Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
On January 24 2019 18:27 xM(Z wrote: wow, get with the times dudes, fascism is way to early nineteens. this here is all about corruption, assholes in power covering their asses; it happens here too. the dude first mentioning fascism should ban himself, you know, 'cause he feels bad he acted that way; trying to mix ethics, morals and ideals with pure greed/gluttony ... shame, shame, shame.
If you dig into fascism enough, you quickly realize that its real goal is to enrich and empower a set group of people in power. It is corruption with the full power of the state behind it and working to cover up or justify that corruption.
On January 24 2019 18:27 xM(Z wrote: wow, get with the times dudes, fascism is way to early nineteens. this here is all about corruption, assholes in power covering their asses; it happens here too. the dude first mentioning fascism should ban himself, you know, 'cause he feels bad he acted that way; trying to mix ethics, morals and ideals with pure greed/gluttony ... shame, shame, shame.
If you dig into fascism enough, you quickly realize that its real goal is to enrich and empower a set group of people in power. It is corruption with the full power of the state behind it and working to cover up or justify that corruption.
That is a dirty humanist point of view in which people are the atoms of society.
A fascist worships the nation as the smallest individual unit, destined to act, fight and suffer as one. Corruption within the nation state does not exist per definition, because the nation state itself is one. "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer!"
On January 24 2019 18:27 xM(Z wrote: wow, get with the times dudes, fascism is way to early nineteens. this here is all about corruption, assholes in power covering their asses; it happens here too. the dude first mentioning fascism should ban himself, you know, 'cause he feels bad he acted that way; trying to mix ethics, morals and ideals with pure greed/gluttony ... shame, shame, shame.
If you dig into fascism enough, you quickly realize that its real goal is to enrich and empower a set group of people in power. It is corruption with the full power of the state behind it and working to cover up or justify that corruption.
That is a dirty humanist point of view in which people are the atoms of society.
A fascist worships the nation as the smallest individual unit, destined to act, fight and suffer as one. Corruption within the state does not exist per definition, because the nation itself should not be split into individual beings. "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer!"
I am talking about the end result, not the ideology. Fascism is the worship of the state over the individual on its face and through political discussion. But state, or government, is still made up of people and those people are enriched by this worship. It creates a system where people either join the group that the state supports to become enriched or are oppressed for opposing the state.
On January 24 2019 18:27 xM(Z wrote: wow, get with the times dudes, fascism is way to early nineteens. this here is all about corruption, assholes in power covering their asses; it happens here too. the dude first mentioning fascism should ban himself, you know, 'cause he feels bad he acted that way; trying to mix ethics, morals and ideals with pure greed/gluttony ... shame, shame, shame.
If you dig into fascism enough, you quickly realize that its real goal is to enrich and empower a set group of people in power. It is corruption with the full power of the state behind it and working to cover up or justify that corruption.
That is a dirty humanist point of view in which people are the atoms of society.
A fascist worships the nation as the smallest individual unit, destined to act, fight and suffer as one. Corruption within the nation state does not exist per definition, because the nation state itself is one. "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer!"
I dont think that is correct, fascist certainly do recognize individual existence and corruption. They just think that individual freedom and wellbeing is of no consequences compared to that of nation. The life of indivdual is meaningless compared to that of a nation, but to say they do not recognize it or belive that that states are immune to corruption is a stretch.
On January 24 2019 18:27 xM(Z wrote: wow, get with the times dudes, fascism is way to early nineteens. this here is all about corruption, assholes in power covering their asses; it happens here too. the dude first mentioning fascism should ban himself, you know, 'cause he feels bad he acted that way; trying to mix ethics, morals and ideals with pure greed/gluttony ... shame, shame, shame.
If you dig into fascism enough, you quickly realize that its real goal is to enrich and empower a set group of people in power. It is corruption with the full power of the state behind it and working to cover up or justify that corruption.
That is a dirty humanist point of view in which people are the atoms of society.
A fascist worships the nation as the smallest individual unit, destined to act, fight and suffer as one. Corruption within the state does not exist per definition, because the nation itself should not be split into individual beings. "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer!"
I am talking about the end result, not the ideology. Fascism is the worship of the state over the individual on its face and through political discussion. But state, or government, is still made up of people and those people are enriched by this worship. It creates a system where people either join the group that the state supports to become enriched or are oppressed for opposing the state.
That's like saying your poor fingers suffer at the oppression of your brain, because when its cold they have to go with less oxygen so your brain can keep running. The brain is clearly enriching itself at the cost of your fingers! Finger cells should revolt and overthrow that shitty corrupt brain!
It's pointless rhetoric. The only thing that counts is the wellbeing of the state. If some people get exploited as slaves and others live as kings, that is irrelevant, as long as that is to the greater benefit of the state.
On January 24 2019 18:27 xM(Z wrote: wow, get with the times dudes, fascism is way to early nineteens. this here is all about corruption, assholes in power covering their asses; it happens here too. the dude first mentioning fascism should ban himself, you know, 'cause he feels bad he acted that way; trying to mix ethics, morals and ideals with pure greed/gluttony ... shame, shame, shame.
If you dig into fascism enough, you quickly realize that its real goal is to enrich and empower a set group of people in power. It is corruption with the full power of the state behind it and working to cover up or justify that corruption.
That is a dirty humanist point of view in which people are the atoms of society.
A fascist worships the nation as the smallest individual unit, destined to act, fight and suffer as one. Corruption within the state does not exist per definition, because the nation itself should not be split into individual beings. "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer!"
I am talking about the end result, not the ideology. Fascism is the worship of the state over the individual on its face and through political discussion. But state, or government, is still made up of people and those people are enriched by this worship. It creates a system where people either join the group that the state supports to become enriched or are oppressed for opposing the state.
Of course I agree with you. My point is that you are running into a true Scotsman discussion. xM(Z has more than once declared how he believes that certain people should act as national units.
If your smallest unit is the kilogram then you are not interested in what happens with grams to begin with. If your smallest unit is the nation then you are not interested in what is going on within the nation. That fascism, like any other -ism that does not value the individualist nature of the human being, is illogical is obvious. And trying to achieve the illogical will always end in a crisis.
On January 24 2019 18:27 xM(Z wrote: wow, get with the times dudes, fascism is way to early nineteens. this here is all about corruption, assholes in power covering their asses; it happens here too. the dude first mentioning fascism should ban himself, you know, 'cause he feels bad he acted that way; trying to mix ethics, morals and ideals with pure greed/gluttony ... shame, shame, shame.
If you dig into fascism enough, you quickly realize that its real goal is to enrich and empower a set group of people in power. It is corruption with the full power of the state behind it and working to cover up or justify that corruption.
That is a dirty humanist point of view in which people are the atoms of society.
A fascist worships the nation as the smallest individual unit, destined to act, fight and suffer as one. Corruption within the nation state does not exist per definition, because the nation state itself is one. "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer!"
I dont think that is correct, fascist certainly do recognize individual existence and corruption. They just think that individual freedom and wellbeing is of no consequences compared to that of nation. The life of indivdual is meaningless compared to that of a nation, but to say they do not recognize it or belive that that states are immune to corruption is a stretch.
I think you are right in that sense that they recognize that there are people who believe in individualism. But it actually turns physical reality on its head. Instead of recognizing the individualist nature of people and then arguing how to create political systems for individuals, they recognize the existance of the nation and then try to cure people from individualism.
On January 24 2019 18:27 xM(Z wrote: wow, get with the times dudes, fascism is way to early nineteens. this here is all about corruption, assholes in power covering their asses; it happens here too. the dude first mentioning fascism should ban himself, you know, 'cause he feels bad he acted that way; trying to mix ethics, morals and ideals with pure greed/gluttony ... shame, shame, shame.
If you dig into fascism enough, you quickly realize that its real goal is to enrich and empower a set group of people in power. It is corruption with the full power of the state behind it and working to cover up or justify that corruption.
That is a dirty humanist point of view in which people are the atoms of society.
A fascist worships the nation as the smallest individual unit, destined to act, fight and suffer as one. Corruption within the state does not exist per definition, because the nation itself should not be split into individual beings. "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer!"
I am talking about the end result, not the ideology. Fascism is the worship of the state over the individual on its face and through political discussion. But state, or government, is still made up of people and those people are enriched by this worship. It creates a system where people either join the group that the state supports to become enriched or are oppressed for opposing the state.
Of course I agree with you. My point is that you are running into a true Scotsman discussion. xM(Z has more than once declared how he believes that certain people should act as national units.
If your smallest unit is the kilogram then you are not interested in what happens with grams to begin with. If your smallest unit is the nation then you are not interested in what is going on within the nation. That fascism, like any other -ism that does not value the individualist nature of the human being, is illogical is obvious. And trying to achieve the illogical will always end in a crisis.
I do agree. One the problems with discussing fascism is modern media has turned Nazis into cartoon villains and video game characters. So fascism has been elevated to this level of mustache twirling evil, rather than the banal reality of how fascists rise to power through promoting the state and nationalism while undermining the systems that would keep them in check. So when start saying that “judges are the enemy of the people,” people try to rationalize the language, rather than release demonizing the independent legal system is text book fascist tactics. The red flags are not raised. The alarms do not go off. This is why I point out that corruption and personal enrichment is one of the goals those who promote fascism, because there is an end goal to their tactics.
On January 24 2019 18:27 xM(Z wrote: wow, get with the times dudes, fascism is way to early nineteens. this here is all about corruption, assholes in power covering their asses; it happens here too. the dude first mentioning fascism should ban himself, you know, 'cause he feels bad he acted that way; trying to mix ethics, morals and ideals with pure greed/gluttony ... shame, shame, shame.
If you dig into fascism enough, you quickly realize that its real goal is to enrich and empower a set group of people in power. It is corruption with the full power of the state behind it and working to cover up or justify that corruption.
That is a dirty humanist point of view in which people are the atoms of society.
A fascist worships the nation as the smallest individual unit, destined to act, fight and suffer as one. Corruption within the state does not exist per definition, because the nation itself should not be split into individual beings. "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer!"
I am talking about the end result, not the ideology. Fascism is the worship of the state over the individual on its face and through political discussion. But state, or government, is still made up of people and those people are enriched by this worship. It creates a system where people either join the group that the state supports to become enriched or are oppressed for opposing the state.
Of course I agree with you. My point is that you are running into a true Scotsman discussion. xM(Z has more than once declared how he believes that certain people should act as national units.
If your smallest unit is the kilogram then you are not interested in what happens with grams to begin with. If your smallest unit is the nation then you are not interested in what is going on within the nation. That fascism, like any other -ism that does not value the individualist nature of the human being, is illogical is obvious. And trying to achieve the illogical will always end in a crisis.
I do agree. One the problems with discussing fascism is modern media has turned Nazis into cartoon villains and video game characters. So fascism has been elevated to this level of mustache twirling evil, rather than the banal reality of how fascists rise to power through promoting the state and nationalism while undermining the systems that would keep them in check. So when start saying that “judges are the enemy of the people,” people try to rationalize the language, rather than release demonizing the independent legal system is text book fascist tactics. The red flags are not raised. The alarms do not go off. This is why I point out that corruption and personal enrichment is one of the goals those who promote fascism, because there is an end goal to their tactics.
Its worth noting that the media has also turned antifa into an evil, overreacting group of hysterical violent thugs instead of the locally run community groups that mostly do boring admin work trying to raise awareness about fascism in local areas.
On January 24 2019 18:27 xM(Z wrote: wow, get with the times dudes, fascism is way to early nineteens. this here is all about corruption, assholes in power covering their asses; it happens here too. the dude first mentioning fascism should ban himself, you know, 'cause he feels bad he acted that way; trying to mix ethics, morals and ideals with pure greed/gluttony ... shame, shame, shame.
If you dig into fascism enough, you quickly realize that its real goal is to enrich and empower a set group of people in power. It is corruption with the full power of the state behind it and working to cover up or justify that corruption.
That is a dirty humanist point of view in which people are the atoms of society.
A fascist worships the nation as the smallest individual unit, destined to act, fight and suffer as one. Corruption within the state does not exist per definition, because the nation itself should not be split into individual beings. "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer!"
I am talking about the end result, not the ideology. Fascism is the worship of the state over the individual on its face and through political discussion. But state, or government, is still made up of people and those people are enriched by this worship. It creates a system where people either join the group that the state supports to become enriched or are oppressed for opposing the state.
Of course I agree with you. My point is that you are running into a true Scotsman discussion. xM(Z has more than once declared how he believes that certain people should act as national units.
If your smallest unit is the kilogram then you are not interested in what happens with grams to begin with. If your smallest unit is the nation then you are not interested in what is going on within the nation. That fascism, like any other -ism that does not value the individualist nature of the human being, is illogical is obvious. And trying to achieve the illogical will always end in a crisis.
I do agree. One the problems with discussing fascism is modern media has turned Nazis into cartoon villains and video game characters. So fascism has been elevated to this level of mustache twirling evil, rather than the banal reality of how fascists rise to power through promoting the state and nationalism while undermining the systems that would keep them in check. So when start saying that “judges are the enemy of the people,” people try to rationalize the language, rather than release demonizing the independent legal system is text book fascist tactics. The red flags are not raised. The alarms do not go off. This is why I point out that corruption and personal enrichment is one of the goals those who promote fascism, because there is an end goal to their tactics.
I think you're incorrect here. The red flags absolutely do go up.
The problem is that the people who need to heed them - the ones on the right - don't consider them a warning, they see a recommendation. The idea that these people are sleepwalking into fascism is nonsense; a lot of them might not use the word but they are absolutely fascists. You can't 'warn' them about something they are hoping to get.
The real red flag is our societies have shifted around to orient in such a way that the group of people who believe this is a good thing is growing rather than being the lunatic fringe. But that isn't a red flag you can really respond to.
It tells us where we're going, where our society's momentum is turning.
On January 24 2019 18:27 xM(Z wrote: wow, get with the times dudes, fascism is way to early nineteens. this here is all about corruption, assholes in power covering their asses; it happens here too. the dude first mentioning fascism should ban himself, you know, 'cause he feels bad he acted that way; trying to mix ethics, morals and ideals with pure greed/gluttony ... shame, shame, shame.
If you dig into fascism enough, you quickly realize that its real goal is to enrich and empower a set group of people in power. It is corruption with the full power of the state behind it and working to cover up or justify that corruption.
That is a dirty humanist point of view in which people are the atoms of society.
A fascist worships the nation as the smallest individual unit, destined to act, fight and suffer as one. Corruption within the state does not exist per definition, because the nation itself should not be split into individual beings. "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer!"
I am talking about the end result, not the ideology. Fascism is the worship of the state over the individual on its face and through political discussion. But state, or government, is still made up of people and those people are enriched by this worship. It creates a system where people either join the group that the state supports to become enriched or are oppressed for opposing the state.
Of course I agree with you. My point is that you are running into a true Scotsman discussion. xM(Z has more than once declared how he believes that certain people should act as national units.
If your smallest unit is the kilogram then you are not interested in what happens with grams to begin with. If your smallest unit is the nation then you are not interested in what is going on within the nation. That fascism, like any other -ism that does not value the individualist nature of the human being, is illogical is obvious. And trying to achieve the illogical will always end in a crisis.
I do agree. One the problems with discussing fascism is modern media has turned Nazis into cartoon villains and video game characters. So fascism has been elevated to this level of mustache twirling evil, rather than the banal reality of how fascists rise to power through promoting the state and nationalism while undermining the systems that would keep them in check. So when start saying that “judges are the enemy of the people,” people try to rationalize the language, rather than release demonizing the independent legal system is text book fascist tactics. The red flags are not raised. The alarms do not go off. This is why I point out that corruption and personal enrichment is one of the goals those who promote fascism, because there is an end goal to their tactics.
I think you're incorrect here. The red flags absolutely do go up.
The problem is that the people who need to heed them - the ones on the right - don't consider them a warning, they see a recommendation. The idea that these people are sleepwalking into fascism is nonsense; a lot of them might not use the word but they are absolutely fascists. You can't 'warn' them about something they are hoping to get.
The real red flag is our societies have shifted around to orient in such a way that the group of people who believe this is a good thing is growing rather than being the lunatic fringe. But that isn't a red flag you can really respond to.
It tells us where we're going, where our society's momentum is turning.
Well I think one major issue is that democratic liberalism isn't really equipped to stop it. Because by the time they adjust the processes and institutions to combat the rising fascism the fascists have already corrupted them from inside while distracting them with bad faith arguments hamfistedly regurgitating neoliberals own rhetoric to leave them bound up explaining themselves and infighting.
When neoliberalism strips the class analysis from identity politics it leaves itself wide open for the same argument to be used for fascists. The fascism or neoliberalism is better the more identities that that say so and there's always someone of near every identity willing or desperate enough to be a token for any ideology with such a gap.
I am always uneasy by denuncing police violence unlike thedwf cuz I have family on it but this is becoming blatant.
I mean, I do speak a bit French, but not angry people shouting at police French and the link you posted didn't really provide more context than your post.
On January 24 2019 18:27 xM(Z wrote: wow, get with the times dudes, fascism is way to early nineteens. this here is all about corruption, assholes in power covering their asses; it happens here too. the dude first mentioning fascism should ban himself, you know, 'cause he feels bad he acted that way; trying to mix ethics, morals and ideals with pure greed/gluttony ... shame, shame, shame.
If you dig into fascism enough, you quickly realize that its real goal is to enrich and empower a set group of people in power. It is corruption with the full power of the state behind it and working to cover up or justify that corruption.
That is a dirty humanist point of view in which people are the atoms of society.
A fascist worships the nation as the smallest individual unit, destined to act, fight and suffer as one. Corruption within the nation state does not exist per definition, because the nation state itself is one. "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer!"
Even taking that into account P6 is right, as fascists won't accept the "deviant" parts of their society just because they happen to be from the same nation as them. Fascism is about choosing what type of people get to have power in society, and every time you "meet a goal", the type of people becomes smaller and smaller. There's never a point where fascism "wins" and gets the society that it purports to want.
On January 27 2019 03:52 stilt wrote: I wonder what excuses the liberal and "sensible" ppl of TL will find :p
Don't form your political opinions based on video footage because 1. it's basically just an emotional response, 2. video footage is easily placed out of context, as we have already seen when it came to the detained school kids or some of the other videos. Whoever gives you video footage or imagery to make a point in a political conflict always selectively picks whatever they think serves their position.
On January 27 2019 03:52 stilt wrote: I wonder what excuses the liberal and "sensible" ppl of TL will find :p
Don't form your political opinions based on video footage because 1. it's basically just an emotional response, 2. video footage is easily placed out of context, as we have already seen when it came to the detained school kids or some of the other videos. Whoever gives you video footage or imagery to make a point in a political conflict always selectively picks whatever they think serves their position.
The guy was doing a facebook live, you got plenty of context here, he got hit around 9min20. Well, I am pretty sure you will still justify this by a lack of context but anyway, you better have to be in a good physical shape to demonstrate in Paris nowadays, running while being asphyxiate with the fumigene is pretty fucked up and I am not a black block or a guy who searchs violence with the cops, there are too well armed and I still secretly believe that they could become allies, their conditions are hards too.
Hey man, no offense, but you come in here saying you're interested how people of this thread will justify police violence. This makes me think you've never ever read this thread consciously before and that's why I asked for some more context.
And a single video, shocking as it is, wouldn't make for a compelling argument for police violence, insofar what Nyxisto said is, according to my reading of his post, to be interpreted not as an accusation directed at you, but more of a general statement that relying on a single piece of information to form an opinion / judge a situation might in some cases not be the best of ideas.
My sympathies obviously go out to this person who might have lost any eye, seriously damaged it or even if he's fine, being attacked by police forces while excerting one's right to protest is nothing you want to have happen to you (I know from experience unfortunately).
Most of all, I don't understand why you'd think people would want to justify that???
e: oh and that you're providing some more information instead of posting a video and a one liner is a tremendous improvement to your previous post.
And to be precise, of fucking course the culprit should be held accountable.
On January 27 2019 06:50 Artisreal wrote: Hey man, no offense, but you come in here saying you're interested how people of this thread will justify police violence. This makes me think you've never ever read this thread consciously before and that's why I asked for some more context.
And a single video, shocking as it is, wouldn't make for a compelling argument for police violence, insofar what Nyxisto said is, according to my reading of his post, to be interpreted not as an accusation directed at you, but more of a general statement that relying on a single piece of information to form an opinion / judge a situation might in some cases not be the best of ideas.
My sympathies obviously go out to this person who might have lost any eye, seriously damaged it or even if he's fine, being attacked by police forces while excerting one's right to protest is nothing you want to have happen to you (I know from experience unfortunately).
Most of all, I don't understand why you'd think people would want to justify that???
e: oh and that you're providing some more information instead of posting a video and a one liner is a tremendous improvement to your previous post.
And to be precise, of fucking course the culprit should be held accountable.
For sure, you need the 360 angles in order to prove the agression. As for your question... Well, this demonstration is basically an opposition to austerity politicies and to you, the "winners" of globalization so in opposition to the ones which defend it who are dominant in this forum. Indeed it is a demonstration for social rights which is not led by the upper class. So its targets are social inequality and the privilege of the richest.
It is not about the specific interest of a community but for "everyone". Thus, it can only be associated with populism (yellow jackets have been associated with racism, antisemetism and some shits like those, well, considering its spontaneous nature, there are always fascists elements but overall, I would call the movement republican, almost jacobin) cuz it is in opposition to the racial struggle or any idea of community interests which are valued in liberal society. Basically, they pretended to represent the people, not a part of society, hence it's universal (at least, in principles).
And did you read the comments when this sort of accident happen? On TL, the mods makes it more civil and polite, but overall, everything is done to justify the repression "well done", "it's deserved" and the traditionnal "dunno the context" and "fake news" "he should have not been here" are the general answers hence why I don't bother to publish like Thedwf all the violences. (and for the record, there are indeed fake news which could crush all the argues)
Most of Macron' supporters reason like this, the "honest people" who like to pretend they are humanists (even if our postmodern society reject the universalism of humanism conceived as "white" and so, oppressive) and sensible while they are totally fines when the unreasonnable "populists" (aka, ppl from an inferior social statut but let's pretend they are fascists) are reprimed. It's a trope in the medias, we even have a previous minister who called the use of the army.
The worst is the liberal society encourages fascism/far right politics; Lepen would not be so strong if the left dominated by the liberals did not try to attack the republic and its universalism, nowadays, the garant of it are the far right, an irony of history considering they always tried to destroy it. And is it surprising that in a racial struggle, Trump was elected? I don't think so, a majority of whites voted for Trump, the others for Clinton, social rights do not really exist, the racial struggle has exceeded the social one.
Well tbf, america has always been like this, a struggle between communities while the top could quietly dominate and exerced charity called "philanthropy" (hence the developement of religious communities, a emphasis directed to the origins and so on), I should not really care what happened here but the cultural hegemony of this country imported his politics to Europe, in this perspective, yellow jacket is not only a movement caused by social struggle but a resistance to the liberal society which plays the divide and conquer to another level.
You come in here and just assume that everyone you are talking to are the enemy. You don't try to understand their position, or even find out what it is.
You didn't even try to make an argument, or describe a position you have. You just said that we would all disagree (and now you have come to the conclusion that people that you have basically no information whatsoever about are the "winners" of globalisation.)
At least wait for people to disagree before trying to preemptively fight them. Maybe you would find some people agreeing with you. Especially if you made good arguments. But of course it is easier to just assume everyone is already biased against you, that removes the requirement of actually making an argument, because those people who are biased wouldn't listen anyways.
Try arguing with real people, not with the images of those people that you produce in your head before talking to them. You might get surprised. And even if not, at least you will not be discussing with yourself.
EPT
