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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On November 24 2014 06:11 Doublemint wrote: could you add a source for that please? http://www.lemonde.fr/politique/article/2014/11/23/le-front-national-a-emprunte-de-l-argent-a-une-banque-russe_4527889_823448.html | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8703 Posts
why wouldn't they get loans from french banks in the first place? I can see how you can disagree with a party and want to fight them with nail and teeth, but that's very strange. //edit: english source. http://www.france24.com/en/20141123-france-far-right-turns-russian-lender-national-front-marine-le-pen/ maybe the french people could explain that and add their opinion. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On November 24 2014 07:18 Doublemint wrote: calling that subsidies is like... very weird? they took a loan they were not able to get anywhere else. why wouldn't they get loans from french banks in the first place? I can see how you can disagree with a party and want to fight them with nail and teeth, but that's very strange. //edit: english source. http://www.france24.com/en/20141123-france-far-right-turns-russian-lender-national-front-marine-le-pen/ maybe the french people could explain that and add their opinion. Its a subsidy because the loan comes from an obscure Russia bank ostensibly focused on trade between Russia and Czech Republic and Slovakia. The bank lacks offices in France, it lacks bankers capable of assessing FN ability to repay the loan, and the bank is 100% owned by a former head of finance for what used to be a Gazprom subsidiary but now is a 'private' company, Storytransgaz, owned by a close lackey of Putin, Timchenko. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8703 Posts
please don't get me wrong it is fishy indeed, but on the other hand it is a totally understandable move by FN and moscow to reach out to partners willing to deal with them. if FN were able to get a loan in france this would be a non issue. and moscow would be isolated as it should be. this way two problems are creating a new, potentially bigger one. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On November 24 2014 08:16 Doublemint wrote: and that makes it a subsidy? not a contract about a loan? please don't get me wrong it is fishy indeed, but on the other hand it is a totally understandable move by FN and moscow to reach out to partners willing to deal with them. if FN were able to get a loan in france this would be a non issue. and moscow would be isolated as it should be. this way two problems are creating a new, potentially bigger one. Yes, when a loan is made on political and not economic grounds then it is a subsidy. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
http://www.thenation.com/blog/179963/decrying-ukraines-fascists-putin-allying-europes-far-right | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8703 Posts
On November 24 2014 08:20 Sub40APM wrote: Yes, when a loan is made on political and not economic grounds then it is a subsidy. private autonomy is the word here. they can and should make deals with people as long as they don't break the law. in light of the fact that FN is for some reason not able to get loans anywhere else I would dispute the subsidy point. for now at least. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On November 24 2014 08:25 Doublemint wrote: private autonomy is the word here. they can and should make deals with people as long as they don't break the law. in light of the fact that FN is for some reason not able to get loans anywhere else I would dispute the subsidy point. for now at least. Its not private if a close personal friend of Putin does it through an obscure bank. FN didnt just randomly apply for loans to all the banks of the world and this one happened to reply. Putin directed this bank to provide it financing. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
especially the ones relating to soft imperialism, like this is. and even moreso when russia is a culprit, because then i can count on my best buddie sub40 backing me up. however if it's US on the business end he will demand that you produce and post a detailed paper trail in thread, and scream bloody murder while you don't! i could never wrap my head around how someone is able to cope with that kind of cognitive dissonance. rofl, actually it's hillarious. because sub40 was shielding the ultranationalist and neonazi elements of the maidan movement with his big 'ol juicy butt, whose movement was and is receiving funding from US. will he ever go full-circle and ask how these ultranationalists in ukraine got so popular? depends on how buddy, buddy they get with big Vlad. not very likely. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On November 24 2014 09:08 nunez wrote: sounds like a juicy conspiracy, i love those. especially the ones relating to soft imperialism, like this is. and even moreso when russia is a culprit, because then i can count on my best buddie sub40 backing me up. however if it's US on the business end he will demand that you produce and post a detailed paper trail in thread, and scream bloody murder while you don't! i could never wrap my head around how someone is able to cope with that kind of cognitive dissonance. rofl, actually it's hillarious. because sub40 was shielding the ultranationalist and neonazi elements of the maidan movement with his big 'ol juicy butt, whose movement was and is receiving funding from US. will he ever go full-circle and ask how these ultranationalists in ukraine got so popular? depends on how buddy, buddy they get with big Vlad. not very likely. Two elections and the far right received less votes than actual Jewish candidates. Reality is a real drag, not as juicy as an obscure dissertation, a couple of youtubes and nunez-the-ballistics-expert's personal analysis but I guess thanks to the AMERICAN CONSPIRACY facts have an anti-nunez bias. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
btw my super skilled mspaint vector analysis has now bested us intelligence twice, both in kiev and in ghouta. so please, show some respect. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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MattBarry
United States4006 Posts
On November 24 2014 09:08 nunez wrote: sounds like a juicy conspiracy, i love those. especially the ones relating to soft imperialism, like this is. and even moreso when russia is a culprit, because then i can count on my best buddie sub40 backing me up. however if it's US on the business end he will demand that you produce and post a detailed paper trail in thread, and scream bloody murder while you don't! i could never wrap my head around how someone is able to cope with that kind of cognitive dissonance. rofl, actually it's hillarious. because sub40 was shielding the ultranationalist and neonazi elements of the maidan movement with his big 'ol juicy butt, whose movement was and is receiving funding from US. will he ever go full-circle and ask how these ultranationalists in ukraine got so popular? depends on how buddy, buddy they get with big Vlad. not very likely. Why did you format this like a poem. | ||
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zeo
Serbia6336 Posts
About Farage: He is probably the most level headed, visionary politician in the British political scene today. It's just that UKIP needs a lot more people like him, while getting rid of the crazies. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the whole world would feel much safer if Britain had an independent foreign policy. Love him or hate him 95% of the time he is right | ||
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Acertos
France852 Posts
And I'm sure the FN could have easily found some deals in France and Western Europe but because of its friendship with the Kremlin they must have worked out a juicier deal. Like Sub said, the director of the bank is affiliated with Putin, and the FN has multiple influencial members who have a lot of contacts in Russia so it isn't surprising at all. For the comment above: I don't know if you are being sarcastic but you have to understand that voting for nationalist loonies like Farage, Le Pen or Putin is what led and will lead to wars. Farage is the antithesis of being level headed, he is a loud biggot who only knows demagogy ans populism. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10843 Posts
On November 24 2014 04:48 Makro wrote: could you care explaning the situation in Switzerland ? i'm genuinely interested because i can't understand how populist parties can have a place in a country like Switzerland which is extremely rich, with a very low rate of unemployment and where, at least from the outside, the political system is flawless btw keep the discussion guy it's really interesting Its actually simple. First you have to accept that fear isn’t rational. So if you play it long enough, it will feel real. So how did the far right take over a big part of switzerlands voting base (~27-30%)? First you have to know that swiss people in general are very conservative and rather self centered. We weren’t even part of the UNO until the early 90ies… In the 80ies the SVP, the former „farmers“ party (right wing, but mainly just very conservative), got „overtaken“ by an industrial billionaire (not sure, but rich as fuck). Since then, for now over 20 years, they stirr up fear in massive campaigns which had long lasting effects. For over twenty years everything bad that happened was basically blamed on the EU and/or Immigration or our ‘leftist goverment’ (which was actually allways ‘moderate right’) and at the same time they created some sort of ‘american exceptionalism – swiss edition’. Over the years the party swallowed up basically the whole right wing sector and ate up huge amounts of the pro market and christian-conservative parties. Now it is the strongest party in Switzerland (the left, which is among the most leftist parties in Europe, is the second strongest, the moderate parties bled and seem to still bleed). The rise of the SVP is basically the total failure of the more moderate parties at responding properly to their populism and also truely not dealing or even talking about issues that have risen during the 00 years, our immigration numbers are actually and in reality probably too BIG and our public transportation is approaching its limits quickly. At the same time europe just seems to go from crisis to crisis trying hard to look like a horrible monstrosity you don’t want to deal with and you for sure don’t want this innefficient monstrosity telling you how to do stuff. Funnily enough, the SVP managed to „extremise“ their base to an extend, that they now have problems in actually „controlling“ it. So now we have to vote about capping yearly immigration at max. 0.2% per year. Economical suicide, all parties (including the SVP) are against it but well, many people that normally blindly follow the SVP stand behind this initiative and are rightfully puzzled why the SVP suddenly is against it… you reap what you saw. I just hope they crash and burn for what they have done to switzerland. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
Acertos you're not serious : Russia and Putin is "xenophobic, nationalist, ultra conservative and profoundly antiamerican"... Please, let's be serious. Russia is a great country, that the occidentals didn't respected enough after the fall of the USSR, and now that they are just doing their stuff everybody is getting on them like ho no Russia is so bad. How about thinking and not pushing NATO at their borders before ? Stop demonizing others and try to think by yourself, I'm starting to believe you vote socialist party, and it's not a good thing. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8703 Posts
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Hoenicker
243 Posts
On November 24 2014 21:04 Velr wrote: Its actually simple. First you have to accept that fear isn’t rational. So if you play it long enough, it will feel real. So how did the far right take over a big part of switzerlands voting base (~27-30%)? First you have to know that swiss people in general are very conservative and rather self centered. We weren’t even part of the UNO until the early 90ies… In the 80ies the SVP, the former „farmers“ party (right wing, but mainly just very conservative), got „overtaken“ by an industrial billionaire (not sure, but rich as fuck). Since then, for now over 20 years, they stirr up fear in massive campaigns which had long lasting effects. For over twenty years everything bad that happened was basically blamed on the EU and/or Immigration or our ‘leftist goverment’ (which was actually allways ‘moderate right’) and at the same time they created some sort of ‘american exceptionalism – swiss edition’. Over the years the party swallowed up basically the whole right wing sector and ate up huge amounts of the pro market and christian-conservative parties. Now it is the strongest party in Switzerland (the left, which is among the most leftist parties in Europe, is the second strongest, the moderate parties bled and seem to still bleed). The rise of the SVP is basically the total failure of the more moderate parties at responding properly to their populism and also truely not dealing or even talking about issues that have risen during the 00 years, our immigration numbers are actually and in reality probably too BIG and our public transportation is approaching its limits quickly. At the same time europe just seems to go from crisis to crisis trying hard to look like a horrible monstrosity you don’t want to deal with and you for sure don’t want this innefficient monstrosity telling you how to do stuff. Funnily enough, the SVP managed to „extremise“ their base to an extend, that they now have problems in actually „controlling“ it. So now we have to vote about capping yearly immigration at max. 0.2% per year. Economical suicide, all parties (including the SVP) are against it but well, many people that normally blindly follow the SVP stand behind this initiative and are rightfully puzzled why the SVP suddenly is against it… you reap what you saw. I just hope they crash and burn for what they have done to switzerland. Actually this pattern is very common in the richer EU nations too. The same thing has happened in the Netherlands to a T, with Wilders' party polling as the largest at the moment, with elections coming up in March. Running on an agenda of fear and xenophobism, similar to Farage is a recipe for win. Imo a scathing reflection of current educational standards, especially in public schools throughout europe. Populist and Nationalist overtones everywhere, except the one place you may expect them; Germany. Interestingly though I just read a study by Gregory Clark (University of California, Davis) and Neil Cummins (London School of Economics ) who found that in the last 28 generations of British people, the wealthiest 1% of sir names has not changed (indicating that social mobility within British society is a myth). The study started count when the first last names became used and recorded +/- 1140 AD in England. Considering the Brittish attitude to Europe these past years, its a wonder why they are still in the union. I think they should have been kicked out years ago when they refused to adopt the euro. English exceptionalism is stronger than ever, most think they are still an empire tear up the trade deals and let them tow their little island over to the US. IMO. | ||
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Oshuy
Netherlands529 Posts
On November 24 2014 21:18 Doublemint wrote: could someone from france explain why the FN does not get loans for their campaign operations and has to rely on the russians? - which creates a whole new problem in light of the russia/west conflict. I read that banks generally will try to avoid giving any since Sarkozy and a certain kind of misuse of those funds, but how else do they finance themselves and their operations? I assume they get money from the government but that won't cut it for a big party, donations too of course. so does the FN just need an extraordinary amount or is there really something bigger going on? In the French system, each party is paid by the state for its campaign operations up to a certain amount, depending on its score at the given election. This means small parties fight to reach 5% at the first turn, which means they campaigned for free basically, whereas the main parties gamble on getting to second turn to get a second check. FN has been for a number of years a party that could reliably get 5%, meaning they could easily enough get a loan for each campaign, then pay back when reimbursed by state funds. Since the 2002 presidential election, where they got to the second turn, they have a tendancy to see themselves a bit bigger than they are. This means that they spent with the reimbursment of the second turn in mind. Their failure to qualify for second turn in 2007, then again in 2012, got them in the red. Even worse, during the parliament election of 2007 they failed to get 5%, meaning no reimbursment at all. They repaid (at least partly) by begging for donations, but even then their seat was handed over to French banks to repay and they still owe money until today, which puts them on the black list of most French banks. | ||
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