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On July 18 2020 07:57 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2020 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 18 2020 07:47 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2020 07:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
Personally I'm far more concerned about the US government spying on people like me than I am China, but I can understand why Europeans would be more concerned by China. I’m more concerned at what people (often ignorantly) volunteer in terms of personal information to tech firms in general. People are shockingly blasé about this. As for China spying I’m not OK with that but we’re still at a cultural impasse where it’s an economic power but it’s yet to really punch through culturally. It’s influence is still relatively limited and discreet, now. It’s going to prove extremely problematic down the line where Western migration to China is more common or Chinese companies acquire more Western companies. Everyone does it to some extent but the scope of what the Chinese deem off limits to hold or discuss is so far beyond what even the US never mind of the rest of the world do. An argument can be made that the US has done more damage to the rest of the world in the 21st century than China has, one Id probably subscribe to. The more pertinent worry for me is would you want the norms of China to have the influence and power that the US currently has. Not the Hong Kong capitalist type that have people living in glorified hamster cages, but the communism, yeah. Well I’d be more ok if China was actually Communist rather than what it is.
I think it takes a pretty comprehensive understanding of communism and life in China for a westerner to argue whether they are engaged in a transformation into a communist state or not. Ushering in the collapse of communism's staunchest enemy certainly has to be part of that. Despite Castro's unprecedented successes in Cuba, it's pretty clear the US won't allow a communist country to thrive even if it means unilateral sanctions harming citizens and condemned by the rest of the world (and dozens of assassination plots).
To act as if China could become communist without addressing the most wealthy country on the planet with 10x+ the military spending of the next countries combined and that's repeatedly gone to war against communism (and assassinated/overthrown their leaders) doesn't clear a bar of common sense imo.
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China is definitely everything nazi Germany was if Hitler wasn't making explicit speeches about hating jews and just wanted to kill them in private. Its a wildly corrupt combination of state-owned industries, partially state-owned industries working as proxies, and no real accountability at any level of government that is controlled through one party that decides every other position in government.
Theres really nothing communist or socialist about the country anymore. They just keep the fiction running to stay in power.
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Northern Ireland23958 Posts
On July 18 2020 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2020 07:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2020 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 18 2020 07:47 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2020 07:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
Personally I'm far more concerned about the US government spying on people like me than I am China, but I can understand why Europeans would be more concerned by China. I’m more concerned at what people (often ignorantly) volunteer in terms of personal information to tech firms in general. People are shockingly blasé about this. As for China spying I’m not OK with that but we’re still at a cultural impasse where it’s an economic power but it’s yet to really punch through culturally. It’s influence is still relatively limited and discreet, now. It’s going to prove extremely problematic down the line where Western migration to China is more common or Chinese companies acquire more Western companies. Everyone does it to some extent but the scope of what the Chinese deem off limits to hold or discuss is so far beyond what even the US never mind of the rest of the world do. An argument can be made that the US has done more damage to the rest of the world in the 21st century than China has, one Id probably subscribe to. The more pertinent worry for me is would you want the norms of China to have the influence and power that the US currently has. Not the Hong Kong capitalist type that have people living in glorified hamster cages, but the communism, yeah. Well I’d be more ok if China was actually Communist rather than what it is. I think it takes a pretty comprehensive understanding of communism and life in China for a westerner to argue whether they are engaged in a transformation into a communist state or not. Ushering in the collapse of communism's staunchest enemy certainly has to be part of that. Despite Castro's unprecedented successes in Cuba, it's pretty clear the US won't allow a communist country to thrive even if it means unilateral sanctions harming citizens and condemned by the rest of the world (and dozens of assassination plots). To act as if China could become communist without addressing the most wealthy country on the planet with 10x+ the military spending of the next countries combined and that's repeatedly gone to war against communism (and assassinated/overthrown their leaders) doesn't clear a bar of common sense imo.
What’s stopping them though? To at least adopting some form of genuine socialism. Or even anything approaching it.
The Chinese masses by and large aren’t enfranchised in any real sense in the companies they work for. Plus dissent is stomped down on pretty hard. They’re just working serfs like you or I.
In central and South America the US stamped down hard on anything approaching socialism, over and over again.
With China, especially now. Not really practical or possible to do that. China could implement it internally but they’re not doing so, I don’t think this is one where the US can be blamed really.
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On July 18 2020 04:33 Nouar wrote:
Still, these kind of sanctions when there is no PROOF that Huawei hardware is rigged is over-the-top. The USA just threatened sanctions on TSMC (Taiwanese company) if they were to provide processors to Huawei.
Now, if there was proof, I'd argue differently. For now it just seems like a commercial war to push the US of A's own equipment to me.
Okay, this isn't the position I expected from you here.
We know that the CCP has an unprecedented level of control over its citizens and its companies. Xi has instituted a clear and strong shift in his foreign and domestic policy toward suppression and projection of power. The chinese state is aggressively expanding its footprint: physical, digital and cultural, often in blatant defiance of international law. It is pushing disinformation and suppressing speech critical of it in every domain it has access to. There is a well-documented record of chinese cyber-attacks all around the globe, and these have accelerated dramatically in recent years. Do you disagree with any of this?
Acro said it fairly clearly; the only option left to most nations in the world is to choose who they would prefer to be spied on by. For all of Trump's.... Trumpness, any society built on liberal democracy will reluctantly select the US. By a third Trump term in a US that's gone full neofascist, that choice may be harder and both options worse, but there is still some hope that that timeline will be averted.
I've had the feeling for a while that a large part of Europe is still in denial about either the CCP's ambitions or their ability to execute them. Here in their backyard, I feel we are more aware of the dragon we are sleeping next to. You are military, afaik. You are generally pretty pragmatic. If you are blase about this, what is the average euro thinking?
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On July 18 2020 08:22 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2020 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 18 2020 07:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2020 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 18 2020 07:47 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2020 07:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
Personally I'm far more concerned about the US government spying on people like me than I am China, but I can understand why Europeans would be more concerned by China. I’m more concerned at what people (often ignorantly) volunteer in terms of personal information to tech firms in general. People are shockingly blasé about this. As for China spying I’m not OK with that but we’re still at a cultural impasse where it’s an economic power but it’s yet to really punch through culturally. It’s influence is still relatively limited and discreet, now. It’s going to prove extremely problematic down the line where Western migration to China is more common or Chinese companies acquire more Western companies. Everyone does it to some extent but the scope of what the Chinese deem off limits to hold or discuss is so far beyond what even the US never mind of the rest of the world do. An argument can be made that the US has done more damage to the rest of the world in the 21st century than China has, one Id probably subscribe to. The more pertinent worry for me is would you want the norms of China to have the influence and power that the US currently has. Not the Hong Kong capitalist type that have people living in glorified hamster cages, but the communism, yeah. Well I’d be more ok if China was actually Communist rather than what it is. I think it takes a pretty comprehensive understanding of communism and life in China for a westerner to argue whether they are engaged in a transformation into a communist state or not. Ushering in the collapse of communism's staunchest enemy certainly has to be part of that. Despite Castro's unprecedented successes in Cuba, it's pretty clear the US won't allow a communist country to thrive even if it means unilateral sanctions harming citizens and condemned by the rest of the world (and dozens of assassination plots). To act as if China could become communist without addressing the most wealthy country on the planet with 10x+ the military spending of the next countries combined and that's repeatedly gone to war against communism (and assassinated/overthrown their leaders) doesn't clear a bar of common sense imo. What’s stopping them though? To at least adopting some form of genuine socialism. Or even anything approaching it. The Chinese masses by and large aren’t enfranchised in any real sense in the companies they work for. Plus dissent is stomped down on pretty hard. They’re just working serfs like you or I. In central and South America the US stamped down hard on anything approaching socialism, over and over again. With China, especially now. Not really practical or possible to do that. China could implement it internally but they’re not doing so, I don’t think this is one where the US can be blamed really.
I honestly don't think most westerners have any idea what it is like to live in China as a Chinese person (that isn't capitalist). Or that non-communists have much of a clue about the theory of transformation from capitalism to communism. Or the transformations that have taken place over the last decades economically or socially. Or how/why capitalists maintain influence particularly in Hong Kong, or why the protesters there were so pro US/Trump.
That said I stand by my sentiment and I'll leave it there.
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Northern Ireland23958 Posts
On July 18 2020 08:42 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2020 08:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2020 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 18 2020 07:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2020 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 18 2020 07:47 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2020 07:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
Personally I'm far more concerned about the US government spying on people like me than I am China, but I can understand why Europeans would be more concerned by China. I’m more concerned at what people (often ignorantly) volunteer in terms of personal information to tech firms in general. People are shockingly blasé about this. As for China spying I’m not OK with that but we’re still at a cultural impasse where it’s an economic power but it’s yet to really punch through culturally. It’s influence is still relatively limited and discreet, now. It’s going to prove extremely problematic down the line where Western migration to China is more common or Chinese companies acquire more Western companies. Everyone does it to some extent but the scope of what the Chinese deem off limits to hold or discuss is so far beyond what even the US never mind of the rest of the world do. An argument can be made that the US has done more damage to the rest of the world in the 21st century than China has, one Id probably subscribe to. The more pertinent worry for me is would you want the norms of China to have the influence and power that the US currently has. Not the Hong Kong capitalist type that have people living in glorified hamster cages, but the communism, yeah. Well I’d be more ok if China was actually Communist rather than what it is. I think it takes a pretty comprehensive understanding of communism and life in China for a westerner to argue whether they are engaged in a transformation into a communist state or not. Ushering in the collapse of communism's staunchest enemy certainly has to be part of that. Despite Castro's unprecedented successes in Cuba, it's pretty clear the US won't allow a communist country to thrive even if it means unilateral sanctions harming citizens and condemned by the rest of the world (and dozens of assassination plots). To act as if China could become communist without addressing the most wealthy country on the planet with 10x+ the military spending of the next countries combined and that's repeatedly gone to war against communism (and assassinated/overthrown their leaders) doesn't clear a bar of common sense imo. What’s stopping them though? To at least adopting some form of genuine socialism. Or even anything approaching it. The Chinese masses by and large aren’t enfranchised in any real sense in the companies they work for. Plus dissent is stomped down on pretty hard. They’re just working serfs like you or I. In central and South America the US stamped down hard on anything approaching socialism, over and over again. With China, especially now. Not really practical or possible to do that. China could implement it internally but they’re not doing so, I don’t think this is one where the US can be blamed really. I honestly don't think most westerners have any idea what it is like to live in China as a Chinese person (that isn't capitalist). Or that non-communists have much of a clue about the theory of transformation from capitalism to communism. Or the transformations that have taken place over the last decades economically or socially. Or how/why capitalists maintain influence particularly in Hong Kong, or why the protesters there were so pro US/Trump. That said I stand by my sentiment and I'll leave it there.
What’s to know? It’s a totalitarian regime that doesn’t tolerate dissent that if anything is doubling down on pursuing capitalism.
If I thought there were some teething problems in a transition that’s something else, there doesn’t appear to be any attempt to transition. The Chinese are being trampled under capitalism like anyone else, but they’ve got a state apparatus that doesn’t tolerate dissent.
Protestors in HK aren’t pro Trump, they’re pro anybody who’s on their ostensible side.
Like it or not the treaty to cede Hong Kong from the British to China had certain guarantees in terms on Hong King’s autonomy. Limits that China seems to like pushing.
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On July 18 2020 09:13 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2020 08:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 18 2020 08:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2020 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 18 2020 07:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2020 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 18 2020 07:47 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2020 07:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
Personally I'm far more concerned about the US government spying on people like me than I am China, but I can understand why Europeans would be more concerned by China. I’m more concerned at what people (often ignorantly) volunteer in terms of personal information to tech firms in general. People are shockingly blasé about this. As for China spying I’m not OK with that but we’re still at a cultural impasse where it’s an economic power but it’s yet to really punch through culturally. It’s influence is still relatively limited and discreet, now. It’s going to prove extremely problematic down the line where Western migration to China is more common or Chinese companies acquire more Western companies. Everyone does it to some extent but the scope of what the Chinese deem off limits to hold or discuss is so far beyond what even the US never mind of the rest of the world do. An argument can be made that the US has done more damage to the rest of the world in the 21st century than China has, one Id probably subscribe to. The more pertinent worry for me is would you want the norms of China to have the influence and power that the US currently has. Not the Hong Kong capitalist type that have people living in glorified hamster cages, but the communism, yeah. Well I’d be more ok if China was actually Communist rather than what it is. I think it takes a pretty comprehensive understanding of communism and life in China for a westerner to argue whether they are engaged in a transformation into a communist state or not. Ushering in the collapse of communism's staunchest enemy certainly has to be part of that. Despite Castro's unprecedented successes in Cuba, it's pretty clear the US won't allow a communist country to thrive even if it means unilateral sanctions harming citizens and condemned by the rest of the world (and dozens of assassination plots). To act as if China could become communist without addressing the most wealthy country on the planet with 10x+ the military spending of the next countries combined and that's repeatedly gone to war against communism (and assassinated/overthrown their leaders) doesn't clear a bar of common sense imo. What’s stopping them though? To at least adopting some form of genuine socialism. Or even anything approaching it. The Chinese masses by and large aren’t enfranchised in any real sense in the companies they work for. Plus dissent is stomped down on pretty hard. They’re just working serfs like you or I. In central and South America the US stamped down hard on anything approaching socialism, over and over again. With China, especially now. Not really practical or possible to do that. China could implement it internally but they’re not doing so, I don’t think this is one where the US can be blamed really. I honestly don't think most westerners have any idea what it is like to live in China as a Chinese person (that isn't capitalist). Or that non-communists have much of a clue about the theory of transformation from capitalism to communism. Or the transformations that have taken place over the last decades economically or socially. Or how/why capitalists maintain influence particularly in Hong Kong, or why the protesters there were so pro US/Trump. That said I stand by my sentiment and I'll leave it there. What’s to know? + Show Spoiler +It’s a totalitarian regime that doesn’t tolerate dissent that if anything is doubling down on pursuing capitalism.
If I thought there were some teething problems in a transition that’s something else, there doesn’t appear to be any attempt to transition. The Chinese are being trampled under capitalism like anyone else, but they’ve got a state apparatus that doesn’t tolerate dissent.
Protestors in HK aren’t pro Trump, they’re pro anybody who’s on their ostensible side.
Like it or not the treaty to cede Hong Kong from the British to China had certain guarantees in terms on Hong King’s autonomy. Limits that China seems to like pushing.
I guess I'd add that the same sentiment has been expressed to me as a Black person in the US regarding a host of circumstances from both domestic and foreign parties. I don't know why you think you have a thorough understanding of China's government or the life experiences of impoverished Chinese people through the rise of Mao until today. I do know that in my personal experience those that insisted they knew enough about the circumstances of people like me were categorically wrong and there's a massive uprising ongoing in my country because of that proud and persistent ignorance.
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Northern Ireland23958 Posts
On July 18 2020 09:29 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2020 09:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2020 08:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 18 2020 08:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2020 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 18 2020 07:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2020 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 18 2020 07:47 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2020 07:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
Personally I'm far more concerned about the US government spying on people like me than I am China, but I can understand why Europeans would be more concerned by China. I’m more concerned at what people (often ignorantly) volunteer in terms of personal information to tech firms in general. People are shockingly blasé about this. As for China spying I’m not OK with that but we’re still at a cultural impasse where it’s an economic power but it’s yet to really punch through culturally. It’s influence is still relatively limited and discreet, now. It’s going to prove extremely problematic down the line where Western migration to China is more common or Chinese companies acquire more Western companies. Everyone does it to some extent but the scope of what the Chinese deem off limits to hold or discuss is so far beyond what even the US never mind of the rest of the world do. An argument can be made that the US has done more damage to the rest of the world in the 21st century than China has, one Id probably subscribe to. The more pertinent worry for me is would you want the norms of China to have the influence and power that the US currently has. Not the Hong Kong capitalist type that have people living in glorified hamster cages, but the communism, yeah. Well I’d be more ok if China was actually Communist rather than what it is. I think it takes a pretty comprehensive understanding of communism and life in China for a westerner to argue whether they are engaged in a transformation into a communist state or not. Ushering in the collapse of communism's staunchest enemy certainly has to be part of that. Despite Castro's unprecedented successes in Cuba, it's pretty clear the US won't allow a communist country to thrive even if it means unilateral sanctions harming citizens and condemned by the rest of the world (and dozens of assassination plots). To act as if China could become communist without addressing the most wealthy country on the planet with 10x+ the military spending of the next countries combined and that's repeatedly gone to war against communism (and assassinated/overthrown their leaders) doesn't clear a bar of common sense imo. What’s stopping them though? To at least adopting some form of genuine socialism. Or even anything approaching it. The Chinese masses by and large aren’t enfranchised in any real sense in the companies they work for. Plus dissent is stomped down on pretty hard. They’re just working serfs like you or I. In central and South America the US stamped down hard on anything approaching socialism, over and over again. With China, especially now. Not really practical or possible to do that. China could implement it internally but they’re not doing so, I don’t think this is one where the US can be blamed really. I honestly don't think most westerners have any idea what it is like to live in China as a Chinese person (that isn't capitalist). Or that non-communists have much of a clue about the theory of transformation from capitalism to communism. Or the transformations that have taken place over the last decades economically or socially. Or how/why capitalists maintain influence particularly in Hong Kong, or why the protesters there were so pro US/Trump. That said I stand by my sentiment and I'll leave it there. What’s to know? + Show Spoiler +It’s a totalitarian regime that doesn’t tolerate dissent that if anything is doubling down on pursuing capitalism.
If I thought there were some teething problems in a transition that’s something else, there doesn’t appear to be any attempt to transition. The Chinese are being trampled under capitalism like anyone else, but they’ve got a state apparatus that doesn’t tolerate dissent.
Protestors in HK aren’t pro Trump, they’re pro anybody who’s on their ostensible side.
Like it or not the treaty to cede Hong Kong from the British to China had certain guarantees in terms on Hong King’s autonomy. Limits that China seems to like pushing. I guess I'd add that the same sentiment has been expressed to me as a Black person in the US regarding a host of circumstances from both domestic and foreign parties. I don't know why you think you have a thorough understanding of China's government or the life experiences of impoverished Chinese people through the rise of Mao until today. I do know that in my personal experience those that insisted they knew enough about the circumstances of people like me were categorically wrong and there's a massive uprising ongoing in my country because of that proud and persistent ignorance.
Chinese people are less impoverished yes, do they have stakes in the companies they work for? Are the workers owners of capital? Or are they employees for companies with less labour standards than we enjoy with a ruling party that has dictatorial power?
Is it state capitalism? Well it absolutely is. That’s how things are functioning now. And not just that as an economic system, there’s a rather less tolerant approach to dissent in general and especially on certain topics.
Is it a transitory phase towards socialism/communism well no, if anything they’re doubling down on that dualism.
Your particular experience in the States can still be 100% valid, it doesn’t mean that China should be absolved or criticism in this regard.
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On July 18 2020 09:39 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2020 09:29 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 18 2020 09:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2020 08:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 18 2020 08:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2020 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 18 2020 07:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2020 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 18 2020 07:47 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2020 07:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
Personally I'm far more concerned about the US government spying on people like me than I am China, but I can understand why Europeans would be more concerned by China. I’m more concerned at what people (often ignorantly) volunteer in terms of personal information to tech firms in general. People are shockingly blasé about this. As for China spying I’m not OK with that but we’re still at a cultural impasse where it’s an economic power but it’s yet to really punch through culturally. It’s influence is still relatively limited and discreet, now. It’s going to prove extremely problematic down the line where Western migration to China is more common or Chinese companies acquire more Western companies. Everyone does it to some extent but the scope of what the Chinese deem off limits to hold or discuss is so far beyond what even the US never mind of the rest of the world do. An argument can be made that the US has done more damage to the rest of the world in the 21st century than China has, one Id probably subscribe to. The more pertinent worry for me is would you want the norms of China to have the influence and power that the US currently has. Not the Hong Kong capitalist type that have people living in glorified hamster cages, but the communism, yeah. Well I’d be more ok if China was actually Communist rather than what it is. I think it takes a pretty comprehensive understanding of communism and life in China for a westerner to argue whether they are engaged in a transformation into a communist state or not. Ushering in the collapse of communism's staunchest enemy certainly has to be part of that. Despite Castro's unprecedented successes in Cuba, it's pretty clear the US won't allow a communist country to thrive even if it means unilateral sanctions harming citizens and condemned by the rest of the world (and dozens of assassination plots). To act as if China could become communist without addressing the most wealthy country on the planet with 10x+ the military spending of the next countries combined and that's repeatedly gone to war against communism (and assassinated/overthrown their leaders) doesn't clear a bar of common sense imo. What’s stopping them though? To at least adopting some form of genuine socialism. Or even anything approaching it. The Chinese masses by and large aren’t enfranchised in any real sense in the companies they work for. Plus dissent is stomped down on pretty hard. They’re just working serfs like you or I. In central and South America the US stamped down hard on anything approaching socialism, over and over again. With China, especially now. Not really practical or possible to do that. China could implement it internally but they’re not doing so, I don’t think this is one where the US can be blamed really. I honestly don't think most westerners have any idea what it is like to live in China as a Chinese person (that isn't capitalist). Or that non-communists have much of a clue about the theory of transformation from capitalism to communism. Or the transformations that have taken place over the last decades economically or socially. Or how/why capitalists maintain influence particularly in Hong Kong, or why the protesters there were so pro US/Trump. That said I stand by my sentiment and I'll leave it there. What’s to know? + Show Spoiler +It’s a totalitarian regime that doesn’t tolerate dissent that if anything is doubling down on pursuing capitalism.
If I thought there were some teething problems in a transition that’s something else, there doesn’t appear to be any attempt to transition. The Chinese are being trampled under capitalism like anyone else, but they’ve got a state apparatus that doesn’t tolerate dissent.
Protestors in HK aren’t pro Trump, they’re pro anybody who’s on their ostensible side.
Like it or not the treaty to cede Hong Kong from the British to China had certain guarantees in terms on Hong King’s autonomy. Limits that China seems to like pushing. I guess I'd add that the same sentiment has been expressed to me as a Black person in the US regarding a host of circumstances from both domestic and foreign parties. I don't know why you think you have a thorough understanding of China's government or the life experiences of impoverished Chinese people through the rise of Mao until today. I do know that in my personal experience those that insisted they knew enough about the circumstances of people like me were categorically wrong and there's a massive uprising ongoing in my country because of that proud and persistent ignorance. + Show Spoiler +Chinese people are less impoverished yes, do they have stakes in the companies they work for? Are the workers owners of capital? Or are they employees for companies with less labour standards than we enjoy with a ruling party that has dictatorial power?
Is it state capitalism? Well it absolutely is. That’s how things are functioning now. And not just that as an economic system, there’s a rather less tolerant approach to dissent in general and especially on certain topics.
Is it a transitory phase towards socialism/communism well no, if anything they’re doubling down on that dualism . Your particular experience in the States can still be 100% valid, it doesn’t mean that China should be absolved or criticism in this regard.
To clarify, I'm not absolving China of criticism, I'm just making the point that many of us know US/EU politics a lot better than Chinese politics and had no comprehension of Trump and his supporters before they won. It's likely the people that "know China is bad for xyz reasons" have even less of a grasp of Chinese politics than they did/do US politics.
That's not personal fyi, I'd include myself in that (though I did see Trump's success coming before most).
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On July 18 2020 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2020 07:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2020 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 18 2020 07:47 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2020 07:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
Personally I'm far more concerned about the US government spying on people like me than I am China, but I can understand why Europeans would be more concerned by China. I’m more concerned at what people (often ignorantly) volunteer in terms of personal information to tech firms in general. People are shockingly blasé about this. As for China spying I’m not OK with that but we’re still at a cultural impasse where it’s an economic power but it’s yet to really punch through culturally. It’s influence is still relatively limited and discreet, now. It’s going to prove extremely problematic down the line where Western migration to China is more common or Chinese companies acquire more Western companies. Everyone does it to some extent but the scope of what the Chinese deem off limits to hold or discuss is so far beyond what even the US never mind of the rest of the world do. An argument can be made that the US has done more damage to the rest of the world in the 21st century than China has, one Id probably subscribe to. The more pertinent worry for me is would you want the norms of China to have the influence and power that the US currently has. Not the Hong Kong capitalist type that have people living in glorified hamster cages, but the communism, yeah. Well I’d be more ok if China was actually Communist rather than what it is. I think it takes a pretty comprehensive understanding of communism and life in China for a westerner to argue whether they are engaged in a transformation into a communist state or not. Ushering in the collapse of communism's staunchest enemy certainly has to be part of that. Despite Castro's unprecedented successes in Cuba, it's pretty clear the US won't allow a communist country to thrive even if it means unilateral sanctions harming citizens and condemned by the rest of the world (and dozens of assassination plots). To act as if China could become communist without addressing the most wealthy country on the planet with 10x+ the military spending of the next countries combined and that's repeatedly gone to war against communism (and assassinated/overthrown their leaders) doesn't clear a bar of common sense imo.
Not that US interventions in Cuba and decades long blockade can be excused (they can't) but Castro's Cuba has been a complete and utter failure, and that has little to do with the United States. It's been a dirt poor dictatorship where the bureaucracy controls literally everything, where information is so controlled that there is a black market of usb keys with newspapers and tv shows and where voicing a dissent opinion leads you straight to jail. The education and health system are - or rather were, when the country was carried by the soviet union - really good, but that really doesn't compensate for the awfulness of the whole system (I mean, education and health were also great in soviet union.)
There is a reason cubans have been fleeing the country to the US for decades, and no american citizen has been fleeing the US for Cuba, ever.
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On July 18 2020 08:19 Sermokala wrote:
China is definitely everything nazi Germany was if Hitler wasn't making explicit speeches about hating jews and just wanted to kill them in private. Its a wildly corrupt combination of state-owned industries, partially state-owned industries working as proxies, and no real accountability at any level of government that is controlled through one party that decides every other position in government.
Theres really nothing communist or socialist about the country anymore. They just keep the fiction running to stay in power.
Having state-owned business doesn't turn you into Nazi Germany, what the hell lol. I was in Shenzhen for work about a year ago and I can safely tell you that it was nothing like Nazi Germany. China is an autocratic state, not a totalitarian one. The country is depoliticized, not caught in a giant struggle for life and death and total war.
China's private sector is also large, probably 60-70% of the economy, a lot of it informal. In many ways the country is so capitalist it makes the US look socialist, competition between private firms is cutthroat in ways you don't find in many other places.
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On July 18 2020 18:45 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2020 08:19 Sermokala wrote:
China is definitely everything nazi Germany was if Hitler wasn't making explicit speeches about hating jews and just wanted to kill them in private. Its a wildly corrupt combination of state-owned industries, partially state-owned industries working as proxies, and no real accountability at any level of government that is controlled through one party that decides every other position in government.
Theres really nothing communist or socialist about the country anymore. They just keep the fiction running to stay in power. Having state-owned business doesn't turn you into Nazi Germany, what the hell lol. I was in Shenzhen for work about a year ago and I can safely tell you that it was nothing like Nazi Germany. China is an autocratic state, not a totalitarian one. The country is depoliticized, not caught in a giant struggle for life and death and total war. China's private sector is also large, probably 60-70% of the economy, a lot of it informal. In many ways the country is so capitalist it makes the US look socialist, competition between private firms is cutthroat in ways you don't find in many other places.
So you know what it was like in Nazi Germany?
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On July 18 2020 19:45 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2020 18:45 Nyxisto wrote:On July 18 2020 08:19 Sermokala wrote:
China is definitely everything nazi Germany was if Hitler wasn't making explicit speeches about hating jews and just wanted to kill them in private. Its a wildly corrupt combination of state-owned industries, partially state-owned industries working as proxies, and no real accountability at any level of government that is controlled through one party that decides every other position in government.
Theres really nothing communist or socialist about the country anymore. They just keep the fiction running to stay in power. Having state-owned business doesn't turn you into Nazi Germany, what the hell lol. I was in Shenzhen for work about a year ago and I can safely tell you that it was nothing like Nazi Germany. China is an autocratic state, not a totalitarian one. The country is depoliticized, not caught in a giant struggle for life and death and total war. China's private sector is also large, probably 60-70% of the economy, a lot of it informal. In many ways the country is so capitalist it makes the US look socialist, competition between private firms is cutthroat in ways you don't find in many other places. So you know what it was like in Nazi Germany?
Being German, having family who lived through World War 2 both on the German and Polish sides, having talked to actual holocaust survivors I'm pretty sure I have a better grasp on what it was like in Nazi Germany than someone comparing every non-democratic government on the planet to it, yes.
It seems very popular in US discourse today to call everything Nazi-like, doesn't make it any more accurate.
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On July 18 2020 19:54 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2020 19:45 sharkie wrote:On July 18 2020 18:45 Nyxisto wrote:On July 18 2020 08:19 Sermokala wrote:
China is definitely everything nazi Germany was if Hitler wasn't making explicit speeches about hating jews and just wanted to kill them in private. Its a wildly corrupt combination of state-owned industries, partially state-owned industries working as proxies, and no real accountability at any level of government that is controlled through one party that decides every other position in government.
Theres really nothing communist or socialist about the country anymore. They just keep the fiction running to stay in power. Having state-owned business doesn't turn you into Nazi Germany, what the hell lol. I was in Shenzhen for work about a year ago and I can safely tell you that it was nothing like Nazi Germany. China is an autocratic state, not a totalitarian one. The country is depoliticized, not caught in a giant struggle for life and death and total war. China's private sector is also large, probably 60-70% of the economy, a lot of it informal. In many ways the country is so capitalist it makes the US look socialist, competition between private firms is cutthroat in ways you don't find in many other places. So you know what it was like in Nazi Germany? Being German, having family who lived through World War 2 both on the German and Polish sides, having talked to actual holocaust survivors I'm pretty sure I have a better grasp on what it was like in Nazi Germany than someone comparing every non-democratic government on the planet to it, yes. It seems very popular in US discourse today to call everything Nazi-like, doesn't make it any more accurate.
So in your year in Shenzhen you talked to Black minimum wage workers, Muslim Western Chinese people?
Or are you comparing your luxurious lifestyle in one of the biggest Chinese cities, built for Western people to holocaust victims?
You are comparing apples and oranges
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On July 18 2020 19:54 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2020 19:45 sharkie wrote:On July 18 2020 18:45 Nyxisto wrote:On July 18 2020 08:19 Sermokala wrote:
China is definitely everything nazi Germany was if Hitler wasn't making explicit speeches about hating jews and just wanted to kill them in private. Its a wildly corrupt combination of state-owned industries, partially state-owned industries working as proxies, and no real accountability at any level of government that is controlled through one party that decides every other position in government.
Theres really nothing communist or socialist about the country anymore. They just keep the fiction running to stay in power. Having state-owned business doesn't turn you into Nazi Germany, what the hell lol. I was in Shenzhen for work about a year ago and I can safely tell you that it was nothing like Nazi Germany. China is an autocratic state, not a totalitarian one. The country is depoliticized, not caught in a giant struggle for life and death and total war. China's private sector is also large, probably 60-70% of the economy, a lot of it informal. In many ways the country is so capitalist it makes the US look socialist, competition between private firms is cutthroat in ways you don't find in many other places. So you know what it was like in Nazi Germany? Being German, having family who lived through World War 2, having talked to actual holocaust survivors I'm pretty sure I have a better grasp on what it was like in Nazi Germany than someone comparing every non-democratic government on the planet to it, yes.
For most people, Nazi Germany was just another government. In fact, initially maybe even better than the previous one, because they stopped paying the ridiculous reparations and invested in huge government projects that gave many people jobs. We have this weird idea that because a regime is terrible, it must be awful for everyone living there. It is simply wrong. What happens is that life continues as normal except that the shoemaker on the corner suddenly disappears and if you try to ask what happens you get shushed. And if you don't shush then maybe you disappear as well, but most people shush. And then when the butcher opposite disappears they join in doing the shushing. And life continues for these people mostly the same as it was before except they can't talk about certain topics.
Of course, if you happen to be a Jew, or gay, or gypsy then no matter how much you shush, you got disappeared. And China isn't dissimilar right now with how they're rounding up Uyghurs and "reeducating" them. Oh, and the "social credit" ranking program is something the Nazis could only dream of.
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On July 18 2020 20:04 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2020 19:54 Nyxisto wrote:On July 18 2020 19:45 sharkie wrote:On July 18 2020 18:45 Nyxisto wrote:On July 18 2020 08:19 Sermokala wrote:
China is definitely everything nazi Germany was if Hitler wasn't making explicit speeches about hating jews and just wanted to kill them in private. Its a wildly corrupt combination of state-owned industries, partially state-owned industries working as proxies, and no real accountability at any level of government that is controlled through one party that decides every other position in government.
Theres really nothing communist or socialist about the country anymore. They just keep the fiction running to stay in power. Having state-owned business doesn't turn you into Nazi Germany, what the hell lol. I was in Shenzhen for work about a year ago and I can safely tell you that it was nothing like Nazi Germany. China is an autocratic state, not a totalitarian one. The country is depoliticized, not caught in a giant struggle for life and death and total war. China's private sector is also large, probably 60-70% of the economy, a lot of it informal. In many ways the country is so capitalist it makes the US look socialist, competition between private firms is cutthroat in ways you don't find in many other places. So you know what it was like in Nazi Germany? Being German, having family who lived through World War 2 both on the German and Polish sides, having talked to actual holocaust survivors I'm pretty sure I have a better grasp on what it was like in Nazi Germany than someone comparing every non-democratic government on the planet to it, yes. It seems very popular in US discourse today to call everything Nazi-like, doesn't make it any more accurate. So in your year in Shenzhen you talked to Black minimum wage workers, Muslim Western Chinese people? Or are you comparing your luxurious lifestyle in one of the biggest Chinese cities, built for Western people to holocaust victims? You are comparing apples and oranges
I've also been to Western China. It's heavily policed and what's happening there is awful, however it's not comparable to the totalitarianism of Nazism, and everyone who makes these comparisons has likely no experience with either. There's many disastrous human rights violations in China, not just concerning the Muslim population but the hukou system in general which has basically created a caste-like system (and yes I've also personally talked to illegal workers who bascially make a living on the fringes), but none of this compares to the destruction brought onto the world in the second world war.
Any thinking person has to be able to make judgements without immediately falling back to Hitler.
For most people, Nazi Germany was just another government. In fact, initially maybe even better than the previous one, because they stopped paying the ridiculous reparations and invested in huge government projects that gave many people jobs. We have this weird idea that because a regime is terrible, it must be awful for everyone living there.
Have you seen how Europe looked after the war was over? The Nazis weren't "some other government"; Jesus Christ, Nazism led to the physical destruction of much of the continent. Next to the house where I grew up in they are digging bombs out of the ground to this day
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On July 18 2020 20:16 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2020 20:04 sharkie wrote:On July 18 2020 19:54 Nyxisto wrote:On July 18 2020 19:45 sharkie wrote:On July 18 2020 18:45 Nyxisto wrote:On July 18 2020 08:19 Sermokala wrote:
China is definitely everything nazi Germany was if Hitler wasn't making explicit speeches about hating jews and just wanted to kill them in private. Its a wildly corrupt combination of state-owned industries, partially state-owned industries working as proxies, and no real accountability at any level of government that is controlled through one party that decides every other position in government.
Theres really nothing communist or socialist about the country anymore. They just keep the fiction running to stay in power. Having state-owned business doesn't turn you into Nazi Germany, what the hell lol. I was in Shenzhen for work about a year ago and I can safely tell you that it was nothing like Nazi Germany. China is an autocratic state, not a totalitarian one. The country is depoliticized, not caught in a giant struggle for life and death and total war. China's private sector is also large, probably 60-70% of the economy, a lot of it informal. In many ways the country is so capitalist it makes the US look socialist, competition between private firms is cutthroat in ways you don't find in many other places. So you know what it was like in Nazi Germany? Being German, having family who lived through World War 2 both on the German and Polish sides, having talked to actual holocaust survivors I'm pretty sure I have a better grasp on what it was like in Nazi Germany than someone comparing every non-democratic government on the planet to it, yes. It seems very popular in US discourse today to call everything Nazi-like, doesn't make it any more accurate. So in your year in Shenzhen you talked to Black minimum wage workers, Muslim Western Chinese people? Or are you comparing your luxurious lifestyle in one of the biggest Chinese cities, built for Western people to holocaust victims? You are comparing apples and oranges I've also been to Western China. It's heavily policed and what's happening there is awful, however it's not comparable to the totalitarianism of Nazism, and everyone who makes these comparisons has likely no experience with either. There's many disastrous human rights violations in China, not just concerning the Muslim population but the hukou system in general which has basically created a caste-like system (and yes I've also personally talked to illegal workers who bascially make a living on the fringes), but none of this compares to the destruction brought onto the world in the second world war. Any thinking person has to be able to make judgements without immediately falling back to Hitler. Show nested quote +For most people, Nazi Germany was just another government. In fact, initially maybe even better than the previous one, because they stopped paying the ridiculous reparations and invested in huge government projects that gave many people jobs. We have this weird idea that because a regime is terrible, it must be awful for everyone living there. Have you seen how Europe looked after the war was over? The Nazis weren't "some other government"; Jesus Christ, Nazism led to the physical destruction of much of the continent. Next to the house where I grew up in they are digging bombs out of the ground to this day
I'm talking about early 1930s Germany, not mid-1940s... and you know it, so don't compare apples to oranges.
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On July 18 2020 20:16 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2020 20:04 sharkie wrote:On July 18 2020 19:54 Nyxisto wrote:On July 18 2020 19:45 sharkie wrote:On July 18 2020 18:45 Nyxisto wrote:On July 18 2020 08:19 Sermokala wrote:
China is definitely everything nazi Germany was if Hitler wasn't making explicit speeches about hating jews and just wanted to kill them in private. Its a wildly corrupt combination of state-owned industries, partially state-owned industries working as proxies, and no real accountability at any level of government that is controlled through one party that decides every other position in government.
Theres really nothing communist or socialist about the country anymore. They just keep the fiction running to stay in power. Having state-owned business doesn't turn you into Nazi Germany, what the hell lol. I was in Shenzhen for work about a year ago and I can safely tell you that it was nothing like Nazi Germany. China is an autocratic state, not a totalitarian one. The country is depoliticized, not caught in a giant struggle for life and death and total war. China's private sector is also large, probably 60-70% of the economy, a lot of it informal. In many ways the country is so capitalist it makes the US look socialist, competition between private firms is cutthroat in ways you don't find in many other places. So you know what it was like in Nazi Germany? Being German, having family who lived through World War 2 both on the German and Polish sides, having talked to actual holocaust survivors I'm pretty sure I have a better grasp on what it was like in Nazi Germany than someone comparing every non-democratic government on the planet to it, yes. It seems very popular in US discourse today to call everything Nazi-like, doesn't make it any more accurate. So in your year in Shenzhen you talked to Black minimum wage workers, Muslim Western Chinese people? Or are you comparing your luxurious lifestyle in one of the biggest Chinese cities, built for Western people to holocaust victims? You are comparing apples and oranges I've also been to Western China. It's heavily policed and what's happening there is awful, however it's not comparable to the totalitarianism of Nazism, and everyone who makes these comparisons has likely no experience with either. There's many disastrous human rights violations in China, not just concerning the Muslim population but the hukou system in general which has basically created a caste-like system (and yes I've also personally talked to illegal workers who bascially make a living on the fringes), but none of this compares to the destruction brought onto the world in the second world war. Any thinking person has to be able to make judgements without immediately falling back to Hitler. Show nested quote +For most people, Nazi Germany was just another government. In fact, initially maybe even better than the previous one, because they stopped paying the ridiculous reparations and invested in huge government projects that gave many people jobs. We have this weird idea that because a regime is terrible, it must be awful for everyone living there. Have you seen how Europe looked after the war was over? The Nazis weren't "some other government"; Jesus Christ, Nazism led to the physical destruction of much of the continent. Next to the house where I grew up in they are digging bombs out of the ground to this day
You know that the whole world loved Nazi Germany before they started going to war with everyone?
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On July 18 2020 20:23 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2020 20:16 Nyxisto wrote:On July 18 2020 20:04 sharkie wrote:On July 18 2020 19:54 Nyxisto wrote:On July 18 2020 19:45 sharkie wrote:On July 18 2020 18:45 Nyxisto wrote:On July 18 2020 08:19 Sermokala wrote:
China is definitely everything nazi Germany was if Hitler wasn't making explicit speeches about hating jews and just wanted to kill them in private. Its a wildly corrupt combination of state-owned industries, partially state-owned industries working as proxies, and no real accountability at any level of government that is controlled through one party that decides every other position in government.
Theres really nothing communist or socialist about the country anymore. They just keep the fiction running to stay in power. Having state-owned business doesn't turn you into Nazi Germany, what the hell lol. I was in Shenzhen for work about a year ago and I can safely tell you that it was nothing like Nazi Germany. China is an autocratic state, not a totalitarian one. The country is depoliticized, not caught in a giant struggle for life and death and total war. China's private sector is also large, probably 60-70% of the economy, a lot of it informal. In many ways the country is so capitalist it makes the US look socialist, competition between private firms is cutthroat in ways you don't find in many other places. So you know what it was like in Nazi Germany? Being German, having family who lived through World War 2 both on the German and Polish sides, having talked to actual holocaust survivors I'm pretty sure I have a better grasp on what it was like in Nazi Germany than someone comparing every non-democratic government on the planet to it, yes. It seems very popular in US discourse today to call everything Nazi-like, doesn't make it any more accurate. So in your year in Shenzhen you talked to Black minimum wage workers, Muslim Western Chinese people? Or are you comparing your luxurious lifestyle in one of the biggest Chinese cities, built for Western people to holocaust victims? You are comparing apples and oranges I've also been to Western China. It's heavily policed and what's happening there is awful, however it's not comparable to the totalitarianism of Nazism, and everyone who makes these comparisons has likely no experience with either. There's many disastrous human rights violations in China, not just concerning the Muslim population but the hukou system in general which has basically created a caste-like system (and yes I've also personally talked to illegal workers who bascially make a living on the fringes), but none of this compares to the destruction brought onto the world in the second world war. Any thinking person has to be able to make judgements without immediately falling back to Hitler. For most people, Nazi Germany was just another government. In fact, initially maybe even better than the previous one, because they stopped paying the ridiculous reparations and invested in huge government projects that gave many people jobs. We have this weird idea that because a regime is terrible, it must be awful for everyone living there. Have you seen how Europe looked after the war was over? The Nazis weren't "some other government"; Jesus Christ, Nazism led to the physical destruction of much of the continent. Next to the house where I grew up in they are digging bombs out of the ground to this day I'm talking about early 1930s Germany, not mid-1940s... and you know it, so don't compare apples to oranges.
There is no talking about the Nazi regime without talking about the war because it was a central part of its ideology. What kind of third grade logic is it to selectively ignore parts of history just so you can make contemporary comparisons?
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EPT
