• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:26
CEST 22:26
KST 05:26
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments0[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence7Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon9[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent10Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups4WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments1SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia8Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues29LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments3
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy SpeCial on The Tasteless Podcast Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments
Tourneys
SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 491 Night Drive Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around
Brood War
General
[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence Diplomacy, Cosmonarchy Edition BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion ASL20 General Discussion
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro16 Group D [ASL20] Ro16 Group C [Megathread] Daily Proleagues SC4ALL $1,500 Open Bracket LAN
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Borderlands 3
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Big Programming Thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Personality of a Spender…
TrAiDoS
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1229 users

European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 111

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
Prev 1 109 110 111 112 113 1415 Next
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
sixfour
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
England11061 Posts
April 24 2015 10:38 GMT
#2201
so is there no uk election thread yet? i see the uk politics thread hasn't been posted in for a month
p: stats, horang2, free, jangbi z: soulkey, zero, shine, hydra t: leta, hiya, sea
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-24 11:53:21
April 24 2015 10:59 GMT
#2202
The thing with immigration is that it is used to lower unqualified wage and create unemployment. That's just a fact, and I'm not sure a Swiss can understand this - immigration is switzerland is not comparable and consist of a huge part of qualified french and german workers. I oftentime go in Switzerland see some friends, I struggle to see any african people, to a point that it freaks me out.
In Paris, you just have to go to a big train station such as Montparnasse and wait till the end of the day. At 1 AM, you'll see an army of black people entering the trains and cleaning everything. It is a shame, and people who refuse to acknowledge that fact are just putting their hands on their eyes. In southern France, in agricultural fields, farmers used to employ northern africans workers and students for the seasonal harvest, but with french contract, now we employ romanian workers with romanian contract ! Even for old immigrants, economic immigration create a loss.
And it's true that we should not mix political immigration and economic immigration, but right now asylums are at an all time low (in France at least, not sure about the rest of europe). Economic immigration is just plain bad, political immigration should be defended and it should be an honnor to welcome people. But which country in europe welcomed Snowden ? Russia lol.

Stupid immigration policy completly transformed the social question in the entire southern europe. It's now a question of race more than class. Just go in worker class neighborhoods and you'll see 75 % black and arabs. Imo that's a shame, and the main reason as to why it's that way is that we refused to think about immigration at all, believed they were "economically beneficial" so let the market do everything, and never created any infrastructures to welcome them in dignity and at the same time prevent urban segregation.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6231 Posts
April 24 2015 11:15 GMT
#2203
On April 24 2015 19:38 sixfour wrote:
so is there no uk election thread yet? i see the uk politics thread hasn't been posted in for a month

post it here, the UK is in europe as well .

There's really not that much going on though except for labour and the tory's being very close to eachother and both winning depending in different polls.

And Cameron dodging the 2nd debate. What a damned coward.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10763 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-24 11:39:51
April 24 2015 11:19 GMT
#2204
I know that Switzerland is not comparable to france in this regard... But I imagine that danemark/scandinavia is pretty comparable?
France is another topic because of your colonial history... I don't know any country in europe that has as many africans/arrabs as france (or even comes close to it?) and it really stuck out to me during my 3 month stay there (and that was in La Rochelle, i doubt that place had, for French standards, a high amount of people with african roots).

But about the cleaning crews... Yeah, in switzerland these are mainly people from eastern europe, former yugoslavia, portugal and turks.
Basically our entire unskilled (or lowskilled) Labor sector is ex-yugoslavia, portugese and turkish... And i share your feelings about this...
What switzerland did manage pretty good was not "allowing" pure Immigrant neighbourhoods to become a thing (mostly). Sure there are some, but i don't know if this was due to smart policy or just luck with the exisiting settlement structure of switzerland.
Ghostcom
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark4782 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-24 11:29:23
April 24 2015 11:20 GMT
#2205
Just 2 comments as I don't see any major points of disagreement between us Velr.

  • 11% is indeed not outrageous, but considering the burden those 11% inflicts upon the other 89% we obviously need to figure out where it all goes wrong. (I know nothing of the immigration system in Switzerland so can't really comment on the comparative difficulty of immigrating)
  • 3.rd generation are not much better off than 2.nd generation when it comes to education - they are also at 28% (allegedly women are better off than men but I haven't found 3.rd generation numbers stratified by gender).


I think you are fairly well off in Switzerland if transportation is truly the biggest issue you have with immigration

On April 24 2015 19:28 warding wrote:
IMO the Danish system is rigged against any immigrants. Settling yourself in Denmark as a poor immigrant is virtually impossible. For starters, you need a residence and rents are insanely high and usually require 6 rents of downpayment to begin with. Due to high taxes and the high de facto minimum wages (avg $20), it's extraordinarily difficult for a low-skilled worker to find work. Also, to get those educational subsidies you do need Danish citizenship (even though EU citizens also have a right to it under EU law, they don't currently get it).

Also, living expenses in Copenhagen are waaaay higher than in Germany. Copenhagen is the most expensive city in mainland Europe. Part of it is the dysfunctional housing/rental market (which may be a strategy to keep immigrants out, in that case good job), part of it is lack of low-skilled immigrants working in hospitality and services.


The system is definitely not rigged as that implies some sort of underlying scheme to keep immigrants out which involves all Copenhageners willingly paying a high rent just to do so. Let us put the tinfoil hat away...

Why do you think Denmark is obliged to welcome unskilled immigrants? We have almost zero need for them as our entire industry is not reliant on unskilled labor - that is also why there are no jobs for them. If we allowed them to freely immigrate we would simply set them up for failure. I don't understand your argument concerning the high tax and high minimum wage, so I would appreciate it if you could expand on that part. For now my only comment to that part is that I fail to see why we should alter what has made the Danish society one of the most successful welfare states in the world.

Off the top of my head I know of at least 5 students from Europe who all receive the educational subsidy, so I'm going to have to call bullshit on that one.

There are other cities in Denmark than Copenhagen. You can find very cheap housing within 1 hour of transportation to Copenhagen. I also still fail to see why low-skilled immigrants would lower the living expenses overall and would ask for you to expand on that part as well.
phil.ipp
Profile Joined May 2010
Austria1067 Posts
April 24 2015 11:38 GMT
#2206
its stupid to talk about europe immigration in general, when talking about the syrian crisis, they dont want to live in europe, they just dont want to die.

if someone runs for his life and screams for help, handing him a sheet to fill out his educational background, before you decide to help is just inhuman.

i think you can do better.
if the only solutions to that crisis you can think of are,

integrating millions of war refugees into our society to a point so that they can live here forever

OR sending them to die

then i really question your usefulness to our european society.

Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10763 Posts
April 24 2015 11:48 GMT
#2207
And we stopped talking about the syrian crysis some time ago?
phil.ipp
Profile Joined May 2010
Austria1067 Posts
April 24 2015 11:56 GMT
#2208
On April 24 2015 20:48 Velr wrote:
And we stopped talking about the syrian crysis some time ago?


lol no, that was actually the start of the discussion

but then always the same happens

my country fucked up its immigration policys over the last decades, so now im angry, thats why we have to stop right now, thats really bad luck that syrian war is happening just as im getting angry at immigrants living here so there is no other option to send everyone back to die.

Ghostcom
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark4782 Posts
April 24 2015 11:56 GMT
#2209
On April 24 2015 20:38 phil.ipp wrote:
its stupid to talk about europe immigration in general, when talking about the syrian crisis, they dont want to live in europe, they just dont want to die.

if someone runs for his life and screams for help, handing him a sheet to fill out his educational background, before you decide to help is just inhuman.

i think you can do better.
if the only solutions to that crisis you can think of are,

integrating millions of war refugees into our society to a point so that they can live here forever

OR sending them to die

then i really question your usefulness to our european society.



IMMIGRANTS ARE NOT REFUGEES!!!
phil.ipp
Profile Joined May 2010
Austria1067 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-24 12:16:06
April 24 2015 12:14 GMT
#2210
yeah so lets stop talking about german, denmark, or whatever country, immigration policies.

lets talk about the thing that goes since days through our media that thousands of war refugees come to europe cause the war gets worse and what should be done about it.

thats something that should matter to every european

if uneducated immigrants living in denmark cities, im sure it matters to some, but not really the big topic that hangs over europe now.

and its very telling, that there were like 3 posts on the syrian crisis until it derailed into: the muslims in my country destroy my society.
Ghostcom
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark4782 Posts
April 24 2015 12:26 GMT
#2211
Telling of what?

And what do you propose to do about the issue?
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10763 Posts
April 24 2015 12:35 GMT
#2212
Because most here just agree that refugees should be helped?

Whats there to discuss?
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11554 Posts
April 24 2015 13:13 GMT
#2213
Exactly. Syria is a war-torn shithole of a country, and it is ethically indefensible to send people who escaped that monstrosity back there.
maartendq
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Belgium3115 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-24 13:45:11
April 24 2015 13:30 GMT
#2214
On April 24 2015 21:14 phil.ipp wrote:
yeah so lets stop talking about german, denmark, or whatever country, immigration policies.

lets talk about the thing that goes since days through our media that thousands of war refugees come to europe cause the war gets worse and what should be done about it.

thats something that should matter to every european

if uneducated immigrants living in denmark cities, im sure it matters to some, but not really the big topic that hangs over europe now.

and its very telling, that there were like 3 posts on the syrian crisis until it derailed into: the muslims in my country destroy my society.

I can imagine that it is a big topic in French cities like Paris and Marseille, which already have banlieus filled with unemployed and poor uneducated or undereducated youths from remarkably similar backgrounds and origins. Those places are tinderboxes that have exploded before.

Personally I don't see the point in letting all sorts of migrants (refugees, economic migrants, ... ) in if we are not prepared to invest in them. I'd actually propose offer them or force them to enroll in affordable or free education and language courses, with intermediary tests that determine whether their visas will be prolonged or not. Their education levels should in the end be equal to a secundary education degree, and their language level equal to C1. Of course this would mean that we also offer them shelter (preferably far away of existing ghettos) and a source of income. What we do not need, however, is a proverbial army of unskilled, undereducated newcomers who are just given a visa but not a single bit of guidance. Europe already has a surplus of unskilled and unemployed labour. Those people will await a life of poverty and misery over here.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10763 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-24 13:46:02
April 24 2015 13:45 GMT
#2215
The Thing is... It is allready really hard for non EU-Citizens to get a permanent visa for Europe, let alone getting one whiteout allready having a Job (thats basically impossible?).
This is more a French Problem due to its ties with the former colonies.

The "Problems" atm are Refugees, which aren't really a problem if politicans would have the balls to just finally do something abou tit (and ignore the outcries of the ultra far right assholes that seem to scare them from doing what is just basic decency).

The other problem are former immigrants and their families which are/were "hurt" by bad or non existant Integration policies since the end of WW2...

"New" Immigration is damn near a non-issue (at least if your ok with movements within the eu)... Its just one that populist parties/politicians can exploit easily.
lord_nibbler
Profile Joined March 2004
Germany591 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-24 14:04:10
April 24 2015 14:04 GMT
#2216
On April 24 2015 22:45 Velr wrote:
"New" Immigration is damn near a non-issue (at least if your ok with movements within the eu)... Its just one that populist parties/politicians can exploit easily.
If only that was the case.
I don't know how it is in other countries, but here in Germany the farther away from a big city you go, the stronger the sentiment of "not in my backyard" gets. With anything really.
Try opening an asylum seeker hostel or a rehabilitation center or a psychiatric clinic in a small town or village and all hell breaks loose. Suddenly all those upstanding citizens fight tooth and nail against the very thing they proudly 'supported" beforehand.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10763 Posts
April 24 2015 14:24 GMT
#2217
Yep, same thing tends happens here... And its kinda sad.

On the other Hand... Why we would build a refugee camp for 200 People in a village with 400 inhabitants is also beyond me and i kinda understand the resistance by the locals in these "extreme" cases.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-24 15:12:36
April 24 2015 15:09 GMT
#2218
On April 24 2015 23:04 lord_nibbler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2015 22:45 Velr wrote:
"New" Immigration is damn near a non-issue (at least if your ok with movements within the eu)... Its just one that populist parties/politicians can exploit easily.
If only that was the case.
I don't know how it is in other countries, but here in Germany the farther away from a big city you go, the stronger the sentiment of "not in my backyard" gets. With anything really.
Try opening an asylum seeker hostel or a rehabilitation center or a psychiatric clinic in a small town or village and all hell breaks loose. Suddenly all those upstanding citizens fight tooth and nail against the very thing they proudly 'supported" beforehand.


Because people are afraid of what they don't know. It's not rational. 98% of Muslims live in West Germany, and still people in Dresden are protesting the 'Islamization' of their city. Here in Cologne we have tons of Muslims and most of them are very pleasant people, no one cares. Sure there's the occasional debate about a mosque or something but overall everybody has just accepted that demographics change.
xM(Z
Profile Joined November 2006
Romania5281 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-24 15:17:39
April 24 2015 15:14 GMT
#2219
accepting/tolerating something has nothing to do with being fine with it.
your post ... it looks like you seem to believe that people are embracing the change and not just go along with it for w/e reasons.
And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
April 24 2015 15:21 GMT
#2220
Immigration and integration will always create conflict, that's not necessarily a bad thing. At least it's better than a society of sedentary 80 year old's. When cultural and political change occurs there's always a certain percentage of the population that you'll have to drag along.
Prev 1 109 110 111 112 113 1415 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 34m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
UpATreeSC 130
ProTech89
JuggernautJason88
ForJumy 38
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 570
Mini 320
Dewaltoss 160
Backho 63
Dota 2
Fuzer 230
Counter-Strike
pashabiceps1034
Stewie2K421
Super Smash Bros
PPMD33
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu467
Other Games
summit1g5345
Grubby4049
FrodaN1141
Beastyqt527
Hui .228
ToD188
C9.Mang0116
Trikslyr71
NeuroSwarm70
Nathanias8
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 12
• Dystopia_ 2
• intothetv
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 33
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3776
• masondota21480
League of Legends
• TFBlade761
Other Games
• imaqtpie1002
• WagamamaTV342
• Shiphtur243
Upcoming Events
OSC
2h 34m
PiGosaur Monday
3h 34m
LiuLi Cup
14h 34m
OSC
22h 34m
RSL Revival
1d 13h
Maru vs Reynor
Cure vs TriGGeR
The PondCast
1d 16h
RSL Revival
2 days
Zoun vs Classic
Korean StarCraft League
3 days
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
[ Show More ]
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Online Event
4 days
Wardi Open
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-09-10
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL World Championship of Poland 2025
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL 21 Team A
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
EC S1
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.