European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 112
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always_winter
United States195 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11343 Posts
If you are around muslims all the time and they turn out to be people just like everyone else, they are no longer the scary outside force that tries to take your jobs. If you barely meet any, they are strange and foreign and scary. | ||
Makro
France16890 Posts
On April 24 2015 23:04 lord_nibbler wrote: If only that was the case. I don't know how it is in other countries, but here in Germany the farther away from a big city you go, the stronger the sentiment of "not in my backyard" gets. With anything really. Try opening an asylum seeker hostel or a rehabilitation center or a psychiatric clinic in a small town or village and all hell breaks loose. Suddenly all those upstanding citizens fight tooth and nail against the very thing they proudly 'supported" beforehand. this is the same in every countryside all over europe | ||
lastpuritan
United States540 Posts
On April 24 2015 17:26 mdb wrote: Situation in Bulgaria is pretty similar. Bulgarian PM this morning used "mass murder of Armenians" instead of genocide, which is quite awkward too. Couple of days ago i was searching about this crisis and reading everything i can find on the net, because it gives me cringe years after years, its like part of the popular culture now and this is saddening. There are thousands of lies and lobbying from both sides and they are trying to speculate the facts by all means. - From what it seems there is not a single trace of intention by Ottomans to destroy Armenians as a race, in their archives. But this does not change the fact that there were massive killings of Armenians. Turks should acknowledge this, but they deny the whole crime. When you say this to them, they reply you back by saying Armenians are rising their death toll every year. See. No mutual "bona fides" . Turks also defend themselves with some strong arguments: - There are no direct written order / command or concoction to kill Armenians. - They did not kill any Armenians in Istanbul or west of the country and they were not forced to emigrate like the ones in the East. - Term "genocide" have become crime in Universal Law after World War 2, so there were not any measures to punish them or frighten them. - Armenia's fake document issue. They proved one incident that Armenians brought fake documents as argument, this incident: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Memoirs_of_Naim_Bey - British side as conqueror of Istanbul held a trial in Malta about this genocide and they sent inspectors in Anatolia, also they held the Ottoman archives. In the end: + Show Spoiler + Court of Law. Admiral de Robeck reported to Lord Curzon on September 1919, the following: "The deportees were selected from a list of persons considered dangerous ... The selection was necessarily made very hurriedly, and it was impossible to rely on known facts..." "It is obvious that in these circumstances it might be very difficult to sustain definite charges against these persons before an allied tribunal. It is not politically desirable that any of them should be sent back to Turkey at present..." (1) It seems that from the very beginning the British Government doubted much whether these Turkish prisoners at Malta were in fact guilty or not. The British authorities were not unaware that the stories of Armenian massacre were a part of wartime propaganda and were still much exploited against Turkey at conference tables during the armistice period. But to make propaganda and to prosecute people before a serious tribunal were indeed quite different things. The responsible British authorities were, therefore, hesitating to accuse formally the deportees at Malta. On the contrary, they were contemplating their release as soon as possible. Thus, Mr. Winston S. Churchill, the Secretary of State for War, proposed to the Cabinet on July 19th, 1920, the release of Turkish prisoners at Malta "at the first convenient opportunity". (2) Upon this, the question of Turkish prisoners at Malta was discussed, for the first time, at the British Cabinet. At the same time the Law Officers of the Crown were consulted on the subject. The Law Officers informed the Cabinet by a memorandum dated 4th August 1920 that they were dealing only with few Turkish deportees accused of ill-treatment of British prisoners of war. No material or evidence ever existed about alleged Armenian massacre. Therefore, the Law Officers of the Crown abstained from accusing anyone of Turkish deportees of such a crime. (3) On August 4th, 1920, the British Cabinet decided that "The list of the deportees be carefully revised by the Attorney General with a view to selecting the names of those it was proposed to prosecute, so that those against whom no proceedings were contemplated should be released at the first convenient opportunity." (4) And the Attorney General wrote to the Foreign Office that the "British High Commissioner at Istanbul should be asked to prepare the evidence against those interned Turks whom he recommends for prosecution on charge of cruelty to native Christians. " (5) The new British High Commissioner at Istanbul Sir H. Rumbold replied "that none of allied, associated and neutral Powers had been asked to supply any information, that very few witnesses were available and that Armenian Patriarchate had been the main channel through which information had been obtained. He said: "Under these circumstances the Prosecution will find itself under grave disadvantages." Further he added: "The American government in particular, is doubtless in possession of a large amount of documentary information..." (6) His colleague at the High Commission, Sir Harry Lamb was more precise and wrote: "No one of the deportees was arrested on any evidence in the legal sense. "The whole case of the deportees is not satisfactory... "There are no dossiers in any legal sense. In many cases we have statements by Armenians of differing values... "The Americans must be in possession of a mass of invaluable material..." (7) To sum up, there was no evidence at all to prove that such a crime as alleged "Armenian massacre" was ever committed in Turkey. Therefore it was impossible to produce any dossier in the legal sense against anyone of Turkish deportees at Malta. And the Law Officer of the Crown and H.M. Attorney General refused to involve themselves with the alleged case of "Armenian massacre" and he also carefully avoided to pronounce the word "massacre" which was so freely used by allied war-time propaganda machine and still uttered by some politicians as well as by few members of the British Foreign Office. "From the political point of view it is very desirable that these people (i.e. Turkish deportees) should be brought to trial" insisted one member of the British Foreign Office. And they decided to ask the assistance of the State Department. On March 31st, 1921, Lord Curzon telegraphed to Sir A. Gedes, the British Ambassador in Washington, the following: "There are in hands of His Majesty’s Government at Malta a number of Turks arrested for alleged complicity in the Armenian massacre. "There is considerable difficulty in establishing proofs of guilt... "Please ascertain if United States Government are in possession of any evidence that would be of value for purposes of prosecution." (8) A member of the British Embassy in Washington visited the State Department on July 12th, 1921, and he was permitted to see a selection of reports from American Consuls on the subject of Armenian question. The Embassy returned the following reply: "I regret to inform Your Lordship that there was nothing therein [in American archives] which could be used as evidence against the Turks who are being detained for trial at Malta. The reports seen... made mention of only two names of the Turkish officials in question and in these case were confined to personal opinions of these officials on the part of the writer, no concrete facts being given which could constitute satisfactory incriminating evidence. "I have the honour to add that officials at the Department of State expressed the wish that no information supplied by them in this connection should be employed in a court of law. "Having regard to this stipulation and the fact that the reports in the possession of the Department of State do not appear in any case to contain evidence against these Turks... I fear that nothing is to be hoped from addressing any further enquiries to the United States Government in this matter." (9) It was a disappointing result for some officials of British Foreign Office. One of them, Mr. W.S. Edmonds, minuted: "It never seemed very likely that we should be able to obtain evidence from Washington. We are now waiting for the Attorney General’s opinion..." Some obstinate British officials were still insisting for prosecution of innocent Turkish detainees accused of imaginary "Armenian massacre". In view of lack of evidence in legal sense they decided to use political argument. The Foreign Office wrote to H.M. Procurator General on May 31st, 1921, that: "From political point of view, it is highly desirable that proceedings should take place against all of these persons... on the other hand, it is equally desirable to avoid initiating any proceedings which might be expected to prove abortive. In these circumstances, His Lordship (Lord Curzon) would be very grateful if the Attorney-General would be so good to favour him with an opinion..." (10) The Attorney-General’s Department returned the following reply; "...It seems improbable that the charges made against the accused will be capable of legal proof in a Court of Law. "Until more precise information is available as to the nature of the evidence which will be forthcoming at the trials, the Attorney-General does not feel that he is in a position to express any opinion as to the prospect of success in any of the cases submitted for his consideration." (11) Upon the receipt of this reply, Mr. W.S. Edmonds minuted again: "From this letter it appears that the changes of obtaining convictions are almost nil... It is regrettable that the Turks have confined as long without charges being formulated against them..." (12) From now on, the Turkish detainees at Malta were not considered as "offenders" for prosecution, but rather as "hostages" for exchange against British prisoners in Anatolia. Sir H. Rumbold, the High Commissioner in Istanbul, wrote: "Failing the possibility of obtaining proper evidence against these Turks which would satisfy a British Court of Law, we would seem to be continuing an act of technical injustice in further detaining the Turks in question. In order, therefore, to avoid as far as possible losing face, in this matter, I consider that all the Turks... should be made available for exchange purposes." (13) And then, all Turkish deportees at Malta, embarked on board HMS "Chrisanremum" and RFA "Montenal" on afternoon of the 25th October, 1921, arrived at Inobolu on October 31st, and landed safely on Turkish soil. All Turkish deportees were released and repatriated without being brought before a Tribunal. On the other hand, all British prisoners in Anatolia who were handed over to their authorities reached Istanbul on November 2nd. The episode of the deportees of Malta thus ended. In conclusion, one can say that these prominent Turks, accused of Armenian persecution, were arrested and deported without any serious investigation. There was, from the very beginning, a great deal of doubts whether the accused were in fact guilty or not. From political point of view, it was "highly desirable" for the British Government that at least some of these deportees should be brought to trial. The British Foreign Office has left no stone unturned in order to prove that an "Armenian massacre" actually took place in Turkey, and consequently some of these detainees were guilty. But all efforts in this connection ended with a complete failure. There was no evidence, no witness, no dossier, and no proof. The Armenian Patriarchate in Istanbul furnished nothing serious. The Ottoman capital city Istanbul was under allied occupation and all Ottoman State archives were there easily accessible to the British authorities. The Ottoman government was very docile and cooperative. Yet the British High Commission in Istanbul was unable to forward to London any evidence in legal sense. There was nothing in British archives which could be used as evidence against the Turkish detainees. The American State Department was unable to assist the British Government with evidence against these Turks. It is safe, therefore, to say that the alleged "Armenian massacre" was nothing but an imaginary product of a ruthless war-time propaganda campaign carried out against the Turks. What actually took place in Turkey during World War I was not a "massacre" but a displacement of population. The Armenian minority in eastern Turkey revolted against the Ottoman State at a most critical time in modern Turkish history. In April 1915, the Russian armies launched an offensive against Van, in the east, and the Allied troops landed on Gallipoli peninsula, in the west. At that critical moment, Armenian bands were fighting against the Turks, together with invading Russian armies. The Ottoman Government then decided in May 1915 to remove insurgent Armenian minority from war zone to the Syrian province of the Empire. According to Boghos Noubar, the President of Armenian National Delegation at Paris, some 6 to 700.000 people were deported from Anatolia. (14) Thousands of Armenians perished during those years of war, food shortages, famine and large-scale plague; Turkish casualties in the same period being estimated much more higher. The Armenian casualties were first misrepresented and distorted by vindictive Armenian nationalist leaders. Then Allied Intelligence services, spread stories of imaginary "massacre", for the sake of their own purposes. The Prime Minister of former Armenian Republic in Transcaucasia, Howhannes Katchaznouni, wrote the following: "In the fall of 1914 Armenian volunteer bands organised themselves and fought against the Turks because they could not refrain themselves fighting. This was an inevitable result of a psychology on which the Armenian people nourished itself during an entire generation... "We had created a dense atmosphere of illusion in our minds. We had implanted our own desire into the minds of others; we had lost our sense of reality and carried away with our dreams. (15) 1 Public Record Office, London, FO 371/4174/136069 : De Rebeck to Lord Curzon, No. 1722/R/1315, of 21.9.1919 2 PRO-FO 371/5090 and C.P. 1649: Memorandum by the S.of S. For War on Position of Turkish prisoners interned at Malta, dated 19.7.1920 3 PRO-FO 371/5090/E.9934 (C.P.1770): Memorandum by Law Afficers of the Corwn dated 4th August 1920 and signed by Gordon Hewart and Ernest M.Pollock. 4 PRO-FO 371/5090/E.9934: Cabinet Oficer to Lord Curzon of 12.8.1929 5 PRO-FO 371/6499/E.1801: Law Officeres to Foreign Office of 8.2.1921 6 PRO-FO 371/6500/E.3557: Sir H.Rumbold to Lord Curzon, No. 277 of 16th March, 1921 7 PRO-FO 371/6500/E.3554: Inclosure, minutes by Sir H.Lamb, dossier Veli Nedjdet 8 PRO-FO 371/6500/E.3552: Curzon to Geddes. Tel No 176 of 31.3.1921 9 PRO-FO 371/6504/E.8515: Craigie, British Charge d’ Afaires at Washington, to lord Curzon, No.722 of July 13, 1921 10 PRO-FO 371/6502/E.5845: Lancelot Oliphant (Foreign Ofice) to Mr. Woods (Procurator-General’s Department), May 31st, 1921 11 PRO-FO 371/6504/E.8745: Procurator-General’s Department to the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, 29.7.1921 12 Ibidem : Minutes by Mr. Edmonds of 3.8.1921 13 PRO-FO 371/6504/E.10023 14 Archives des Affaires Etrangeres de France, Serie levant 1918-1929, Sous-Serie Armenie, Vol. 2, folio 47: Boghos Noubar a M. Gout, MAE, lettre datee du 11 Decembre 1918. 15 Hovhannes Katchaznouni, The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnagtzoutiun) Has Nathing to do Any More, New York: 1955, pp. 5-7 They point out this as a reason for Britains stance to avoid the term and recognition. - Turkey punished many of its officers who killed Armenians during forced emigrations. However, none of these are enough to change the agonizing reality. There were officers who ordered directly the execution of Armenians, many survivors tell similar stories, interestingly, these massive killings are not done by the soldiers mostly, Kurdish tribes of the Era were in charge to do this in return of the lands what are left from Armenians. More interestingly, they say there is a German effect somehow during this massive killings. There is this: http://hsozkult.geschichte.hu-berlin.de/rezensionen/342.pdf and these http://www.dw.de/armenian-genocide-german-guilt/a-18298891 // Many conspiracy theorists say Germany is now funding those lobbies against Turkey to cause illusion to hide this LOL. After the genocide, there is another process starts with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nemesis and ends with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Secret_Army_for_the_Liberation_of_Armenia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_by_ASALA which may hurt Armenian governments a bit, they say it has funded this organisation, but however they say Turks also did the same. It gets deeper and deeper when you google it, massive killings, graves, assassinations, terrorist attacks, denials... In my opinion, Turkey should build a huge memorial and instead of closing borders, be a strong ally to Armenia, with a formal apology for the crimes of their ancestors. And Armenia should also apology for their ancestors who supported Russia in World War 1 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_territorial_claims_against_Turkey - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus_Campaign - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_volunteer_units) and for terrorist attacks. But these will never happen. Turkey would lose Azerbaijan as an ally for example, if they become allies. | ||
lord_nibbler
Germany591 Posts
On April 25 2015 01:56 lastpuritan wrote: I am sure they will start right after Washington finished its memorial to the North Vietnamese and Iraq's civilians... In my opinion, Turkey should build a huge memorial and instead of closing borders, be a strong ally to Armenia, with a formal apology for the crimes of their ancestors. ![]() | ||
always_winter
United States195 Posts
On April 25 2015 02:07 lord_nibbler wrote: I am sure they will start right after Washington finished its memorial to the North Vietnamese and Iraq's civilians... ![]() Is the Mars mission still accepting applicants? I'm so ready to find a new planet, albeit one infinity less beautiful, but infinitely more void of petty squabbling between the ignorant and stupid. | ||
RapidTiger
59 Posts
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/apr/24/hsbc-warns-it-could-leave-uk-over-eu-referendum-uncertainty HSBC warns of economic risks of UK pulling out of Europe | ||
Yuljan
2196 Posts
On April 25 2015 00:32 Simberto wrote: It is a well known psychological fact that people tend to like other people more if they have contact with them. If you are around muslims all the time and they turn out to be people just like everyone else, they are no longer the scary outside force that tries to take your jobs. If you barely meet any, they are strange and foreign and scary. Untrue. I grew up with muslims. Most of my friends are muslims and i spend 6 months living in Turkey. There I realized how harmful Islam is and what happens when muslims get any kind of power in a society. The changes since my trip have been horrible. Its a completely different country now thank to Erdogan and his islamist allies. I came to realize that Islam has to be opposed in any way possible. | ||
phil.ipp
Austria1067 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
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RvB
Netherlands6192 Posts
On April 26 2015 18:41 Yuljan wrote: Untrue. I grew up with muslims. Most of my friends are muslims and i spend 6 months living in Turkey. There I realized how harmful Islam is and what happens when muslims get any kind of power in a society. The changes since my trip have been horrible. Its a completely different country now thank to Erdogan and his islamist allies. I came to realize that Islam has to be opposed in any way possible. Erdogan is nuts in more ways than just his islamism though. I mean the guy named an airpoirt after himself. | ||
Yuljan
2196 Posts
On April 26 2015 19:10 phil.ipp wrote: omfg, you are telling us more about yourself than about islam or muslims, i hope you know that. so? Naturally I talk about myself. The closer I grew to muslims the more I opposed them, which is in contrast to the statement provided by Simberto. This might be only my personal experience as a random outlier but I do not believe this is the case as my few is supported by quite a few people living/fleeing muslim countries. I do have to admit that I am not a fan of any religion though. | ||
Noizhende
Austria328 Posts
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
i too will say that it is unfortunate that religion afflicts certain people so that they smuggle stone age morality into society through their religiosity, and this applies to all religions and quasi-religions. but the conclusion one draws from this is not necessarily anti-religion-having. since there are religious people with perfectlly fine ethical thinking both in terms of substantve values and also in method of reflection. the proper conclusion to draw from opposition to religion in general due to social/moral consequence is the recognition of a proper second order theory of religion. you can be religious while understanding that what you are practicing is a set of cultural practices or self hypnotism, but never "truth." | ||
xM(Z
Romania5277 Posts
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Noizhende
Austria328 Posts
On April 26 2015 19:54 oneofthem wrote: the proper conclusion to draw from opposition to religion in general due to social/moral consequence is the recognition of a proper second order theory of religion. you can be religious while understanding that what you are practicing is a set of cultural practices or self hypnotism, but never "truth." yes, but this undermines most religious views, you try to make religion scientific, logical, that's exactly the opposite of what religious people seek, i think. edit: sry for my grammar | ||
xM(Z
Romania5277 Posts
On April 26 2015 20:36 oneofthem wrote: was talking about group identity in general. still, you're on the same boat on this. Yuljan blames/holds responsible the people for choosing(?) to be muslims and/or supporting islam. you blame the people for not being smarter than <...>. the difference here is that he goes one step further towards doing something about it while you just sit there and hope people will enlighten themselves somehow. | ||
oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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xM(Z
Romania5277 Posts
let's say you correctly identified the problem. give a solution and how should it be applied. the problem being = having people believe in this: you can be religious while understanding that what you are practicing is a set of cultural practices or self hypnotism, but never "truth." | ||
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