|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On April 24 2015 06:37 Nyxisto wrote:
again, the overwhelming majority of asylum applications are already being rejected. What you're afraid of isn't happening.
Of course thats the major problem. They get rejected and nothing happens because they are already here they stay.
End of 2013 we had 130000 rejected persons that did not leave Germany. This grew to 145000 in August 2014 (Just googled quickly so please excuse that Bild is the source.).
|
On April 24 2015 06:43 Ghostcom wrote:
So in conclusion, the people who are accepted as immigrants today are better qualified than the domestic population (possibly because you know, a country can actually control who they want as immigrants and say no to those they don't want i.e. unqualified labor), but the average German immigrant is not - he is in fact at the very bottom of the social ladder.
Talk about making shit up...
EDIT: Why are we even discussing immigrants? I thought the issue was refugees? If not your prior number of 500.000 needs to be adjusted.
Yes, and that's what matters in a discussion about current immigration policies. The 'third generation immigrants' have a German passport, they're German citizens. Immigrants currently coming to our country are sufficiently qualified.
That kids whose parents were already born here are not well integrated is a social issue, not a question of immigration.
|
On April 24 2015 06:54 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2015 06:43 Ghostcom wrote:
So in conclusion, the people who are accepted as immigrants today are better qualified than the domestic population (possibly because you know, a country can actually control who they want as immigrants and say no to those they don't want i.e. unqualified labor), but the average German immigrant is not - he is in fact at the very bottom of the social ladder.
Talk about making shit up...
EDIT: Why are we even discussing immigrants? I thought the issue was refugees? If not your prior number of 500.000 needs to be adjusted. Yes, and that's what matters in a discussion about current immigration policies. The 'third generation immigrants' have a German passport, they're German citizens. Immigrants currently coming to our country are sufficiently qualified.
No. No it is not. That is like saying that only current income is important when it comes to economics, but the huge debt you have accumulated doesn't matter (even though the interest might be more than your current income).
However, if this is your starting point I'll simply consider myself lucky that I live in Denmark and not in Germany and spend my night in a better way than continuing this. Goodnight.
EDIT: That it is going so poorly for the third generation is probably because you failed at integrating the first generation. This is really not rocket science.
|
The fact that our population with Turkish roots has it worse than some other demographics has a lot to do with the fact that we simply needed a lot of hands after we were busy turning Europe, including our own country into a pile of debris. Working class immigration was welcomed and needed, it's highly hypocritical to discuss this out of context and it has very little to do with the situation today.
|
Why should other human beings be denied the chance to earn a honest living in Europe just because they weren't born here? Especially when it's near impossible to do so if you happen to have the misfortune of being born in places like Syria, Libya, DR Congo, Haiti, etc?
PS: I'm semi-living in Denmark atm and I fail to see how not having as much immigration as Germany is a good thing. For one, labor costs are so high that living expenses in Copenhagen are insane.
|
Also a lot of refugees are fairly well educated,being a refugee doesn't mean that you have no skills. The biggest hindrance is the language barrier. That all of them or a majority are a burden on society or just turn into gangs roaming the streets is just ridiculous.
|
On April 24 2015 08:23 warding wrote:
Why should other human beings be denied the chance to earn a honest living in Europe just because they weren't born here? Especially when it's near impossible to do so if you happen to have the misfortune of being born in places like Syria, Libya, DR Congo, Haiti, etc?
PS: I'm semi-living in Denmark atm and I fail to see how not having as much immigration as Germany is a good thing. For one, labor costs are so high that living expenses in Copenhagen are insane.
Because.. "they takk r jaaaabs"... Or something like this.
Which is not actually true but simple minds need simple solutions.
If living costs are high cause of high labour costs at the place.... Thats not actually an Issue (aside from tourism)? By that logic Switzerland would be a terrible place to live, but when you have a Job here the living costs are no issue anymore (at least not more than anywhere else).
Btw: The World Happiness Reports also suggests that cost of living is not an issue at all... Savety, Trust in the community/state (+actual trustowrthyness of these) and Health are.
|
Anyone following the Armenian Genocide anniversary? From the world leaders only Obama refuse to acknowledge and use the word "genocide". What you think about this?
|
Zurich15325 Posts
I am both happy and disappointed in Germany's stance. In a very typically German way they try to find an awkward compromise between acknowledging it and not antagonizing Turkey. So you have the president and parliament clearly acknowledge the genocide, while the administration and the chancellor have so far dodged the term in impressively awkward usage of the German language.
Foreign minister Steinmeier:
"Man kann das, was damals geschehen ist, in dem Begriff des Völkermords zusammenfassen wollen, und ich kann die Gründe dafür und erst recht die Gefühle dazu gut verstehen"
"One can want to summarize what happened back then under the term genocide, and I can well understand rational for that and more so feelings over it."
If this sounds awkward it's because it sounds just like that in German!
|
Everytime i hear Merkel speak I wonder how anyone would happily elect that woman again and again...
|
On April 24 2015 17:14 zatic wrote:I am both happy and disappointed in Germany's stance. In a very typically German way they try to find an awkward compromise between acknowledging it and not antagonizing Turkey. So you have the president and parliament clearly acknowledge the genocide, while the administration and the chancellor have so far dodged the term in impressively awkward usage of the German language. Foreign minister Steinmeier: Show nested quote +"Man kann das, was damals geschehen ist, in dem Begriff des Völkermords zusammenfassen wollen, und ich kann die Gründe dafür und erst recht die Gefühle dazu gut verstehen" "One can want to summarize what happened back then under the term genocide, and I can well understand rational for that and more so feelings over it." If this sounds awkward it's because it sounds just like that in German!
Situation in Bulgaria is pretty similar. Bulgarian PM this morning used "mass murder of Armenians" instead of genocide, which is quite awkward too.
|
it's because ... i don't know, it would offend the jewish?. it would make their genocide less ... impactful?; it might diminish its magnitude by being put in the same category with a lesser genocide?.
view all that through a political correctness lens.
(a country like Bulgaria would probably just follow their allies in statement tones and can't really be blamed for not having one of their own. sure one can expect more but ... the right thing, doing the right thing, it's not a thing)
|
Its becaues Turkye is importnat and many countries don't want to piss them off (even more)...
How you bring the Holocaust into this... is just... mindblowing.
|
it's the first example in the word's definition pretty much everywhere:
Genocide is the systematic destruction of all or a significant part of a racial, ethnic, religious or national group. Well-known examples of genocide include the Holocaust ...
|
Yeah, example, not definition. So you still got like no argument and are just sounding antisemitic in some "the jews are behind it" tinfoil hat way?
|
you are "behind it" when you actively pursue said goal.
i don't know of any instances(and i don't think they exist) in which "the jews" made Obama not recognize the Armenian genocide ...
you're implying stuff then get offended by them. whoawww
|
Well that's because the holocaust is probably the most researched genocide in human history, and no sane person would question it happened. Turkey's stance towards the Armenian genocide is just to keep the topic buried under layers of historic dust, which is good for wannabe Sultan Erdogan.
Other prominent examples which desperately need more research are the millions of victims of soviet oppression, what the Japanese did in China and Korea, etc.
|
On April 24 2015 08:23 warding wrote:
Why should other human beings be denied the chance to earn a honest living in Europe just because they weren't born here? Especially when it's near impossible to do so if you happen to have the misfortune of being born in places like Syria, Libya, DR Congo, Haiti, etc?
PS: I'm semi-living in Denmark atm and I fail to see how not having as much immigration as Germany is a good thing. For one, labor costs are so high that living expenses in Copenhagen are insane.
My answer is going to depend entirely on whether or not we are talking about immigrants or refugees? Both you, Nyxisto and Velr ("simple mind" - seriously?) are conflating the two at will making any discussion on the subject extremely difficult. I would also encourage that we stay factual, but Nyxisto and Velr have already shown unwillingness to do so and your heavy use of pathos makes me a little weary of entering a discussion with you, but I'll give it a shot.
To sum up my argument with regards to immigrants very shortly: Because a large portion of them do not end up being a contributing member of society - and unlike Nyxisto and Velr I actually have some facts to back this up.
We are really good a statistics in Denmark (our databases are unrivaled in the world) so we know exactly how our immigrants fare compared with the rest of the population. The source is sadly only in Danish DST, but just to give you a few highlights:
- Their educational level is poor, they don't complete educations offered (which in Denmark is free of cost, you are in fact paid @1000 USD/month to study from >18 years of age)
- 44% of young immigrants do not have a job nor are they under education (for young 2.nd generation immigrants this number is 28%)
- 38% of immigrants in the ages of 16-64 are on social services - in fact 21-24% of everyone receiving "kontanthjælp" are immigrants (immigrants make up 11% of the overall population).
And then we haven't even begun to touch upon the subject of criminal behavior where immigrants also dominate the statistics. I want to be very clear about this: The reason for these poor outcomes are obviously not only the fault of the immigrants, it is largely a social issue. However, these outcomes show very clearly that integration is not going well and the immigrants are a burden to the society (mind you that I never once said "all immigrants", nor "a majority" despite Nyxisto's shameless attempt at putting words in my mouth).
PS: 1) Living expenses in Copenhagen are comparable to our peers (Portugal is not a peer - sorry  ).
2) Labor costs in Denmark have very little to do with immigration and a lot more to do with our history of unions, high educational level, and knowledge-based industry.
EDIT: Also to clarify: I do not think everyone should just close their borders. We absolutely need immigration. But we need to do it smartly for it to not be detrimental for everyone involved.
|
On April 24 2015 18:41 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2015 08:23 warding wrote:
Why should other human beings be denied the chance to earn a honest living in Europe just because they weren't born here? Especially when it's near impossible to do so if you happen to have the misfortune of being born in places like Syria, Libya, DR Congo, Haiti, etc?
PS: I'm semi-living in Denmark atm and I fail to see how not having as much immigration as Germany is a good thing. For one, labor costs are so high that living expenses in Copenhagen are insane. My answer is going to depend entirely on whether or not we are talking about immigrants or refugees? Both you, Nyxisto and Velr ("simple mind" - seriously?) are conflating the two at will making any discussion on the subject extremely difficult. I would also encourage that we stay factual, but Nyxisto and Velr have already shown unwillingness to do so and your heavy use of pathos makes me a little weary of entering a discussion with you, but I'll give it a shot. To sum up my argument with regards to immigrants very shortly: Because a large portion of them do not end up being a contributing member of society - and unlike Nyxisto and Velr I actually have some facts to back this up. We are really good a statistics in Denmark (our databases are unrivaled in the world) so we know exactly how our immigrants fare compared with the rest of the population. The source is sadly only in Danish DST, but just to give you a few highlights: - Their educational level is poor, they don't complete educations offered (which in Denmark is free of cost, you are in fact paid @1000 USD/month to study from >18 years of age)
- 44% of young immigrants do not have a job nor are they under education (for young 2.nd generation immigrants this number is 28%)
- 38% of immigrants in the ages of 16-64 are on social services - in fact 21-24% of everyone receiving "kontanthjælp" are immigrants (immigrants make up 11% of the overall population).
And then we haven't even begun to touch upon the subject of criminal behavior where immigrants also dominate the statistics. I want to be very clear about this: The reason for these poor outcomes are obviously not only the fault of the immigrants, it is largely a social issue. However, these outcomes show very clearly that integration is not going well and the immigrants are a burden to the society (mind you that I never once said "all immigrants", nor "a majority" despite Nyxisto's shameless attempt at putting words in my mouth). PS: 1) Living expenses in Copenhagen are comparable to our peers (Portugal is not even close to being a peer). 2) Labor costs in Denmark have very little to do with immigration and a lot more to do with our history of unions, high educational level, and knowledge-based industry.
I'll happy discuss Immigration with you. The Problem is that most people that are against it, constantly mix refugees with "normal" Immigration. All they see are black/brown people...
One of the main issues is that this Topic Looks a bit diffrent in just about every country and every country has another history that influences the kind of immigrants it gets.
Looking at your numbers:
11%? Thats actually not high at all? Switzerland sits at 22.X% (but becoming swiss is likely harder than becoming dane... So this number actually doesn't tell us much... But it is a perfect number for being exploited when it suits your agenda).
Second Generation immigrants not getting/profitting from your education system is imho a failure of the Integration/assimilation system. How does it look for 3d Generation? Because this is the really interesting one.
Why? In Switzerland we now know that it took about 40 years to "integrate" ITALIAN guest workers (which come from a neighbour country and actually speak one of our official languages...). I would go out on a limb and say, we should be "smart" enough to give other Immigrant groups at least the same amount of time...
And yes, immigrants with poor education are more likely to require social aid and are more likely to become criminal... Just like danes/swiss people with bad education and no income are... But a Swiss guy has to ROYALLY and kinda willingly fuck himself up to even have a chance to become truely poor. The only guys i know that made it to the very bottom were/are drug addicts. Thats because, obviously, your average swiss guy is solidly integrated (single parents also have issues here, but these normally don't start criminal careers  )...
The main Problem i see is with people not looking correctly at the numbers... Nearly 25-30% of the Swiss people vote for a Party that basically has 2 talking Points:
"EU BAD", "Immigration BAD"... While at the same time consisting mainly of farmers and industrials needing exactly said foreigners/eu citizens because switzerland has not enough people that are willing to do the cheap labour and is also lacking engineers/people with higher qualifications.
Its just an easy way to get the vote from uninformed people that are scared of the future, naturally they use it to push their own neo-liberal Agenda (which actually created the "Problem" in the first place...).
Immigration brings issues. The Swiss streets and public transport systems are getting fuller and fuller during peak hours and i feel this myself... When i started working ~16 years ago it took me 15-20 minutes to get to work. Nowaways I need 25-30 for the same distance...
But this can be solved and blaming Immigration for it is just dumb... Its our general economic success and lacking infrastrucutre investment that created this "problem" (calling it a problem feels wrong... 95% of the world would laugh at us for calling this situation a "problem").
|
IMO the Danish system is rigged against any immigrants. Settling yourself in Denmark as a poor immigrant is virtually impossible. For starters, you need a residence and rents are insanely high and usually require 6 rents of downpayment to begin with. Due to high taxes and the high de facto minimum wages (avg $20), it's extraordinarily difficult for a low-skilled worker to find work. Also, to get those educational subsidies you do need Danish citizenship (even though EU citizens also have a right to it under EU law, they don't currently get it).
Also, living expenses in Copenhagen are waaaay higher than in Germany. Copenhagen is the most expensive city in mainland Europe. Part of it is the dysfunctional housing/rental market (which may be a strategy to keep immigrants out, in that case good job), part of it is lack of low-skilled immigrants working in hospitality and services.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
