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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 09 2018 10:13 Nyxisto wrote: And concerning the Jusos, they don't have a mainstream program. I have their education brochure lying next to me. There's a pixel art Marx on the cover and the thing calls for international socialism lol. Not all hope is lost then. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
But with Gabriel kinda ruining himself... will they somehow celebrate blood brotherhood as best friends united to put him back as foreign minister? Or who will get that office? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 09 2018 22:22 mahrgell wrote: Martin Schulz will not take any office in the new German government (assuming it gets approved by the SPD base) But with Gabriel kinda ruining himself... will they somehow celebrate blood brotherhood as best friends united to put him back as foreign minister? Or who will get that office? Why did he renounce? | ||
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sharkie
Austria18397 Posts
Because otherwise the base would have punished him. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 09 2018 22:45 sharkie wrote: Because otherwise the base would have punished him. Might be that they would have, but this is not coming from within the base. From what the news say it's the SPD leadership that wants him to step down or they would have to make him step down. The reason being that he has no credibility left, neither with the base, nor with the leadership since he one-sidedly tried to declare himself foreign minister. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + "We got the best we could," says the pro-GroKo elected representative, on the left. Not a single applause. On the right, Kevin Kühnert [leader of the Jusos] goes on and explains that he is very "skeptical" about what the SPD could really do in power. Thunder of applauses. Better sharpen your arguments, Nyxisto.  By the way, if you wanted to know what the French left thinks of that...+ Show Spoiler + In Berlin, the wall between the right and the SPD has fallen once again. The "German model" has been in political crisis for 5 months. May the SPD adherents give him the coup de grâce. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
So you say, that the Juso leader defending Juso positions is getting most applause at a Juso event? WOAH! SHOCKING! This will certainly turn everything around! And why would the SPD be bothered by what Melenchon has to say? I don't think they care about his approval of their actions. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On February 09 2018 22:14 TheDwf wrote: You are such a living conundrum for me, it's really fascinating. You are member of a political party yet you don't actually believe in politics. At all. You remind me of this guy who was saying, “in democracy you should only have the choice between liberal-conservatives and social-liberals”. Near the centre, the “circle of reason”; around, hords of populists, extremists, unrealistic, irresponsible dreamers. Nice mental map. I have to understand. Is it because nazism happened that you think political passions can always lead to the dark side? Or is it some kind of protestant mentality related to predestination? Why this heavy fatalism. Not for any dramatic reason because I'm afraid of fascism or whatever, but for simple epistemic reasons. I cannot know that my political beliefs are always correct. If we take the AfD, the FDP and the CDU, then more than half of the people in this country are clearly conservative. They don't believe the same things I do. Yet we all end up with one government and I believe that in a democracy nobody should be trampled over. If they get to power I would demand the same things, don't steamroll over your opposition. If you even have the slightest doubt that you know it all, then you need to make space for opposing politics in your own worldview. Or else your society doesn't work or perpetually humiliates political opponent every four to eight years. When advocating for social transformation, you will indeed preach in the wilderness for a few years or decades before becoming “mainstream”. That's life? You claim that people don't want change. Perhaps. For now. But what about the future? I'm not opposed to change at all. And there's probably a far off future vision that you have that I would not object to. But I don't see everybody around me just as misguided, or without agency or manipulated by power. I concede that the conservative people around me genuinely believe what they believe and most of them do for probably legitimate reasons from their point of view. There is an incredible arrogance in the idea that a minority has all the answers and you just need to come from the mountaintop and explain them to all the people who don't share your view and they'll magically come around. If the status quo is really so crisis ridden as you say it is, then over medium and long term their will be social change anyway, but I'm not going to pretend to be sure about it before it has actually happened. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 10 2018 03:47 mahrgell wrote: Hm... So you say, that the Juso leader defending Juso positions is getting most applause at a Juso event? WOAH! SHOCKING! This will certainly turn everything around! First it's not me, it's the journalist reporting. Second, the first vote of the delegates was 56/44 for the GroKo, and people who were around had already noticed that pro-GroKo speeches received less applause than "let's go the opposition" discourses (the initial position of the party, expressed quite firmly at the time, before it got pressured into going back to talks). Which means that those who approve the GroKo seem more in a "meh, lesser of two evils" attitude than in a real enthusiasm. Which means that enough of them may be persuaded to do otherwise by more convinced people in a close situation after the internal campaign. And why would the SPD be bothered by what Melenchon has to say? I don't think they care about his approval of their actions. (1) Notice the "if" in my sentence... (2) No one spoke of "approval". (3) The left has an internationalist tradition and it can sometimes be interesting to have opinions from overseas, especially when facing a tough choice. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11497 Posts
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
His official statement: + Show Spoiler + "Der von mir gemeinsam mit der SPD-Parteispitze ausverhandelte Koalitionsvertrag sticht dadurch hervor, dass er in sehr vielen Bereichen das Leben der Menschen verbessern kann. Ich habe immer betont, dass – sollten wir in eine Koalition eintreten – wir das nur tun, wenn unsere sozialdemokratischen Forderungen nach Verbesserungen bei Bildung, Pflege, Rente, Arbeit und Steuer Einzug in diesen Vertrag finden. Ich bin stolz sagen zu können, dass das der Fall ist. Insbesondere ist die Neuausrichtung der Europapolitik ein großer Erfolg. Umso mehr ist es für mich von höchster Bedeutung, dass die Mitglieder der SPD beim Mitgliedervotum für diesen Vertrag stimmen, weil sie von dessen Inhalten genauso überzeugt sind, wie ich es bin. Durch die Diskussion um meine Person sehe ich ein erfolgreiches Votum allerdings gefährdet. Daher erkläre ich hiermit meinen Verzicht auf den Eintritt in die Bundesregierung und hoffe gleichzeitig inständig, dass damit die Personaldebatten innerhalb der SPD beendet sind. Wir alle machen Politik für die Menschen in diesem Land. Dazu gehört, dass meine persönlichen Ambitionen hinter den Interessen der Partei zurück stehen müssen.“ DeepL translation: + Show Spoiler + "The coalition agreement, which I negotiated with the SPD leadership, stands out for its ability to improve people's lives in many areas. I have always stressed that - if we were to join a coalition - we would only do so if our social democratic demands for improvements in education, care, pensions, work and taxation were incorporated into this Treaty. I am proud to say that is the case. In particular, the reorientation of European policy is a great success. That makes it all the more important for me that the members of the SPD vote in favour of this treaty because they are as convinced of its content as I am. However, I see the discussion about me as jeopardizing a successful vote. Therefore, I hereby declare my decision not to join the federal government and at the same time I sincerely hope that this will bring the personnel debates within the SPD to an end. We all make politics for the people of this country. This means that my personal ambitions must be behind the interests of the party." That guy leaving is a massive loss, no matter how you frame it. Maybe he's just too impulsive after all. With him out we might see people like Gabriel get more influence (again) if the GroKo is accepted. Nahles is in the same boat as well. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for the SPD to jump back to positions that actually represent what they're trying to sell but this is an incredibly dangerous game at this point in time. The left side of the spectrum brawling like that and likely going into new elections even weaker than the first time around is likely going to make things worse for at least an entire election cycle. Meanwhile this is a good representation of what all of this must look like from the perspective of Angela Merkel. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 10 2018 15:52 r.Evo wrote: His official statement: + Show Spoiler + "Der von mir gemeinsam mit der SPD-Parteispitze ausverhandelte Koalitionsvertrag sticht dadurch hervor, dass er in sehr vielen Bereichen das Leben der Menschen verbessern kann. Ich habe immer betont, dass – sollten wir in eine Koalition eintreten – wir das nur tun, wenn unsere sozialdemokratischen Forderungen nach Verbesserungen bei Bildung, Pflege, Rente, Arbeit und Steuer Einzug in diesen Vertrag finden. Ich bin stolz sagen zu können, dass das der Fall ist. Insbesondere ist die Neuausrichtung der Europapolitik ein großer Erfolg. Umso mehr ist es für mich von höchster Bedeutung, dass die Mitglieder der SPD beim Mitgliedervotum für diesen Vertrag stimmen, weil sie von dessen Inhalten genauso überzeugt sind, wie ich es bin. Durch die Diskussion um meine Person sehe ich ein erfolgreiches Votum allerdings gefährdet. Daher erkläre ich hiermit meinen Verzicht auf den Eintritt in die Bundesregierung und hoffe gleichzeitig inständig, dass damit die Personaldebatten innerhalb der SPD beendet sind. Wir alle machen Politik für die Menschen in diesem Land. Dazu gehört, dass meine persönlichen Ambitionen hinter den Interessen der Partei zurück stehen müssen.“ DeepL translation: + Show Spoiler + "The coalition agreement, which I negotiated with the SPD leadership, stands out for its ability to improve people's lives in many areas. I have always stressed that - if we were to join a coalition - we would only do so if our social democratic demands for improvements in education, care, pensions, work and taxation were incorporated into this Treaty. I am proud to say that is the case. In particular, the reorientation of European policy is a great success. That makes it all the more important for me that the members of the SPD vote in favour of this treaty because they are as convinced of its content as I am. However, I see the discussion about me as jeopardizing a successful vote. Therefore, I hereby declare my decision not to join the federal government and at the same time I sincerely hope that this will bring the personnel debates within the SPD to an end. We all make politics for the people of this country. This means that my personal ambitions must be behind the interests of the party." That guy leaving is a massive loss, no matter how you frame it. Maybe he's just too impulsive after all. With him out we might see people like Gabriel get more influence (again) if the GroKo is accepted. Nahles is in the same boat as well. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for the SPD to jump back to positions that actually represent what they're trying to sell but this is an incredibly dangerous game at this point in time. The left side of the spectrum brawling like that and likely going into new elections even weaker than the first time around is likely going to make things worse for at least an entire election cycle. Meanwhile this is a good representation of what all of this must look like from the perspective of Angela Merkel. How time flies... + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DVnUPWCUMAANrQc.jpg) | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
CDU/CSU - can barely stay together closely. Doesn't want to rule with two of the other parties (AfD, the Left), represents 33% of the votes SPD - cannot decide whether they want to govern with the CDU/CSU. Doesn't want to rule with the AfD, represents 20% of the votes AfD - don't want to rule with any other party, represents 13% of the votes FDP - don't want to rule with 3 other parties (AfD, Left, Greens), represents 11% of the votes Greens - don't want to rule with 1 other party (AfD), represents 9% of the votes The Left - don't want to rule with 3 other parties (AfD, CDU/CSU, FDP), represents 9% of the votes How the bourgeoise media represents it: CDU/CSU must rule and the SPD is to blame if no government is established. It's totally OK for the CDU/CSU to categorically exclude other parties, but if the SPD excludes the CDU/CSU based on a long, substential discussion it is casus belli with them! It's the basic problem with a democratic system that shifts the power from the parliament to the government. It stops being representative and starts to be about "who got first", "who holds >50% for the next X years". | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
FDP - don't want to rule with 3 other parties (AfD, Left, Greens), represents 11% of the votes Eh, I wouldn't put this one that way at all. From what we know the Jamaica talks mostly failed because the FDP (or more specifically Lindner) tried to push initially solved immigration talks further than the position of the CSU even intended. From my point of view that guy was expecting immediate new elections during which he can grow his party to 15%+ from AfD voters. Green/FDP isn't a no-go per se and both have decent enough personnel to figure it out. Apart from that the funny thing to me is that the people voting AfD ended up completely torpedoing their own interest by voting for a party that not just was excluded by others for legitimate reasons, but which also excluded itself from any coalition. If those votes would have went to CDU/CSU or FDP then we wouldn't even have this discussion to begin with. Every single one of these votes turned out to help the SPD (and the Greens) more than anyone else. It's a genuine shame that in the end it seems as if neither will be able to capitalize on it. The Greens are likely to not grow much from this and the SPD is stuck between a compromise and going into a new election severely weakened. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
I would also reject that the FDP has qualified personnel. They only have Lindner and they ran a completely personalised campaign, it's their biggest problem. All the old respected FDP politicians have basically died off. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 11 2018 06:44 Nyxisto wrote: Your first paragraph more or less proves BigJ's point, they intentionally bombed the talks, why else would a liberal party renegotiate a already agreed on migration position that even Bavarian conservatives are okay with. I would also reject that the FDP has qualified personnel. They only have Lindner and they ran a completely personalised campaign, it's their biggest problem. All the old respected FDP politicians have basically died off. I mean I put this intentionally in there, it is not important to the overall overall statement that I belive the media is heavily favoring the CDU and particularily unfair to the SPD. It may not be set in stone, but I see it as you write here. Intentionally bombing the negotiations or putting forward demands that you believe the other side can't match is just a way to sabotage the talks while you try and keep face. What I think you shouldn't underestimate is the personel of the FDP. It's one thing to run campaigns with fresh faces, it's another one to actually overthrow your own internal networks. Parties can change their leadership, but when they actually rule they build on the expertize and networks of high level public servants of their parties. And they are often the same faces they were 20-years ago when the party last ruled. Source? I work in the second row of all of this in Austria and see all the old zombie-FPÖ party members return. The ones the party intentionally doesn't talk about, because then the public wouldn't believe they are in for "change" instead of just getting "a piece of the cake". | ||
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sc-darkness
856 Posts
Article: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-women-rights/india-has-21-million-unwanted-girls-due-to-preference-for-sons-idUSKBN1FJ1PN | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10694 Posts
Our hard left is just horrible and likes to hate on anything european (which is fine) while protecting everything else (which makes the first statement utterly ridiculous). Seriously, the amount of leftists I know that are deeply unhappy with the main leftist parties for reasons like this is staggering. Too bad there are not many alternatives, so its just a slow drain towards the right. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
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sc-darkness
856 Posts
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