European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 589

On November 20 2016 17:58 xM(Z wrote:
i'd split EU based on people(germanic people, romance people, slavic people + minorities) being totally oblivious to the economic realities:
- group germans with nordics(Denmark, Norway and so on);
- France with Spain, Portugal, Italy, Romania, Greece (because of Thracia); (lol, i mean seriously, look at that whole romance lineage being totally fucked now; France maybe not economically but more socially and politically);
- then you'd have the slavs grouped with the russians;
(bulgarians = minorities, go to greeks/vlachs(eastern romance); magyars = minorities, go to germans, slavs, romance; Poland split between germans and slavs; Ukraine dissolved);
- tatars, turkick and other minorities based on local/regional communities.

On November 20 2016 19:52 Dangermousecatdog wrote:

What is this? Is this a joke? This is not how you make a joke.
You just decided to just divide countries up without rhyme or reason. Also where is UK?

On November 20 2016 20:12 WhiteDog wrote:

Because fixed exchange rate between countries with such a high difference in their capacity of production mean they have to reequilibrate by lowering their nominal cost (wage) and since the level of inflation in germany is usually low (due to the rather depressing habit of german to spend nothing and be good protestants) it is really hard (impossible) for a country like Portugal or Greece to actually lower their wage enough to compensate for their lack of economic prowess.
The only somewhat viable solution would be to permit fiscal redistribution in the euro zone (i.e : create a federal state and a federal budget that would catch at least 10 % of the euro zone GDP), but the level of fiscal redistribution necessary is just too important : German would have to carry Portugal and Greece for a while, and even other european countries, to reequilibrate everybody (not politically viable - unless you want AfD in power).

On November 20 2016 19:52 Dangermousecatdog wrote:

What is this? Is this a joke? This is not how you make a joke.
You just decided to just divide countries up without rhyme or reason. Where is UK? Norway isn't part of EU. Countries next to Romania count as minorities or entirely dissolved. Poland split as if invaded as in WW2. Some groups aren't even geographically contingent. What is this fantasy and why are you dividing up countries anyways? What is this bullshit and obsession with lineage?

On November 20 2016 21:24 xM(Z wrote:
countries are concepts, taught languages are concepts(spoken languages/dialects are real), people(their lineage) is real(real = it has implications above and beyond self).
a divide based on people(their history/genetics) would have deep political/social/cultural implications.
you'd have germans living under democracy/federalism, romance people would use republics/socialism and slavs dictatorships because(i would argue) that is what people are historically used to.
in this context, i don't believe in the one size fits all motto that EU is pushing at the moment; sure it may last for a while but eventually it's bound to fall. its been rising and falling since BC times.

On November 20 2016 21:49 Toadesstern wrote:

and in the same way you're trying to make neat little groups like that you're fundamentally against what you yourself are talking about.
You say that one size doesn't just fit all so you go ahead an split up poland because you realize that there might be countries that don't fully belong into one group or the other based on what you consider important. They might have sizeable portions of population that would rather align with one while others would want to align with something else for whatever the reason.

So in that sense I fundamentally disagree with you. Yes one size doesn't just fit all but we've managed to not dissolve modern nations just because West Germany has a somewhat different take on things as East Germany might have. And I can tell you that despite that being the case (close to) noone here would want Germany to split apart again.
I don't really see what makes a normal state any different and immune to this if you truly believe what you just said. Especially if we're considering that this isn't some kind of set-theory and differences of opinion are going to happen in some kind of gradient

On November 20 2016 22:03 xM(Z wrote:
i don't make them, they are that way. the evolution made them that way. i'm merely (re)categorizing them based on objective measurable <metrics>.

On November 20 2016 22:03 xM(Z wrote:
i don't make them, they are that way. the evolution made them that way. i'm merely (re)categorizing them based on objective measurable <metrics>.

On November 20 2016 21:24 xM(Z wrote:
countries are concepts, taught languages are concepts(spoken languages/dialects are real), people(their lineage) is real(real = it has implications above and beyond self).
a divide based on people(their history/genetics) would have deep political/social/cultural implications.
you'd have germans under a democracy/federalism, romance people would use republics/socialism and slavs dictatorships because(i would argue) that is what people are historically used to.
in this context, i don't believe in the one size fits all motto that EU is pushing at the moment; sure it may last for a while but eventually it's bound to fall. its been rising and falling since BC times.

On November 20 2016 22:03 xM(Z wrote:
i don't make them, they are that way. the evolution made them that way. i'm merely (re)categorizing them based on objective measurable <metrics>.

On November 20 2016 22:08 Big J wrote:


If you are so sure about the bullshit your wrote, why would you have to push for that, if it happens anyways? It's the old lie of the extreme right that they are merely doing what happens anyways that you are rehasing, when in fact things happen because people - in this case extremist right-wingers - make them happen.

That is what liberalism and the European Union stand to fight against at their core.

On November 20 2016 22:36 WhiteDog wrote:

Nono I m not talking about inequality of income between people but inequality of production between countries. It's a global drag on the economy.

On November 20 2016 22:12 Toadesstern wrote:

Like I said, I agree that those differences exist. But you DO make them just the same way I'd make groups if I said "nono, the real important thing we should categorize with is hair color".
And you yourself realize that your idea is flawed and can't make a clear cut as each step down you go you still have people feeling both ways no matter what objective you pick unless you want to go down to individual people.
Some people want A while some people want B inside Europe? So you go down to nations and align them by which country would rather want A or B (you make an argument for what's the most important according to you but really what A and B is is completly irrelevant).
Then you realize that you have to split apart Poland because they're divided on that issue.
The same way you'd have to go down to cities and streets. There's always going to be people thinking differently to some degree.

You're just not going to get a clean cut group of people thinking the same. People might even disagree with your decision about what's important to look at in the first place.

Again, if what you said were true we wouldn't have nations because people inside Nation-X disagree from East to West. We wouldn't have cities because people disagree about matters. People make cities and nations nontheless because despite disagreeing on some issues they came to the conclusion that it's for the best.

//Edit: and what was written above me is what I was getting at with "people's opinions on those are not some kind of set-theory clear cut out groups but are going to be some kind of gradient." or whatever I called it. I can even assume your idea that this is based in nature and can't be overcome as correct (which I don't agree with either) and it STILL doesn't make any sense

On November 20 2016 23:26 xM(Z wrote:

yes, the idea is far from flawless(for now, humans lack the knowledge to make it statistically acceptable/relevant; medicine is making headway though) but as far as i'm concerned, i don't care about ones feelings. his physical(biological) well being, sure; it'll be my job to keep him fit and strong . feelings are an emergent and temporary propriety of bio-chemo-electro based triggers and stimuli.

everyone we're talking about here is in Europe; yea, even the russians. if you're talking about your made up EU, well that's your construct, your bauble from which you are arguing; can not help you there.

the rest of your post ... i don't know, the opinions could have some tangential applicability+ Show Spoiler + but where i'm living+ Show Spoiler +, the revelation of X belonging to Y for people would feel like someone battling with asthma for as long as he could remember is all of a sudden cured; ultimately, they'll choose to do it, submit to it.

besides i don't get it: how come people approving/supporting globalization and the free movement of people object to ... people moving freely and globally?.