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European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 482

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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
June 12 2016 12:33 GMT
#9621
significant portion of muslims dont accept isis as islam. just go with this and call them a cult
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Paljas
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6926 Posts
June 12 2016 13:00 GMT
#9622
On June 12 2016 17:45 xM(Z wrote:
any, more deutsch -ish details on this?: http://en.abna24.com/service/middle-east-west-asia/archive/2016/06/12/759703/story.html
Show nested quote +
A regional German court has recognised as valid the marriage of a 14-year-old Syrian girl to her 20-year-old cousin, despite the legal age for marriage in Germany being 16. The case represents a landmark ruling, with the Federal Court set to adjudicate on the implications for the country as a whole.
...
Show nested quote +
In what is likely to become a landmark ruling, the Oberlandesgericht Bamberg (Higher Regional Court in Bamberg, Bavaria) has this week decided that the marriage of a 14-year-old girl to her 20-year-old husband must be recognised as the wedding has already taken place, was recognised as legal in their native Syria, and was conducted in accordance with Sunni marriage rites.
...
Show nested quote +
There are no official figures on the number of child bride migrants living in Europe, but the number is thought to be in the hundreds. Although in some cases the girls have been separated from their husbands and placed in child protection facilities, in others, the authorities have been content to let them remain with their husbands for fear of traumatising them.

“Minors seeking asylum are in a difficult situation where they have left their homeland, family and friends, and the partner they have travelled with can be the only person they know and trust in Norway,” said Heidi Vibeke Pedersen, a senior official at the Norwegian Directorate of Immigration.

But charities have countered that line of argument, pointing out the sharp increase in forced marriages in Syria and in concentration camps. According to Die Welt, just 13 per cent of marriages in Syria involved a partner under the age of 18 before the war. Now the figure is around 51 per cent.

Robin Classen of the Criticising Immigration blog has called the verdict a “scandal”, highlighting that the judge “openly and completely uncritically quoted sharia law, applying it directly to this case.

“Therefore ‘only a marriage of a Muslim woman to a non-Muslim is void,’ in the judge’s own words, because Islamic law forbids this.”

Mr. Classen argues that the case is a prime example of Germany importing a foreign culture through mass migration.

“With mass immigration has come not only the sort of terrorism seen in Paris and Brussels and the sexual offences of New Year’s Eve, but also a completely different set of social values ideas,” he says.

Yeah, this source is pretty bad. The court hasn't ruled the marriage valid, but only ruled that the girl can decide herself wheter or not she wants to see her "husband". As an other court before ruled that visitations should be limited by the youth welfare office, the case will likely go to the higher courts.
Any source which quotes someone like Robin Classen is shit.
TL+ Member
hfglgg
Profile Joined December 2012
Germany5372 Posts
June 12 2016 17:25 GMT
#9623
yeah if i remember it correctly the case was about whether or not her "husband" can be her legal guardian. but since the marriage was legal in syria, there are no signs of abuse and he is only 20, the court gave its ok but also asking for a decision of a higher instance.
AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
June 12 2016 18:40 GMT
#9624
Ruling is still fucking embarassing though. Foundation of law in Germany are german laws which prohibit child marriages. What someone does in Syria should have no bearing here. Judge should have told them that the marriage is null and void now, if they want to marry they should wait until the bride reached the german legal age to do so. Country is a madhouse anyway so fuck it.
AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
June 12 2016 18:48 GMT
#9625
On June 12 2016 19:45 SoSexy wrote:
I'm not shocked. After Cologne, it's clear that Germany bowed down. I would have been way more surprised by 'Judge declares that marriage invalid'.

+ Show Spoiler +
4chan would simply say: Germany is cucked


Yeah this.
forsooth
Profile Joined February 2011
United States3648 Posts
June 12 2016 19:11 GMT
#9626
On June 10 2016 18:59 opisska wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2016 18:06 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
On June 10 2016 01:11 opisska wrote:
On June 10 2016 00:58 Ghostcom wrote:
I'm not prescribing what people are supposed to think. And this discussion is going to go nowhere before you accept that. I'm prescribing what expectations people should have when they apply for citizenship. Being granted citizenship in a country is a privilege - which is something that seems to have been forgotten. The immigrants need the host country to a far greater degree than the other way around.

The approach that more tolerance and freedom will prevail is idealistic but at the same time incredibly naive and trusting it to succeed flies in the face of all current available data - the past 20 years of immigration attempts in the EU have had less than stellar success. I do not pretend to have a magic bullet to fix it, but the reasonable approach sure as hell can't be more of the same.


But then, what are the practical policies you would implement to these ends - short of just building a wall and letting the rest of the world pay for it? The abstract concepts you say about citizenships sound nice, but what does it mean in practice? How is that different from the current situation? What steps do you suggests in determining whether the immigrants have accepted the values you want them to accept? Opinions are worth nothing if they can't be translated into day-to-day reality.

As long as the refugees enter Europe, there are exactly three things you can do:
- accept them and eventually grant them full rights, equal to the people who already live here
- let them in, but let them be second-class citizens for extended periods
- remove them forcibly from the area

I my opinion, option 2 is seen as practical only by people who have zero understanding of human nature and would lead to a disaster no matter what. Option 3 is partly immoral (when concerning real refugees of war, of which there are millions), partly impractical (because there is nowhere to relocate the people to, or because they will simply come back). Do you see any other option? I don't believe we will be ever able to close the borders and any attempt to do so only increases the impetus on people trafficking, making the whole thing an absurd competition in not dying in the process, which I don't really see as helpful.

Do you see any other option? If not, then what is the point of even discussing how much immigrants are a problem, if we are stuck with them anyway? Or specific details of citizenship requirements, if there is no better course of action than to grant the citizenship to most of the people that are coming? It really is the time to stop talking in bloated words and start talking actual actions.

Clearly the best option is do not grant any welfare benefits to non citizens and grant them only to citizens who have resided for 5 years or more in that country.Why do you think these migrants are gravitating to Sweden in such large numbers?

Very basic fact that i feel the far left may slowly be realising : you cannot have both open borders and a generous welfare system.One maximum or the system will eventually collapse.


One hand, I obviously agree that money and resources do not come out of thin air, so there needs to be some balance. On the other hand, I am not so sure whether outright excluding a group of people from welfare system is a very good idea. Together with their worse employability (people will obviously prefer locals for most things, if they can), it inevitable leads towards establishing an impoverished social layer, which will increase crime, lead to creation of ghettos and generally hinder any effort in integrating the people into our culture. All of that will then incur a lot of additional expenses on the rest of the society anyway, making the initial savings at least dubious.

If competition for work is high and resources are strained, there's no reason to be letting more people immigrate in the first place. Even less so if they have few marketable skills.
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
June 12 2016 19:26 GMT
#9627
On June 13 2016 04:11 forsooth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2016 18:59 opisska wrote:
On June 10 2016 18:06 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
On June 10 2016 01:11 opisska wrote:
On June 10 2016 00:58 Ghostcom wrote:
I'm not prescribing what people are supposed to think. And this discussion is going to go nowhere before you accept that. I'm prescribing what expectations people should have when they apply for citizenship. Being granted citizenship in a country is a privilege - which is something that seems to have been forgotten. The immigrants need the host country to a far greater degree than the other way around.

The approach that more tolerance and freedom will prevail is idealistic but at the same time incredibly naive and trusting it to succeed flies in the face of all current available data - the past 20 years of immigration attempts in the EU have had less than stellar success. I do not pretend to have a magic bullet to fix it, but the reasonable approach sure as hell can't be more of the same.


But then, what are the practical policies you would implement to these ends - short of just building a wall and letting the rest of the world pay for it? The abstract concepts you say about citizenships sound nice, but what does it mean in practice? How is that different from the current situation? What steps do you suggests in determining whether the immigrants have accepted the values you want them to accept? Opinions are worth nothing if they can't be translated into day-to-day reality.

As long as the refugees enter Europe, there are exactly three things you can do:
- accept them and eventually grant them full rights, equal to the people who already live here
- let them in, but let them be second-class citizens for extended periods
- remove them forcibly from the area

I my opinion, option 2 is seen as practical only by people who have zero understanding of human nature and would lead to a disaster no matter what. Option 3 is partly immoral (when concerning real refugees of war, of which there are millions), partly impractical (because there is nowhere to relocate the people to, or because they will simply come back). Do you see any other option? I don't believe we will be ever able to close the borders and any attempt to do so only increases the impetus on people trafficking, making the whole thing an absurd competition in not dying in the process, which I don't really see as helpful.

Do you see any other option? If not, then what is the point of even discussing how much immigrants are a problem, if we are stuck with them anyway? Or specific details of citizenship requirements, if there is no better course of action than to grant the citizenship to most of the people that are coming? It really is the time to stop talking in bloated words and start talking actual actions.

Clearly the best option is do not grant any welfare benefits to non citizens and grant them only to citizens who have resided for 5 years or more in that country.Why do you think these migrants are gravitating to Sweden in such large numbers?

Very basic fact that i feel the far left may slowly be realising : you cannot have both open borders and a generous welfare system.One maximum or the system will eventually collapse.


One hand, I obviously agree that money and resources do not come out of thin air, so there needs to be some balance. On the other hand, I am not so sure whether outright excluding a group of people from welfare system is a very good idea. Together with their worse employability (people will obviously prefer locals for most things, if they can), it inevitable leads towards establishing an impoverished social layer, which will increase crime, lead to creation of ghettos and generally hinder any effort in integrating the people into our culture. All of that will then incur a lot of additional expenses on the rest of the society anyway, making the initial savings at least dubious.

If competition for work is high and resources are strained, there's no reason to be letting more people immigrate in the first place. Even less so if they have few marketable skills.


I am still eagerly waiting for someone to tell me a practical way to not "let them immigrate". To make it easier, let me rehash the problems such a proposal needs to sort out:
- EU outer borders are huge and to a large extent maritime, but with short distance to foreign lands. That makes them effectively impossible to patrol.
- even if you could patrol all the maritime borders, international law and general human sense of decency tells you that you should not drown the people on spot
- once you have the people on your soil, or on your boat, there aren't many countries willing to take them from you
- even if you do succeed in it, many are likely to come again
- all together, all the attempts to close the border only increase the profits of the smugglers and cause more deaths among the migrants, the efficiency in deterring people from coming is dubious. I also really dislike the "lottery with life" aspect of the whole thing, when you get rewarded for surviving the sail, but that may be just me.
- did I ever mention how huge the border is?
- renouncing Schengen and forcing the border states to deal with it is shortsighted, if not outright stupid, as the relevant border states are mostly the poorer ones, making it a bigger problem; it's also quite selfish (and solves nothing if you happen to live in one of those).

I have yet to see a holder of a strict anti-immigration policy to answer this simple question: but how are you gonna implement it in reality? That's really when people always start to chicken out from discussion.
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
maartendq
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Belgium3115 Posts
June 12 2016 19:50 GMT
#9628
On June 13 2016 04:26 opisska wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 13 2016 04:11 forsooth wrote:
On June 10 2016 18:59 opisska wrote:
On June 10 2016 18:06 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
On June 10 2016 01:11 opisska wrote:
On June 10 2016 00:58 Ghostcom wrote:
I'm not prescribing what people are supposed to think. And this discussion is going to go nowhere before you accept that. I'm prescribing what expectations people should have when they apply for citizenship. Being granted citizenship in a country is a privilege - which is something that seems to have been forgotten. The immigrants need the host country to a far greater degree than the other way around.

The approach that more tolerance and freedom will prevail is idealistic but at the same time incredibly naive and trusting it to succeed flies in the face of all current available data - the past 20 years of immigration attempts in the EU have had less than stellar success. I do not pretend to have a magic bullet to fix it, but the reasonable approach sure as hell can't be more of the same.


But then, what are the practical policies you would implement to these ends - short of just building a wall and letting the rest of the world pay for it? The abstract concepts you say about citizenships sound nice, but what does it mean in practice? How is that different from the current situation? What steps do you suggests in determining whether the immigrants have accepted the values you want them to accept? Opinions are worth nothing if they can't be translated into day-to-day reality.

As long as the refugees enter Europe, there are exactly three things you can do:
- accept them and eventually grant them full rights, equal to the people who already live here
- let them in, but let them be second-class citizens for extended periods
- remove them forcibly from the area

I my opinion, option 2 is seen as practical only by people who have zero understanding of human nature and would lead to a disaster no matter what. Option 3 is partly immoral (when concerning real refugees of war, of which there are millions), partly impractical (because there is nowhere to relocate the people to, or because they will simply come back). Do you see any other option? I don't believe we will be ever able to close the borders and any attempt to do so only increases the impetus on people trafficking, making the whole thing an absurd competition in not dying in the process, which I don't really see as helpful.

Do you see any other option? If not, then what is the point of even discussing how much immigrants are a problem, if we are stuck with them anyway? Or specific details of citizenship requirements, if there is no better course of action than to grant the citizenship to most of the people that are coming? It really is the time to stop talking in bloated words and start talking actual actions.

Clearly the best option is do not grant any welfare benefits to non citizens and grant them only to citizens who have resided for 5 years or more in that country.Why do you think these migrants are gravitating to Sweden in such large numbers?

Very basic fact that i feel the far left may slowly be realising : you cannot have both open borders and a generous welfare system.One maximum or the system will eventually collapse.


One hand, I obviously agree that money and resources do not come out of thin air, so there needs to be some balance. On the other hand, I am not so sure whether outright excluding a group of people from welfare system is a very good idea. Together with their worse employability (people will obviously prefer locals for most things, if they can), it inevitable leads towards establishing an impoverished social layer, which will increase crime, lead to creation of ghettos and generally hinder any effort in integrating the people into our culture. All of that will then incur a lot of additional expenses on the rest of the society anyway, making the initial savings at least dubious.

If competition for work is high and resources are strained, there's no reason to be letting more people immigrate in the first place. Even less so if they have few marketable skills.


I am still eagerly waiting for someone to tell me a practical way to not "let them immigrate". To make it easier, let me rehash the problems such a proposal needs to sort out:
- EU outer borders are huge and to a large extent maritime, but with short distance to foreign lands. That makes them effectively impossible to patrol.
- even if you could patrol all the maritime borders, international law and general human sense of decency tells you that you should not drown the people on spot
- once you have the people on your soil, or on your boat, there aren't many countries willing to take them from you
- even if you do succeed in it, many are likely to come again
- all together, all the attempts to close the border only increase the profits of the smugglers and cause more deaths among the migrants, the efficiency in deterring people from coming is dubious. I also really dislike the "lottery with life" aspect of the whole thing, when you get rewarded for surviving the sail, but that may be just me.
- did I ever mention how huge the border is?
- renouncing Schengen and forcing the border states to deal with it is shortsighted, if not outright stupid, as the relevant border states are mostly the poorer ones, making it a bigger problem; it's also quite selfish (and solves nothing if you happen to live in one of those).

I have yet to see a holder of a strict anti-immigration policy to answer this simple question: but how are you gonna implement it in reality? That's really when people always start to chicken out from discussion.

One method that will work, but that many deem inhumane, is to tow back every boat with migrants to North Africa/Turkey instead of Italy or Greece. Right now the migrants are basically making a gamble: they hope to be found by the coast guards or some NGO before their boat capsizes.
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9229 Posts
June 12 2016 19:57 GMT
#9629
Theoretically we could also pay some peaceful sub-Saharan country to accept our illegals just like Australia pays some Pacific countries to accept their illegals. So the question is not if it's possible, but if it's the right thing to do.
You're now breathing manually
forsooth
Profile Joined February 2011
United States3648 Posts
June 12 2016 20:01 GMT
#9630
If you're talking about illegal/irregular migration, that's a different issue altogether. I'm talking about controls on legal immigration.

That being said, Australia already solved the boat problem by making it clear that illegal immigrants will never be allowed residence in Australia. No country has any responsibility to care for any people but its own (refugees are another matter, but people already safe in northwestern Turkey trying to get a higher standard of living by paying criminals to smuggle them to Europe are hardly refugees) and when it starts prioritizing the wants of foreign nationals over the best interests of its own people, it is no longer a government worth keeping.
DickMcFanny
Profile Blog Joined September 2015
Ireland1076 Posts
June 13 2016 07:59 GMT
#9631
Right, what kind of message are you sending when you don't prosecute them for breaking the laws of their host country?

Like, what justification do immigrants have to say "Well, Turkey, Greece, and all the other states that don't have a welfare system aren't really suitable for us, so we go on to Sweden, Germany and France?" They're willingly and knowingly breaking EU law. If we don't respect and enforce our own law, of course they think we're weak and Sharia Law is the only law they have to respect.
| (• ◡•)|╯ ╰(❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
June 13 2016 09:21 GMT
#9632
The Australia solution works, because it's a problem smaller by orders of magnitude, I have found numbers around 400-500 a month, is that correct? I think that with such numbers, we could deal to everyone's satisfaction without any clever strategies.

Can you really tow a boat into other nation's sovereign waters? How many international laws does that break at once? What would be the peaceful sub-Saharan country exactly? What makes you think the people in question will be inclined to stay there? Can you name any successful historical examples when we have heavily subsidized a culturally heavily different country for our own needs and it worked out just fine? How exactly would you "prosecute" them? Is creating large detention facilities something we will benefit from? Or building additional prisons?

It's really not a question of what we want to do, but a question of long-term sustainable feasibility.
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
DickMcFanny
Profile Blog Joined September 2015
Ireland1076 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-13 09:46:37
June 13 2016 09:45 GMT
#9633
Well, you have to deter immigration somehow.

I think under international law, it's legitimate to secure your borders.

Nobody wants to consider the awful possibility of shooting a the ships, but if you think about it, you will deter crossing via the Mediterranean, which in the short term saves a lot of refugees from drowning and in the long term saves a lot of Europeans from being killed and raped.

€: I hate that I'm developing this 'us vs. them' mentality, but it more and more looks like we've extended a hand in help and we're getting repaid with rape, murder and theft.
| (• ◡•)|╯ ╰(❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6237 Posts
June 13 2016 09:47 GMT
#9634
On June 13 2016 16:59 DickMcFanny wrote:
Right, what kind of message are you sending when you don't prosecute them for breaking the laws of their host country?

Like, what justification do immigrants have to say "Well, Turkey, Greece, and all the other states that don't have a welfare system aren't really suitable for us, so we go on to Sweden, Germany and France?" They're willingly and knowingly breaking EU law. If we don't respect and enforce our own law, of course they think we're weak and Sharia Law is the only law they have to respect.

The problem is that they basically get no rights in those countries. Cant work, no education etc. There are numerous examples of huge refugee camps existing for years which basically turned into cities.
Ideally they would get the right to work,education etc. and the west would take off pressure via legal immigration and monetary support for good policy regarding refugees.

Why they go to Germany and Sweden instead of other countries is pretty simple as well. They let everyone come no strings attached at the start. The refugee numbers in France which you mention are actually pretty small. Merkel basically went full retard. Should have made a deal with Turkey to take refugees in the legal way a lot earlier instead of condoning refugees using boats and taking the illegal route
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21854 Posts
June 13 2016 09:49 GMT
#9635
On June 13 2016 18:45 DickMcFanny wrote:
Well, you have to deter immigration somehow.

I think under international law, it's legitimate to secure your borders.

Nobody wants to consider the awful possibility of shooting a the ships, but if you think about it, you will deter crossing via the Mediterranean, which in the short term saves a lot of refugees from drowning and in the long term saves a lot of Europeans from being killed and raped.

€: I hate that I'm developing this 'us vs. them' mentality, but it more and more looks like we've extended a hand in help and we're getting repaid with rape, murder and theft.

did you seriously just say we should shoot at rubber dingies full of refugees?

Just think for 2 seconds about what you just said.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
DickMcFanny
Profile Blog Joined September 2015
Ireland1076 Posts
June 13 2016 10:00 GMT
#9636
On June 13 2016 18:49 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 13 2016 18:45 DickMcFanny wrote:
Well, you have to deter immigration somehow.

I think under international law, it's legitimate to secure your borders.

Nobody wants to consider the awful possibility of shooting a the ships, but if you think about it, you will deter crossing via the Mediterranean, which in the short term saves a lot of refugees from drowning and in the long term saves a lot of Europeans from being killed and raped.

€: I hate that I'm developing this 'us vs. them' mentality, but it more and more looks like we've extended a hand in help and we're getting repaid with rape, murder and theft.

did you seriously just say we should shoot at rubber dingies full of refugees?

Just think for 2 seconds about what you just said.


I realise how stupid and extreme that sounds. But I think you can save a lot of lives with a couple of warning shots, not literally gunning down refugees in boats.

How many people drown every month in the Mediterranean Sea? If you send a clear signal saying their efforts to cross are futile, they might be deterred from taking the journey.
| (• ◡•)|╯ ╰(❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21854 Posts
June 13 2016 10:13 GMT
#9637
On June 13 2016 19:00 DickMcFanny wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 13 2016 18:49 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 13 2016 18:45 DickMcFanny wrote:
Well, you have to deter immigration somehow.

I think under international law, it's legitimate to secure your borders.

Nobody wants to consider the awful possibility of shooting a the ships, but if you think about it, you will deter crossing via the Mediterranean, which in the short term saves a lot of refugees from drowning and in the long term saves a lot of Europeans from being killed and raped.

€: I hate that I'm developing this 'us vs. them' mentality, but it more and more looks like we've extended a hand in help and we're getting repaid with rape, murder and theft.

did you seriously just say we should shoot at rubber dingies full of refugees?

Just think for 2 seconds about what you just said.


I realise how stupid and extreme that sounds. But I think you can save a lot of lives with a couple of warning shots, not literally gunning down refugees in boats.

How many people drown every month in the Mediterranean Sea? If you send a clear signal saying their efforts to cross are futile, they might be deterred from taking the journey.

People who are desperate enough to try and cross the Mediterranean in a rubber life-raft are not going to be deterred by warning shots.
You don't think bodies of those who drown wash up on the other shore as well?
The deaths don't seem to deter them now.
Gunning down refugees makes us no better then the animals they are fleeing. Is it that easy to get us to throw aside our morality?

We really are no different or better then ISIS.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9229 Posts
June 13 2016 10:19 GMT
#9638
On June 13 2016 18:21 opisska wrote:
The Australia solution works, because it's a problem smaller by orders of magnitude, I have found numbers around 400-500 a month, is that correct? I think that with such numbers, we could deal to everyone's satisfaction without any clever strategies.

Can you really tow a boat into other nation's sovereign waters? How many international laws does that break at once? What would be the peaceful sub-Saharan country exactly? What makes you think the people in question will be inclined to stay there? Can you name any successful historical examples when we have heavily subsidized a culturally heavily different country for our own needs and it worked out just fine? How exactly would you "prosecute" them? Is creating large detention facilities something we will benefit from? Or building additional prisons?

It's really not a question of what we want to do, but a question of long-term sustainable feasibility.


I'm not saying it's the right thing to do (in fact I think the Australian solution is a bit too harsh) but it's an option that should be considered. I don't have a strong opinion on this matter so I'm not going to defend the Australian model, I'll just explain how I think it works.

The Australia solution works, because it's a problem smaller by orders of magnitude


The problem is smaller partially because migrants know that Europe will take them in and Australia will not.

Can you really tow a boat into other nation's sovereign waters? How many international laws does that break at once?


If Australians can, why can't we?

What would be the peaceful sub-Saharan country exactly?


I don't know, any country that's politically stable and willing to take in migrants and refugees in exchange for money would do.

What makes you think the people in question will be inclined to stay there? How exactly would you "prosecute" them? Is creating large detention facilities something we will benefit from? Or building additional prisons?


You get their fingerprints and fly them to the facility in that African country and provide them with everything they need. If they don't like the conditions they can just leave, it's not a prison but a refugee facility. If they somehow get back to Europe you deport them again, this time faster because you have their fingerprints. If the war ends you fly the refugees back to their countries. I guess you could also have a second asylum procedure for refugees who spent some time in your African facility and behaved nicely.
You're now breathing manually
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
June 13 2016 11:09 GMT
#9639
higher competition is not an excuse to limit immigration. start competing.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
xM(Z
Profile Joined November 2006
Romania5281 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-13 14:00:30
June 13 2016 13:59 GMT
#9640
but that would mean living with 10 more in a 2-3 bedroom apartment and working illegally for years on end. my forefathers did that and also payed taxes so that i would, people here would, have a better life/a chance for a better life.

basically your argument follows nothing and goes nowhere.
for years i was a slave and build this awesome place people want to immigrate to and when i'm to enjoy it, you tell me to fuck off 'cause you have cheaper slaves.
And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.
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