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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On February 25 2022 17:51 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Marine Le Pen keeps defending Putin. What a sickening clown. Obviously her party being directly financed by Moscow probably means her hands are tied but Jesus, what a pond scum.
Do you have a video? Not disputing the claim obviously, but the right wing in Sweden is constantly being portrayed as being closer to Russia and Putin than they actually are, citations completely out of context etc.
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Kharkiv was just recently shelled by GRAD (partially)
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On February 25 2022 16:36 AssyrianKing wrote:
I personally think a war is not warranted whatsoever. The era of the Imperial Ambition of Monarchies and the Cold War is over! But alas some countries, and I blame both sides for this, keep pushing each other needlessly. The saddest part of all is that 2 Orthodox Christian Slavic countries are on the brink of war! Both countries are basically blood brothers whether you like to admit it or not.
But honestly I think the blame is with NATO... Geo-Politics is primarily the most important reason for this conflict
Russia and Ukraine are neighboring countries. The EU and NATO want Ukraine to join its organizations. Russia has again and again said that such an action would be a Red Line as it would mean NATO weapons on Russia's border. Western world kept poking the Russian Bear with a stick and big surprise it has reacted...
If Russia takes ukraine then he is having weapons at the frontier still. I guess he will not be happy about it ? Putin already warned others about intrusion.But imo he is ready to keep expanding.You just dont go to a full war to get your economy criple like he is doing.
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Netherlands6273 Posts
On February 25 2022 17:48 Oukka wrote:
I'm not well versed on this, but I saw some discussion that the SWIFT ban isn't quite as significant as it's made to be. There are already sanctions in place against processing Russian transactions, SWIFT is just the system that communicates those. I.e. messages about deposits and withdrawals might move, but the actual deposits or withdrawals aren't being completed so money isn't moving either way.
If someone is more knowledgeable about international banking this would be interesting to hear about.
I don't see how it's not significant. You're cutting the russian financial system from the international payments system. If it wasn't very significant we wouldn't see the amount of pusback we're seeing right now from cutting them off.
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Exactly, my friend working in financial security says that cuting off from SWIFT would be first SERIOUS sanction placed on Russia.
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On February 25 2022 17:39 Silvanel wrote:
Germany is dependant on Russia and Italy is selling Russians industrial machines and equipment. I think it is too late right now to do anything about that. I can only hope that german population will now see what is shown to them in plain sight and demand change.
Making this all about Germany must be the magic trick of the century for the British :p.
Like I am pissed of as anyone by the Germans shutting down nuclear power stations to replace them with Russian gas imports due to some weird quasi-religious obsession.
But also give them some credit, the sanctions Germany cobbled together after the annexation of Crimea were both effective (look at Russian GDP/capita over time since then) and extremely costly to Germany. Meanwhile the British and the Americans continue to profit massively from Russian capital without actually putting anything that matters to them on the table, and they successful keep people from thinking about it by screaming "Look at the Germans" really loudly.
Seizing Russian money in New York and London, and the US/UK/EU together enforcing sanctions on Switzerland until they agree to also seize Russian money in Zurich would be the obvious next step in my opinion. But that would actually cost the British something and I don't think they'll do it. I would be delighted to be proven wrong though.
Longer term my perhaps extreme opinion is that the correct response at this point is to turn Russia into North Korea.
Complete isolation and full on secondary sanctions on anyone that trades with them or touches their money. It would mean complete economic disaster (for Europe much more so than the US) and we would all be poor for a decade+. But I dont think there is a choice. If Putin is on a mission to re-form the empire it won't stop here and the only way to stop him is to smash the Russian economy and industrial/technological base to smithereens. It would hurt so so much but compared to the wars of the past it would be nothing. Not to sound too melodramatic but if the cost of freedom is to live with sugar rations and no new electronics for a few years then it's worth it.
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On February 25 2022 18:57 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2022 17:39 Silvanel wrote:
Germany is dependant on Russia and Italy is selling Russians industrial machines and equipment. I think it is too late right now to do anything about that. I can only hope that german population will now see what is shown to them in plain sight and demand change. Making this all about Germany must be the magic trick of the century for the British :p. Like I am pissed of as anyone by the Germans shutting down nuclear power stations to replace them with Russian gas imports due to some weird quasi-religious obsession. But also give them some credit, the sanctions Germany cobbled together after the annexation of Crimea were both effective (look at Russian GDP/capita over time since then) and extremely costly to Germany. Meanwhile the British and the Americans continue to profit massively from Russian capital without actually putting anything that matters to them on the table, and they successful keep people from thinking about it by screaming "Look at the Germans" really loudly. Seizing Russian money in New York and London, and the US/UK/EU together enforcing sanctions on Switzerland until they agree to also seize Russian money in Zurich would be the obvious next step in my opinion. But that would actually cost the British something and I don't think they'll do it. I would be delighted to be proven wrong though. Longer term my perhaps extreme opinion is that the correct response at this point is to turn Russia into North Korea. Complete isolation and full on secondary sanctions on anyone that trades with them or touches their money. It would mean complete economic disaster (for Europe much more so than the US) and we would all be poor for a decade+. But I dont think there is a choice. If Putin is on a mission to re-form the empire it won't stop here and the only way to stop him is to smash the Russian economy and industrial/technological base to smithereens. It would hurt so so much but compared to the wars of the past it would be nothing. Not to sound too melodramatic but if the cost of freedom is to live with sugar rations and no new electronics for a few years then it's worth it.
I agree about the UK's need to stop taking Russian money. I even pointed out in the US thread that we should be seizing all the property owned by Russian oligarchs in London, and there's ALOT of it, but we are a country run by used car salesmen with fancy degrees so that won't happen.
On the other hand it isn't us making this all about Germany, but the German politicians telling Putin the only thing he has to fear are more sanctions by saving some for later that are doing that.
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On February 25 2022 18:37 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2022 16:36 AssyrianKing wrote:
I personally think a war is not warranted whatsoever. The era of the Imperial Ambition of Monarchies and the Cold War is over! But alas some countries, and I blame both sides for this, keep pushing each other needlessly. The saddest part of all is that 2 Orthodox Christian Slavic countries are on the brink of war! Both countries are basically blood brothers whether you like to admit it or not.
But honestly I think the blame is with NATO... Geo-Politics is primarily the most important reason for this conflict
Russia and Ukraine are neighboring countries. The EU and NATO want Ukraine to join its organizations. Russia has again and again said that such an action would be a Red Line as it would mean NATO weapons on Russia's border. Western world kept poking the Russian Bear with a stick and big surprise it has reacted...
If Russia takes ukraine then he is having weapons at the frontier still. I guess he will not be happy about it ? Putin already warned others about intrusion.But imo he is ready to keep expanding.You just dont go to a full war to get your economy criple like he is doing.
The Russian mentality is completely different. You have to remember that Russia is not a western country. All Western Europe thinks about now is individual Quality of Life. However, Russia and/or atleast Putin still has that greater calling that drives them to this type of behaviour
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Let's not forget the Russians risking their lives and freedom to publicly protest against the invasion.
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On February 25 2022 19:24 Jockmcplop wrote:
Let's not forget the Russians risking their lives and freedom to publicly protest against the invasion.
Very good post. The courage it takes to protest there has my top respect.
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On February 25 2022 18:57 KlaCkoN wrote:Not to sound too melodramatic but if the cost of freedom is to live with sugar rations and no new electronics for a few years then it's worth it.
That is perhaps the most disappointing thing about this situation for me. Just how unwilling the West is to compromise on their own comforts to punish a naked aggressor on Europe's border and prevent further conflict. Because absolutely nothing done so far will deter Putin from continuing on this course.
Their probably laughing in the Kremlin about how cheap of an international price they are paying for Ukraine.
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On February 25 2022 16:36 AssyrianKing wrote:
I personally think a war is not warranted whatsoever. The era of the Imperial Ambition of Monarchies and the Cold War is over! But alas some countries, and I blame both sides for this, keep pushing each other needlessly. The saddest part of all is that 2 Orthodox Christian Slavic countries are on the brink of war! Both countries are basically blood brothers whether you like to admit it or not.
You may think that this sounds moderate and prudent but it is nothing but senseless drivel. Just because you have countless examples of sketchy military conflicts with all kinds of nebulous rebels / ideologists / freedom fighters with close to no affiliation to the local population apparently spawning straight from the void, armed to the teeth with weapons from every corner of the world that they obviously didn't just happen to assemble in their local forest, does not mean that every military conflict falls in this category. Sometimes, it is evident who the aggressors are and painfully obvious how bullshit their excuses are - doesn't matter if it is the US feeling threatened by imaginary WMDs in Iraq or Russia wanting to end a fictional genocide and denazify a country with a Jewish head of state.
But honestly I think the blame is with NATO... Geo-Politics is primarily the most important reason for this conflict
Russia and Ukraine are neighboring countries. The EU and NATO want Ukraine to join its organizations. Russia has again and again said that such an action would be a Red Line as it would mean NATO weapons on Russia's border. Western world kept poking the Russian Bear with a stick and big surprise it has reacted...
This may have been a valid excuse in 1950 but three quarters of a century and thousands upon thousands of nuclear warheads later in a globalized, highly interconnected world, this is nothing but Russian propaganda to use for their imperialistic ambitions. Fact of the matter is that a bit of a land border to an "enemy" has not much significance nowadays, when modern battlefields are often digital and any subversive elements have a broad choice of international travel options (not to mention over 50000 km of mostly unpopulated land and water border in Russia's case) to enter a country. On top of that, it is outright laughable to believe that the country with the largest nuclear arsenal in the world would have any reason to be threatened by any amount of military equipment even if it's at its border. In any hypothetical scenario an attack on Russia ends in the world being turned into a barren wasteland no later than the first enemy forces reaching Moscow and probably much earlier.
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On February 25 2022 19:33 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2022 18:57 KlaCkoN wrote:Not to sound too melodramatic but if the cost of freedom is to live with sugar rations and no new electronics for a few years then it's worth it.
That is perhaps the most disappointing thing about this situation for me. Just how unwilling the West is to compromise on their own comforts to punish a naked aggressor on Europe's border and prevent further conflict. Because absolutely nothing done so far will deter Putin from continuing on this course. Their probably laughing in the Kremlin about how cheap of an international price they are paying for Ukraine.
Yup.
It's spineless and pathetic.
If Putin's not going to be cut off for launching a full on war of aggression against a sovereign democracy, then what will he be cut off for?
I can just hear the conversation a few months from now.
Sure he cremated a few million Ukrainians but heaven forbid we can't sell his Oligarchs diamonds! That would be the real warcrime.
EDIT: Removed a phrase that was perhaps a bit much.
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Why the Western countries still do not consider this act as a war crime?
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On February 25 2022 19:13 AssyrianKing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2022 18:37 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On February 25 2022 16:36 AssyrianKing wrote:
I personally think a war is not warranted whatsoever. The era of the Imperial Ambition of Monarchies and the Cold War is over! But alas some countries, and I blame both sides for this, keep pushing each other needlessly. The saddest part of all is that 2 Orthodox Christian Slavic countries are on the brink of war! Both countries are basically blood brothers whether you like to admit it or not.
But honestly I think the blame is with NATO... Geo-Politics is primarily the most important reason for this conflict
Russia and Ukraine are neighboring countries. The EU and NATO want Ukraine to join its organizations. Russia has again and again said that such an action would be a Red Line as it would mean NATO weapons on Russia's border. Western world kept poking the Russian Bear with a stick and big surprise it has reacted...
If Russia takes ukraine then he is having weapons at the frontier still. I guess he will not be happy about it ? Putin already warned others about intrusion.But imo he is ready to keep expanding.You just dont go to a full war to get your economy criple like he is doing. The Russian mentality is completely different. You have to remember that Russia is not a western country. All Western Europe thinks about now is individual Quality of Life. However, Russia and/or atleast Putin still has that greater calling that drives them to this type of behaviour
The greater calling of going to war, dying or killing other human beings to satiate the ambition of one individual wannabe emperor?
All possible sanctions should be used now. It is sad and infuriating if my country stands in the way of that even though I do not know the details of what the SWIFT thing actually means. But this does not automatically mean that British or US people have any moral highground here regarding the willingness to sacrifice in order to put a stop to Putin...
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On February 25 2022 20:34 Dav1oN wrote:
Why the Western countries still do not consider this act as a war crime? Because then they have to do something and they certainly don't want to do that. Germany is completely dependant on Russian gas and they have no problem sacrificing Ukraine to keep it.
The sad truth is that Ukraine is entirely on its own.
I wish with all my heart it wasn't but that's what it is.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On February 25 2022 10:33 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2022 08:59 Mohdoo wrote:
So now that it looks like no one is going to help Ukraine, that means it would have been better to just never join NATO right? Was there any situation where they didn't get invaded? I could imagine a situation where Ukraine basically bent the knee but kept their government. Not disarming themselves. NATO or not, has little to do with this. Ukraine an Russia relationship has been like this for centuries, giving up their nuclear arsenal and hoping the west would hold their own part of the deal was the real mistake.
It wasn't their nuclear arsenal, the launch codes were in Moscow, which was the biggest issue. After a time they would probably get control over the arsenal, but in the meantime they may have been deleted from the map.
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Finnish YLE (public broadcasting company) reports that a Romanian ship has been hit by fire from Russian warships. Second vessel from NATO countries to be fired upon after a Turkish ship was hit by a missile yesterday.
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Hoping its just an accident.
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On February 25 2022 19:33 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2022 18:57 KlaCkoN wrote:Not to sound too melodramatic but if the cost of freedom is to live with sugar rations and no new electronics for a few years then it's worth it.
That is perhaps the most disappointing thing about this situation for me. Just how unwilling the West is to compromise on their own comforts to punish a naked aggressor on Europe's border and prevent further conflict. Because absolutely nothing done so far will deter Putin from continuing on this course. Their probably laughing in the Kremlin about how cheap of an international price they are paying for Ukraine.
Between sanction exemptions for the Russian energy sector and Western leaders being seemingly more concerned about rising energy costs for their own nations, I'm ashamed of how fat, lazy, and complacent we've got. Few of us want to endure any hardship to defend a democratic ally facing overthrow from a regional bully. Many of our grandparents and great-grandparents were rationing and showed immense resolve against a major European power led by a tyrant dominating other nations. Meanwhile, we're rolling over the moment we're inconvenienced and demonstrated that we'll let Putin take Ukraine as long as he doesn't touch anything else. Despite talk of a unified front, they can't even agree on banning Russia from SWIFT.
Western leaders look more scared about domestic approval ratings and telling voters that gas will cost more. That's also an indictment on us. And it's not to say that those don't matter, especially with people already facing inflationary pressure and COVID, but as far as I can tell, the West told Putin that gobbling up a democracy comes fairly cheap.
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EPT
