germany5966 Posts
Also it should be noted that presenting an austrian map simply with such colors as in "who won which district" does not make much sense, as the is no electoral commitee as in the USA. Essentially, the difference between, say, a 60-40 district and a 51-49 district is much more important than the difference between a 51-49 and a 49-51 district. Yet in those maps, the former a both colored the same, but the latter are not. Yes im nitpicking once more, sorry about that. | ||
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