EPTas far as religious beliefs not being true, that's just a factual conclusion, and is independent of any consideration of the believers. essentially i am ok with some version of second order religious fictionalism that will not delude practitioners into falsely relying on religious metaphysics in their reasoning. i will not discuss this conclusion here.
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 113
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
as far as religious beliefs not being true, that's just a factual conclusion, and is independent of any consideration of the believers. essentially i am ok with some version of second order religious fictionalism that will not delude practitioners into falsely relying on religious metaphysics in their reasoning. i will not discuss this conclusion here. | ||
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phil.ipp
Austria1067 Posts
thats not exclusive to the islam. though in the west its not so dominant anymore, its still there, but comes often only through on big controversial topics like abortion ect. in the muslim countrys, religion is much more integrated into the government, like it was 60 years ago in europe too. now when people migrate to europe from there, they obviously think they can influence politics here too. but you dont have to give into it. in fact religions like islam struggle to get even to the level other religions are. building a mosque in austria is fucking HARD. and thats not even a try to influence policy. the fear that europe is kind of infiltrated from more and more muslims migrating to europe, and policy's cater to islam views, is to me absurd. europe got Christianity out of politics for the biggest part, nobody will let religious fanatics dictate politics. also you overestimating the migration. its only the first generation who brings radical views with them. the second and third are mostly not even religious anymore, only on paper. we are not becoming like them, its the other way around, they are becoming like us. | ||
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Noizhende
Austria328 Posts
On the matter of who is becoming who: i think immigrants from states with highly traditional societies often find themselves in a world where apparently noone gives a fuck about values (at least their values) so they tend to hold on to their traditions very strongly, because they are afraid to lose their identity. here the religions may come into play, which are very often something to hold on to when the world around you doesn't make sense any more. So many people flee into this sort of thing and overidentify themselves with their religious or traditionalistic beliefs, which can cause trouble especially when you don't have a system in place to give the following generation good education, and if you fail to give them the opportunities to live in both these worlds (contrary to living in neither of them). if you lose the following generations, you just invite trouble. so it's all in the education, jobs, perspectives, and they are not becoming "like us"(does everyone in a country have to be the same, or do we just have to make sure everyone can make a living/be happy/pursue their dreams?) all by themselves, you have to give them and their kids a hand. on overestimated migration from outside the eu: biggest group of immigrants in austria are germans, lol! | ||
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phil.ipp
Austria1067 Posts
and the schools are key, if you control whats taught in school, if you give religion only a small space, observe and control whats taught in the regligion subject, then i dont see a problem. thats the game over time, and with that you win always in my opinion. we see this with our grandparents who mostly are real christians, most people 2 generations later dont give a fuck anymore. thats because they pretty much banned all religion out of the standard subjects, their is only an hour a week where children hear something about religion, thats it. of course they dont give a fuck. its the same with muslims. what some people mistake for the fault of religion is when uneducated, poor people without a good future, take on radical views. thats not the fault of islam genereally, if there wouldnt be a radical following of islam then these people would find something else radical, white people become maybe nazis, or follow some radical left wing group. you can blame islam now for it, but people have to understand, if islam wouldnt be there, then some other radical group would be there. if you give people a future, a path they can take and live their life decent, there is very very little opportunity for radical groups. also there are way more radical groups/terrorists in europe who are not muslims. IRA / ETA / RAF / FLNC .. im sure i scratch only the surface. | ||
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lastpuritan
United States540 Posts
On April 26 2015 18:41 Yuljan wrote: Untrue. I grew up with muslims. Most of my friends are muslims and i spend 6 months living in Turkey. There I realized how harmful Islam is and what happens when muslims get any kind of power in a society. The changes since my trip have been horrible. Its a completely different country now thank to Erdogan and his islamist allies. I came to realize that Islam has to be opposed in any way possible. I spent 2 weeks in Milton Keynes and i decided either i am alien or these guys. I didnt understand any of their jokes and vice versa. (student exchange ) I spent 1 day in Paris, i could not find anything to eat in the hotel J'ai habité. And during my 4 hours of trip in the city, many refused to talk with me because we dont know their language, my father was angry coz of an old guy who says he knows english but wont speak, this is france! A random young girl helped us to find Mc Donalds and city was nearly dead after 9 pm. Great city though. (due to my fathers work) I spent 2 weeks in Istanbul and i can say it was closest city to my town in terms of the accent they were using, daily life and eating habits, though i got sick since i drunk water from taps, they can drink it but we cant, still dont know why. However, it was like any other city in Europe, at first i was really worried to enter a muslim society but later on i realized, at least Turkey is not one. I did not see any of the stereotypes about the muslims in their public. So i really wonder what happened during your trip. ( an american friend from ohio invited us ) | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10763 Posts
On April 27 2015 05:11 lastpuritan wrote: I spent 1 day in Paris, i could not find anything to eat in the hotel J'ai habité. And during my 4 hours of trip in the city, many refused to talk with me because we dont know their language, my father was angry coz of an old guy who says he knows english but wont speak, this is france! A random young girl helped us to find Mc Donalds and city was nearly dead after 9 pm. Great city though. (due to my fathers work) The language thing is kinda "french"... But if you just try a little french they tend to open up and are helpfull fast. What kind of hotel was this? Can't believe you couldn't get something "normal" to eat there? | ||
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lastpuritan
United States540 Posts
On April 27 2015 05:43 Velr wrote: The language thing is kinda "french"... But if you just try a little french they tend to open up and be helpfull fast. What kind of hotel was this? Can't believe you couldn't get something "normal" to eat there? I dont like fish and menu was full of with em. xD | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On April 27 2015 05:09 phil.ipp wrote: what some people mistake for the fault of religion is when uneducated, poor people without a good future, take on radical views. thats not the fault of islam genereally, if there wouldnt be a radical following of islam then these people would find something else radical, white people become maybe nazis, or follow some radical left wing group. IRA / ETA / RAF / FLNC .. im sure i scratch only the surface. Actually the two factors that correlate strongest with Islamic terrorism are male gender and high education, but your point is still correct. The 20th century was pretty a much a big lesson in "how people bash each others heads in over things which aren't religion" so people confuse me a bit when they think that Islamism is the core root of all evil in our societies. | ||
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phil.ipp
Austria1067 Posts
if thats no reason to kill TTIP instantly i dont know what is, seriously. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On April 28 2015 20:21 oneofthem wrote: source? http://www.english.rfi.fr/americas/20150427-germany-spied-france-uss-nsa-reports Germany's BND secret services spied on French and other European companies and officials for the US's National Security Agency (NSA), German newspapers have reported, sparking a scandal in Berlin but no official reaction in Paris. What's interesting is that it is corporate spying, reinforcing the idea that being economic partner is full of shit. Note no reaction in Paris, because we're ruled by morons.  | ||
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Makro
France16890 Posts
On April 28 2015 20:25 WhiteDog wrote: http://www.english.rfi.fr/americas/20150427-germany-spied-france-uss-nsa-reports What's interesting is that it is corporate spying, reinforcing the idea that being economic partner is full of shit. Note no reaction in Paris, because we're ruled by morons. i'm quite sure there are a lot of discussions behind the scene and i have faith in the DGSE, no way they couldn't know that was happening | ||
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lord_nibbler
Germany591 Posts
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-intelligence-agency-bnd-under-fire-for-nsa-cooperation-a-1030593.html https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/03/19/us-threatened-germany-snowden-vice-chancellor-says/ "We will stop notifying you of plots and other intelligence matters" is a thinly veiled threat, that even gets head of states back in line... | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
this is securities related espionage | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On April 28 2015 22:31 oneofthem wrote: eh there's not much detail in those reports except it was targeted at EADS and defense. could be just checking up on the progress of french military espionage. That's a suspicion of economic espionage, you don't have to give excuses to it. The french do it too by the way, maybe not at the same scale or by a state agency, but still. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE7271QI20110308?irpc=932 further support of likely or potential nsa counterintelligence rather than aggressive position. eads is pretty much the biggest offender in civilian aircraft economic espionage. http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/upload/wysiwyg/center publication pdfs/EADS.pdf | ||
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lord_nibbler
Germany591 Posts
On April 28 2015 22:53 oneofthem wrote: What the ?looks like the subsidiary of eads was involved in suspected dealing with china so this particular spying episode could be very justified. http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE7271QI20110308?irpc=932 So because EADS wants to expand into China and Boeing does not like it, at that point espionage becomes justified in your eyes? What kind of logic is that? Say you are ok with everybody spying on each other in every legal and illegal way, but please don't come up with ridiculous pretext reasons. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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lord_nibbler
Germany591 Posts
Again, they do a thing the US don't like, so therefore espionage is "justified"? Really? By that token argument almost any spying is always justified. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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