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European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 604

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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
Incognoto
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
France10239 Posts
November 28 2016 15:27 GMT
#12061
On November 29 2016 00:22 TheDwf wrote:
If Fillon applies his program, the French society will explode anyway.


That's probably for the better to be quite frank.
maru lover forever
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
November 28 2016 15:32 GMT
#12062
I don't think she's favored, to be sure. Then again, as you said the campaign hasn't really begun and crazy shit can happen when people hate both candidates. I'm sure people thought Le Pen hit a wall at some points in the past as well, when she was well below the current level.

To some extent it does depend on the opponent. You can't take populist opposition lightly in the face of a populist uprising. Arrogance can mean a loss.

Still, the climb in support that would be needed is significant.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-28 16:11:00
November 28 2016 16:09 GMT
#12063
Yeah, they said that about Trump, they said that about Brexit. Trust me, Austria has been dealing with those right-wingers for 30-years now and the FPÖ has broken every barrier they said they would have. They have risen, they have fucked up beyond believe and now, 10-years later they are at an alltime high. Hofer has gone from a 5% noname to a 50% presidential candidate in the course of a year.

This is not the age of reflecting, argumentative media anymore. This is the new age of political propaganda and retribution crusades against "the establishment".
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
November 28 2016 16:17 GMT
#12064
On another note, I do find it kind of interesting how Russia went from "far left paradise" to "far right paradise" since the end of the Soviet Union, despite the fact that it pretty much is exactly as it was back then. We've always communists, strong support for social programs, and a security complex that seems excessive by a Western standard, yet now different parts of it are emphasized in the Westernlands.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-28 16:43:14
November 28 2016 16:42 GMT
#12065
Well Marxist-Leninist communism is heavily nationalist and authoritarian, Trotsky was kicked out pretty fast. The left utopia would probably be the Spanish Resistance or something along those lines.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-28 17:02:42
November 28 2016 16:58 GMT
#12066
On November 29 2016 01:17 LegalLord wrote:
On another note, I do find it kind of interesting how Russia went from "far left paradise" to "far right paradise" since the end of the Soviet Union, despite the fact that it pretty much is exactly as it was back then. We've always communists, strong support for social programs, and a security complex that seems excessive by a Western standard, yet now different parts of it are emphasized in the Westernlands.


It is a two-sided partnership: Putin gets partners that want to destroy the EU from within, so that russia gets to operate more freely on the balkans and eastern europe again, the right-wingers get recognition from the outside, something their opponent's have been emphasizing that they have not and that voting for them leads into isolation.
It has been said more than once that russia is sponsoring them and right-wingers have observed the Crimean Referendum as "independent, international observers" and given it a little bit of international credibility when no real organization said it would be credible.

Additionally Putin as a strong leader of an old European Nation fits their views on how the order in Europe should look like and how national structures should work.
Last but not least, it is the populist thing to do. The governments in the EU are imposing sanctions, so the anti-thing to do is to pretend they hurt us more than russia and we should be working together more.

I'd go as far as to say that it is part of Putin's geostrategy to prolong conflicts like the Syrian and the Ukrainian and try to destabilize the European nations through refugees and and sanctions until he gets those in power that want to cooperate with him. Then the conflicts will find a quick solution.
Makro
Profile Joined March 2011
France16890 Posts
November 28 2016 17:23 GMT
#12067
On November 29 2016 00:27 Incognoto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2016 00:22 TheDwf wrote:
If Fillon applies his program, the French society will explode anyway.


That's probably for the better to be quite frank.

in what way it would for the better really ?
Matthew 5:10 "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of shitposting, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven".
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
November 28 2016 17:26 GMT
#12068
Russian doctrine has always been to work with people who aren't exactly pleasant, as long as they are actually willing to work with Russia. I can tell you that Russians understand perfectly what is wrong with Trump, Farage, Le Pen, and so on. And yet they have some sympathies towards the Russian positions on a lot of issues that are important to them. So Russia gives them some help on their way - money, a place to speak their mind (RT lets a lot of weird people talk on their show about issues they want to talk about), and sometimes as much as a compliment from Putin (as for Trump). Tell me that if you get severely ostracized in your own country, that a few kind words from the leader of a great power wouldn't sway you.

A cynic would call it "useful idiots." I see it more as an alliance of similar goals. Russia supports strange people who support them instead of normal people who actively oppose them. What would you do in a similar scenario, regardless of ideological alignment? Support your enemies, or your sort of wonky potential allies?
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Yoav
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1874 Posts
November 28 2016 17:41 GMT
#12069
On November 29 2016 02:26 LegalLord wrote:
Russian doctrine has always been to work with people who aren't exactly pleasant, as long as they are actually willing to work with Russia. I can tell you that Russians understand perfectly what is wrong with Trump, Farage, Le Pen, and so on. And yet they have some sympathies towards the Russian positions on a lot of issues that are important to them. So Russia gives them some help on their way - money, a place to speak their mind (RT lets a lot of weird people talk on their show about issues they want to talk about), and sometimes as much as a compliment from Putin (as for Trump). Tell me that if you get severely ostracized in your own country, that a few kind words from the leader of a great power wouldn't sway you.

A cynic would call it "useful idiots." I see it more as an alliance of similar goals. Russia supports strange people who support them instead of normal people who actively oppose them. What would you do in a similar scenario, regardless of ideological alignment? Support your enemies, or your sort of wonky potential allies?


To be honest, I wish my country supported fewer wonky allies. I think we'd get on better in the long run.

Though I certainly understand the Russian perspective. LegalLord, are you actually Russian? I'd always taken you as a western Russian-sympathizer. You don't argue the way most Russians do on the internet (meant as a compliment).
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-28 17:45:29
November 28 2016 17:45 GMT
#12070
On November 29 2016 02:41 Yoav wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2016 02:26 LegalLord wrote:
Russian doctrine has always been to work with people who aren't exactly pleasant, as long as they are actually willing to work with Russia. I can tell you that Russians understand perfectly what is wrong with Trump, Farage, Le Pen, and so on. And yet they have some sympathies towards the Russian positions on a lot of issues that are important to them. So Russia gives them some help on their way - money, a place to speak their mind (RT lets a lot of weird people talk on their show about issues they want to talk about), and sometimes as much as a compliment from Putin (as for Trump). Tell me that if you get severely ostracized in your own country, that a few kind words from the leader of a great power wouldn't sway you.

A cynic would call it "useful idiots." I see it more as an alliance of similar goals. Russia supports strange people who support them instead of normal people who actively oppose them. What would you do in a similar scenario, regardless of ideological alignment? Support your enemies, or your sort of wonky potential allies?


To be honest, I wish my country supported fewer wonky allies. I think we'd get on better in the long run.

Though I certainly understand the Russian perspective. LegalLord, are you actually Russian? I'd always taken you as a western Russian-sympathizer. You don't argue the way most Russians do on the internet (meant as a compliment).

Yes, I'm an actual Russian. I don't live in Russia at the moment (I live in the US) but I do hail from Russia.

Most Russians also don't know English all that well, for what it's worth. And most people who do know English well who are from "Russia" are not of the type who are sympathetic to Russia and Russian interests. Most Russian speakers in the US aren't from Russia in fact - they are from the republics. I am one of the few exceptions in that regard.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Incognoto
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
France10239 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-28 17:48:22
November 28 2016 17:46 GMT
#12071
On November 29 2016 02:23 Makro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2016 00:27 Incognoto wrote:
On November 29 2016 00:22 TheDwf wrote:
If Fillon applies his program, the French society will explode anyway.


That's probably for the better to be quite frank.

in what way it would for the better really ?


French society today is unbearable. Everyone hates everyone, people rioting and protesting in streets, unemployment, rise of the extreme-right, Islamophobia, this constant hate of both money and work, as well as individual responsibility and freedom. Companies getting bought by foreigners, factories closing, etc. Fillon is a monster who embraces disgusting values such as work and private investment.

It's funny how much hate I get from fellow French posters in this thread who, for some reason, seem to think that all of France's problems are caused by the fact that the French government didn't buy them ... employment? Pensions? Handouts?

It's ridiculous how much French society is degenerating. French values are poor today. We're at the point where you have people ready to vote for extreme right nutters over Fillon. That's just fucking bonkers. I'm wondering what's more ingrained in French culture: xenophobia or jealousy.

I'm happy to see that someone who isn't the extreme right saying they're ready to kick things into gear. Change is going to happen, for the better or for the worse. Change though, is eventually progress.
maru lover forever
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
November 28 2016 17:52 GMT
#12072
On November 29 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2016 02:41 Yoav wrote:
On November 29 2016 02:26 LegalLord wrote:
Russian doctrine has always been to work with people who aren't exactly pleasant, as long as they are actually willing to work with Russia. I can tell you that Russians understand perfectly what is wrong with Trump, Farage, Le Pen, and so on. And yet they have some sympathies towards the Russian positions on a lot of issues that are important to them. So Russia gives them some help on their way - money, a place to speak their mind (RT lets a lot of weird people talk on their show about issues they want to talk about), and sometimes as much as a compliment from Putin (as for Trump). Tell me that if you get severely ostracized in your own country, that a few kind words from the leader of a great power wouldn't sway you.

A cynic would call it "useful idiots." I see it more as an alliance of similar goals. Russia supports strange people who support them instead of normal people who actively oppose them. What would you do in a similar scenario, regardless of ideological alignment? Support your enemies, or your sort of wonky potential allies?


To be honest, I wish my country supported fewer wonky allies. I think we'd get on better in the long run.

Though I certainly understand the Russian perspective. LegalLord, are you actually Russian? I'd always taken you as a western Russian-sympathizer. You don't argue the way most Russians do on the internet (meant as a compliment).

Yes, I'm an actual Russian. I don't live in Russia at the moment (I live in the US) but I do hail from Russia.

Most Russians also don't know English all that well, for what it's worth. And most people who do know English well who are from "Russia" are not of the type who are sympathetic to Russia and Russian interests. Most Russian speakers in the US aren't from Russia in fact - they are from the republics. I am one of the few exceptions in that regard.


You shouldn't really have disclosed it. I know I should judge arguments on their merit and I always had your posts in high regard because of their usual quality (when you are not trolling). Sure, I never talked with you much on anything of substance, but that is because I lack the credentials to discuss stuff at your level and you'd just tear me to pieces, wasting the time of both of us. But honestly, you ruined it a little, because I'll just subconsciously bias my reaction to your posts, knowing that you are Russian - and I don't think I can do anything about that, my hate against your nation is just too internalized. At least I am aware of the bias, that might be marginally helpful in restraining myself from reacting.
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-28 17:56:30
November 28 2016 17:55 GMT
#12073
On November 29 2016 02:52 opisska wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:
On November 29 2016 02:41 Yoav wrote:
On November 29 2016 02:26 LegalLord wrote:
Russian doctrine has always been to work with people who aren't exactly pleasant, as long as they are actually willing to work with Russia. I can tell you that Russians understand perfectly what is wrong with Trump, Farage, Le Pen, and so on. And yet they have some sympathies towards the Russian positions on a lot of issues that are important to them. So Russia gives them some help on their way - money, a place to speak their mind (RT lets a lot of weird people talk on their show about issues they want to talk about), and sometimes as much as a compliment from Putin (as for Trump). Tell me that if you get severely ostracized in your own country, that a few kind words from the leader of a great power wouldn't sway you.

A cynic would call it "useful idiots." I see it more as an alliance of similar goals. Russia supports strange people who support them instead of normal people who actively oppose them. What would you do in a similar scenario, regardless of ideological alignment? Support your enemies, or your sort of wonky potential allies?


To be honest, I wish my country supported fewer wonky allies. I think we'd get on better in the long run.

Though I certainly understand the Russian perspective. LegalLord, are you actually Russian? I'd always taken you as a western Russian-sympathizer. You don't argue the way most Russians do on the internet (meant as a compliment).

Yes, I'm an actual Russian. I don't live in Russia at the moment (I live in the US) but I do hail from Russia.

Most Russians also don't know English all that well, for what it's worth. And most people who do know English well who are from "Russia" are not of the type who are sympathetic to Russia and Russian interests. Most Russian speakers in the US aren't from Russia in fact - they are from the republics. I am one of the few exceptions in that regard.


You shouldn't really have disclosed it. I know I should judge arguments on their merit and I always had your posts in high regard because of their usual quality (when you are not trolling). Sure, I never talked with you much on anything of substance, but that is because I lack the credentials to discuss stuff at your level and you'd just tear me to pieces, wasting the time of both of us. But honestly, you ruined it a little, because I'll just subconsciously bias my reaction to your posts, knowing that you are Russian - and I don't think I can do anything about that, my hate against your nation is just too internalized. At least I am aware of the bias, that might be marginally helpful in restraining myself from reacting.

I've mentioned it before. I'm surprised it wasn't obvious to everyone by now. No Westerner talks the way I do on quite a wide range of issues.

In any case, now you know, if you didn't before.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Yoav
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1874 Posts
November 28 2016 17:59 GMT
#12074
On November 29 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2016 02:41 Yoav wrote:
On November 29 2016 02:26 LegalLord wrote:
Russian doctrine has always been to work with people who aren't exactly pleasant, as long as they are actually willing to work with Russia. I can tell you that Russians understand perfectly what is wrong with Trump, Farage, Le Pen, and so on. And yet they have some sympathies towards the Russian positions on a lot of issues that are important to them. So Russia gives them some help on their way - money, a place to speak their mind (RT lets a lot of weird people talk on their show about issues they want to talk about), and sometimes as much as a compliment from Putin (as for Trump). Tell me that if you get severely ostracized in your own country, that a few kind words from the leader of a great power wouldn't sway you.

A cynic would call it "useful idiots." I see it more as an alliance of similar goals. Russia supports strange people who support them instead of normal people who actively oppose them. What would you do in a similar scenario, regardless of ideological alignment? Support your enemies, or your sort of wonky potential allies?


To be honest, I wish my country supported fewer wonky allies. I think we'd get on better in the long run.

Though I certainly understand the Russian perspective. LegalLord, are you actually Russian? I'd always taken you as a western Russian-sympathizer. You don't argue the way most Russians do on the internet (meant as a compliment).

Yes, I'm an actual Russian. I don't live in Russia at the moment (I live in the US) but I do hail from Russia.

Most Russians also don't know English all that well, for what it's worth. And most people who do know English well who are from "Russia" are not of the type who are sympathetic to Russia and Russian interests. Most Russian speakers in the US aren't from Russia in fact - they are from the republics. I am one of the few exceptions in that regard.


Cool. Well, thanks for representing an interesting and (in these here parts) unusual viewpoint well. It's so easy just to write off a lot of the post-soviet world for having such aggressively nihilistic viewpoints with the kind of psychologizing that western liberals (myself among them) tend to do... + Show Spoiler +
Oh, their governments lied to them for a hundred years about literally everything and all sense of civic duty got erased by the cynicism bred by Communism... that's why they render the world in such Machivellian terms...
It's better to try to understand one another, and I certainly do hope that it's in fact the language/cultural barrier that gives us westerners a hard time understanding the Russian viewpoint. Anyway, cheers! (And maybe one day I'll find a Trump supporter that I find intelligible... One can dream, right?)
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-28 18:07:31
November 28 2016 18:06 GMT
#12075
The funny thing is, despite the fact that they are obvious propaganda networks, RT and Sputnik are among the first real efforts of the Russian government to do some genuine cultural outreach. Without them, I imagine that the depth of people's understanding about Russia is "that communist country on the other side of the globe." My anecdotal experience corroborates that view of the perception of Russia in the US.

"Read RT but take it with a grain of salt" is so much more productive than "let me explain something to you that you have no means to find out for yourself." It really is.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-28 18:15:37
November 28 2016 18:13 GMT
#12076
On November 29 2016 00:06 Incognoto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2016 23:37 TheDwf wrote:Ecological/energy transition would be a good start, France is too slow on renewnable energies.


It's called nuclear power. France is already very efficient with its energy, it's quite cheap and CO2 emissions are low. Renewable energy is hardly of primordial importance in France, it's basically the same idiot shit as re-building roads which are already fine. So there goes that.


Show nested quote +
On November 28 2016 23:37 TheDwf wrote:It's not necessarily about spending more, even if it's needed in some domains, but about spending better (e. g. the 41 billions of euros of the CICE = wasted money) and above all getting more tax revenues! Between fiscal evasion, tax niches and big companies paying almost nothing (much less, relatively, than small ones!), the State is lacking dozens of billions of revenues each year. Not to mention the fiscal shield for the ultra-wealthy; there's definitely a problem when people who have 30 billions of patrimony pay zero fortune tax…


Lol. This is entirely different from Keynesian policies. That's just holding the super rich (people and companies) accountable. Which is, I entirely agree, absolutely necessary. Naturally what doesn't help is when ministers are responsible for tax evasions themselves. Unfortunately all French politicians are rotten to the core. Would be nice to drain that swamp. At very least, we're agreeing here. However this isn't state intervention in the economy, this is supposed to be normal.


Show nested quote +
On November 28 2016 23:37 TheDwf wrote:If you're liberal and/or accept the coercitive framework of the European treaties, yes. That's why Hollande's original sin/betrayal is his signature of the TSCG without renegotiating it, as he had promised. Just like Mitterrand, he chose the European Union over social transformation. The result is a TINA policy.


So we should tell Europe to fuck off? Leave Europe? Furthermore, do you think that it is responsible, or a good idea, to gamble on short term economic stimulation, with the losing bet being bankruptcy (like Greece... which didn't go bankrupt while applying austerity measures). Also that debt will have to be repaid in the future. For all your hate on the banksters, you sure are keen to have them tighten their grip on our country.

Show nested quote +
Aka trickle down economy… The thing which never worked and is responsible for most of the debt so far. In the fairy land of trickle down economy, lowering taxes → more profits → higher investment → more jobs → more salaries → more activity. In practice, the richest simply pocket the money and gamble it in the financial casino (or lend it back to the State, but with interests!!), while lower and middle classes are forced to pay more taxes to compensate (and/or debt keeps slowly rising, as it did the past decades).


I'm not really talking about trickle down economy, I'm talking about economic liberties. Economic liberty is normal, sane and healthy. The "rich" pay more taxes than the lower classes, except for of course they don't, they're hiding their money. I'm not talking about the super rich, I'm talking about normal people starting small companies and growing them. The sub-prime crisis an example of the super rich fucking things up but their economic liberty isn't what I'm talking about, they are above the law either way. Banksters (I like the term) are being held more accountable today than before, which is fine.

Show nested quote +
The private sector is also responsible for huge disasters like the subprime crisis. How is that a sign of competence? Unregulated capitalism always leads to catastrophes, the system is structurally imbalanced and concentrates wealth/power in fewer and fewer hands while the common good is lost (the private sector cares mostly about profit, the rest be damned). See the environmental crisis and rising inequalities following globalization. The 2 richest French possess as much as the 20 millions poorest ones. The 62 richest people in the world possess as much as the 3.5 billions poorest ones. That's absolutely insane and totally useless.


That's, again, an issue with the richest being above the rules. They aren't playing the same game as you and I. Apple and co are above the law and write off legal fees as normal operation expenses. THAT is an issue, I completely agree. The issue here is not capitalism, the issue is that the richest people and corporations are above the law. If they respected the law then you can have capitalism and it will be the best thing in the world. But they don't and that is your problem. Some guy who invests in his start-up because he has a good idea is not a filthy piece of shit who is looking to exploit slave labor. Doctors and dentists are not hell-spawn. Working and making money is not a sin.

Show nested quote +
Companies hire when they anticipate activity and profit, that's all. If you massacre solvent demand through wage austerity, they won't hire because there will be no (higher) demand to begin with… There's no link between unemployment and worker rights. Even the OECD, which doesn't exactly fight for international communist revolution, found a negative correlation between the two for France (i. e. the more you deregulate… the more unemployment you produce). The labour market has been deregulated for decades in France; CDDs, stages and intérim dramatically increased and unemployement has never been higher. Direct proof of the ineffectiveness of the liberal approach.


Again, it's not the liberal approach which is the problem here. Liberalism doesn't mean that some people shouldn't follow the law. Companies do hire when they anticipate activity and profit and that is perfectly normal. However what you don't seem to understand is that salaries isn't the problem with companies. Companies have no problems paying big money to people if they're worth the money. However companies do not have the flexibility anymore to lay off people during economic trouble. So they don't hire. That is why CDDs, internships and interim work is so high. Companies don't want to take the risk of hiring people who will end up being liabilities. Nor should they. The first function of a company is to make money, not to employ people.

I do agree that companies should be held accountable to their employees, to an extent. However in France I think it goes too far. You should be able to lay someone off easily without having to pay them a year's worth of salary or going through lengthy administrative procedures. Nor do I think that you should be able to fire someone on a whim and leave them without a job in a day. I think there's a middle ground somewhere to be found.


you shouldn't conflate service industries (dentists and doctors) with "small businesses" selling products. theres a hard cap on income for professionals who sell services. you only have so much time and no one is going to pay you thousands per hour in a market saturated with professionals. its nearly impossible as a professional to make millions per year, for example, unless you own the business and are siphoning money off of new labor blood like law firms do. so when you say, "its not a sin to make money" and run a business, well, it's not so clear. it's impossible to become obscenely wealthy without exploitation and that's just a material fact.

you know if you want to look at "true capitalism," or whatever your utopian liberal dream is here with private industry coming up with new products and services, that analysis was done 150 years ago. Marx's Capital is an analytical description of that perfect, steady state economy that some liberals claim to want. so the starting point should be there, not some vague claims about unleashing human creativity to get real competition. or if you are xmz and casually intimate that cyclic business cycles are not a natural law, at least take schumpeter seriously by providing a real critique. these are not new problems.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
November 28 2016 18:18 GMT
#12077
The central Marxist critique of diminishing profits in industries as labour vanishes is way off though, which is why labour theories of value are largely discarded and it calls the central 'capitalism overturns itself through internal contradictions' logic heavily into question.
Makro
Profile Joined March 2011
France16890 Posts
November 28 2016 18:36 GMT
#12078
On November 29 2016 02:46 Incognoto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2016 02:23 Makro wrote:
On November 29 2016 00:27 Incognoto wrote:
On November 29 2016 00:22 TheDwf wrote:
If Fillon applies his program, the French society will explode anyway.


That's probably for the better to be quite frank.

in what way it would for the better really ?


French society today is unbearable. Everyone hates everyone, people rioting and protesting in streets, unemployment, rise of the extreme-right, Islamophobia, this constant hate of both money and work, as well as individual responsibility and freedom. Companies getting bought by foreigners, factories closing, etc. Fillon is a monster who embraces disgusting values such as work and private investment.

It's funny how much hate I get from fellow French posters in this thread who, for some reason, seem to think that all of France's problems are caused by the fact that the French government didn't buy them ... employment? Pensions? Handouts?

It's ridiculous how much French society is degenerating. French values are poor today. We're at the point where you have people ready to vote for extreme right nutters over Fillon. That's just fucking bonkers. I'm wondering what's more ingrained in French culture: xenophobia or jealousy.

I'm happy to see that someone who isn't the extreme right saying they're ready to kick things into gear. Change is going to happen, for the better or for the worse. Change though, is eventually progress.

i don't think you're hated by some french fellow posters here just because they are in a clear disagreement

the reasons i don't agree with your are quite different than the others, and it's quite simple : france has a specific culture and history of doing things and a certain idea of what the society should be
you can't copy pasta an anglo saxon type of society into france like fillon(or insert whatever names here btw) wants to do and hoping for the best, that's too simplistic and as said before that's not gonna work because you don't take into consideration the society itself

struggle within the nation on a daily basis between lobbies and such will remain and it happens in every country, even the one that you would count as A+ in your book

your post seems like a copy of a generic comment on le figaro, i don't even know where to start actually

i'll just end saying that if you want the country to be in a better shape, try to vote for someone who has some political awareness and a plan, someone that would lead the country above the melee instead of pushing the agenda of their party (such as both candidate we will have in the second round)

sadly today you don't have any type of person like that, someone that would incarnate the State
Matthew 5:10 "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of shitposting, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven".
TL+ Member
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-28 18:38:34
November 28 2016 18:37 GMT
#12079
@nyxisto

what does "as labour vanishes" mean?

the reason that the "central critique" as youve phrased it is not what we see in "actually existing capitalism" is because of the dynamics between state power and private enterprise. monopoly formation, tax avoidance, state subsidies, (de)regulations, legal precedents, etc. all distort markets. people who think that having the state "get out of the way" of private enterprise is the solution to economic malaise are rightly opposed to some of the state's influence on private enterprise, but fail to legitimate or describe the appropriate scope of government, vaguely gesturing towards a laissez-faire economics. my point is that you if you want to take that goal seriously, Marx is the starting point. but even Marx himself knew that that wasn't the whole
description of capital's operation which is embedded in flows of social and cultural materials.

im not sure what that has to do with the labor theory of value


The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18074 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-28 18:38:24
November 28 2016 18:38 GMT
#12080
On November 29 2016 03:13 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2016 00:06 Incognoto wrote:
On November 28 2016 23:37 TheDwf wrote:Ecological/energy transition would be a good start, France is too slow on renewnable energies.


It's called nuclear power. France is already very efficient with its energy, it's quite cheap and CO2 emissions are low. Renewable energy is hardly of primordial importance in France, it's basically the same idiot shit as re-building roads which are already fine. So there goes that.


On November 28 2016 23:37 TheDwf wrote:It's not necessarily about spending more, even if it's needed in some domains, but about spending better (e. g. the 41 billions of euros of the CICE = wasted money) and above all getting more tax revenues! Between fiscal evasion, tax niches and big companies paying almost nothing (much less, relatively, than small ones!), the State is lacking dozens of billions of revenues each year. Not to mention the fiscal shield for the ultra-wealthy; there's definitely a problem when people who have 30 billions of patrimony pay zero fortune tax…


Lol. This is entirely different from Keynesian policies. That's just holding the super rich (people and companies) accountable. Which is, I entirely agree, absolutely necessary. Naturally what doesn't help is when ministers are responsible for tax evasions themselves. Unfortunately all French politicians are rotten to the core. Would be nice to drain that swamp. At very least, we're agreeing here. However this isn't state intervention in the economy, this is supposed to be normal.


On November 28 2016 23:37 TheDwf wrote:If you're liberal and/or accept the coercitive framework of the European treaties, yes. That's why Hollande's original sin/betrayal is his signature of the TSCG without renegotiating it, as he had promised. Just like Mitterrand, he chose the European Union over social transformation. The result is a TINA policy.


So we should tell Europe to fuck off? Leave Europe? Furthermore, do you think that it is responsible, or a good idea, to gamble on short term economic stimulation, with the losing bet being bankruptcy (like Greece... which didn't go bankrupt while applying austerity measures). Also that debt will have to be repaid in the future. For all your hate on the banksters, you sure are keen to have them tighten their grip on our country.

Aka trickle down economy… The thing which never worked and is responsible for most of the debt so far. In the fairy land of trickle down economy, lowering taxes → more profits → higher investment → more jobs → more salaries → more activity. In practice, the richest simply pocket the money and gamble it in the financial casino (or lend it back to the State, but with interests!!), while lower and middle classes are forced to pay more taxes to compensate (and/or debt keeps slowly rising, as it did the past decades).


I'm not really talking about trickle down economy, I'm talking about economic liberties. Economic liberty is normal, sane and healthy. The "rich" pay more taxes than the lower classes, except for of course they don't, they're hiding their money. I'm not talking about the super rich, I'm talking about normal people starting small companies and growing them. The sub-prime crisis an example of the super rich fucking things up but their economic liberty isn't what I'm talking about, they are above the law either way. Banksters (I like the term) are being held more accountable today than before, which is fine.

The private sector is also responsible for huge disasters like the subprime crisis. How is that a sign of competence? Unregulated capitalism always leads to catastrophes, the system is structurally imbalanced and concentrates wealth/power in fewer and fewer hands while the common good is lost (the private sector cares mostly about profit, the rest be damned). See the environmental crisis and rising inequalities following globalization. The 2 richest French possess as much as the 20 millions poorest ones. The 62 richest people in the world possess as much as the 3.5 billions poorest ones. That's absolutely insane and totally useless.


That's, again, an issue with the richest being above the rules. They aren't playing the same game as you and I. Apple and co are above the law and write off legal fees as normal operation expenses. THAT is an issue, I completely agree. The issue here is not capitalism, the issue is that the richest people and corporations are above the law. If they respected the law then you can have capitalism and it will be the best thing in the world. But they don't and that is your problem. Some guy who invests in his start-up because he has a good idea is not a filthy piece of shit who is looking to exploit slave labor. Doctors and dentists are not hell-spawn. Working and making money is not a sin.

Companies hire when they anticipate activity and profit, that's all. If you massacre solvent demand through wage austerity, they won't hire because there will be no (higher) demand to begin with… There's no link between unemployment and worker rights. Even the OECD, which doesn't exactly fight for international communist revolution, found a negative correlation between the two for France (i. e. the more you deregulate… the more unemployment you produce). The labour market has been deregulated for decades in France; CDDs, stages and intérim dramatically increased and unemployement has never been higher. Direct proof of the ineffectiveness of the liberal approach.


Again, it's not the liberal approach which is the problem here. Liberalism doesn't mean that some people shouldn't follow the law. Companies do hire when they anticipate activity and profit and that is perfectly normal. However what you don't seem to understand is that salaries isn't the problem with companies. Companies have no problems paying big money to people if they're worth the money. However companies do not have the flexibility anymore to lay off people during economic trouble. So they don't hire. That is why CDDs, internships and interim work is so high. Companies don't want to take the risk of hiring people who will end up being liabilities. Nor should they. The first function of a company is to make money, not to employ people.

I do agree that companies should be held accountable to their employees, to an extent. However in France I think it goes too far. You should be able to lay someone off easily without having to pay them a year's worth of salary or going through lengthy administrative procedures. Nor do I think that you should be able to fire someone on a whim and leave them without a job in a day. I think there's a middle ground somewhere to be found.


you shouldn't conflate service industries (dentists and doctors) with "small businesses" selling products. theres a hard cap on income for professionals who sell services. you only have so much time and no one is going to pay you thousands per hour in a market saturated with professionals. its nearly impossible as a professional to make millions per year, for example, unless you own the business and are siphoning money off of new labor blood like law firms do. so when you say, "its not a sin to make money" and run a business, well, it's not so clear. it's impossible to become obscenely wealthy without exploitation and that's just a material fact.

you know if you want to look at "true capitalism," or whatever your utopian liberal dream is here with private industry coming up with new products and services, that analysis was done 150 years ago. Marx's Capital is an analytical description of that perfect, steady state economy that some liberals claim to want. so the starting point should be there, not some vague claims about unleashing human creativity to get real competition. or if you are xmz and casually intimate that cyclic business cycles are not a natural law, at least take schumpeter seriously by providing a real critique. these are not new problems.



Well, I don't know where you live, but dentists here charge 50 euros per filling. And drilling out a caries and putting in a filling is about 10 minutes of work and 10 cents (probably) of material. I wish I earned 50 euros every 15 minutes, even discounting overhead that's not a bad salary!
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