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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
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salle
Sweden5554 Posts
On July 26 2014 19:52 HeatEXTEND wrote: This should work both ways (lol) though, which sadly it often times doesn't. Yeah when political views start to be about dehumanizing people .... that's when really bad things happen. | ||
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
On July 26 2014 17:39 r.Evo wrote: I don't think that's the point that people are making who are annoyed by things like this. Want to be gay? Awesome. Same sex (non-religious) marriage? Awesome. Equal rights by all means? Awesome. We (as the western world) are already there (well, except for parts of America and Italy...). It's beating a dead horse, it's like asking to free slaves or to stop religious discrimination in the western world while gays in India get burned alive or while polyamory is still a concept that is in no shape or form accepted by any government (hell, I had arguments with gays and lesbians telling me that it should stay forbidden because it's indecent and against their cause). This whole thing has turned from an equal rights movement to one huge party once in a while and it tends to be the most "up in your face" party of any similar kind. There are no Black Pride Parades, Jewish Pride Parades or Feminist Pride Parades that tell you LOOK AT US WE'RE X AND IT'S AWESOME TO BE X; I SAID LOOK AT US AND CELEBRATE US; IF YOU DON'T YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE - simply because those groups understood that celebrating something that should be considered normal makes it more weird instead of more normal. The tip of the iceberg is a site like TL officially endorsing this, putting it above any and all possible things one could endorse. I don't recall a "Let's remember 9/11", "Let's give the horse a Martin Luther King outlook today" or "Let's do something for the First World War Centenary". Hell, the exact same case that made sodomy laws illegal in the US was used to prevent people from marrying multiple people if they so desire. No one cares despite a minority being criminalized for wanting to be happy with their loved ones. I'm all for supporting equal rights, equally. I'm just annoyed with picking one specific issue due to personal reasons and calling it "fighting for equal rights". what are you even talking about. 1. We are NOT already there. first of all, not everyone on teamliquid is from "the western world". but you are right, most users are from the us, aka a country where equal rights do not exist in many states. and equal rights also do not exist in many europe countries. germany does not has same sex marriage and does not have equal legal status of adoption. same for many other countries in europe. also, it isnt only about legal status but also about the acceptance in the society. looking at the huge anti-gay protests in france, its quite hard to justifiy that "we are already there" 2. I dont get what kind of problem you have with "picking one specific issue". like, i am not allowed to be against discriminnation in germany because people in africa are starving or what. i shouldnt support a local soup kichten because people are getting tortured in north korea. that doesnt make any sense | ||
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Kleinmuuhg
Vanuatu4091 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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salle
Sweden5554 Posts
On July 26 2014 23:48 BigFan wrote: I think what you guys are doing is great and hope you continue in the years to come as well. Are there plans for other kinds of support? Other kind of support for the LGBT(QI?) community or support of other discriminated communities? | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On July 26 2014 22:40 Paljas wrote: what are you even talking about. 1. We are NOT already there. first of all, not everyone on teamliquid is from "the western world". but you are right, most users are from the us, aka a country where equal rights do not exist in many states. and equal rights also do not exist in many europe countries. germany does not has same sex marriage and does not have equal legal status of adoption. same for many other countries in europe. also, it isnt only about legal status but also about the acceptance in the society. looking at the huge anti-gay protests in france, its quite hard to justifiy that "we are already there" Oh, please. In Germany a Registered Life Partnership aka "Lebenspartnerschaft" has nowadays effectively the same rights as married couples. Yes a non-married couple (this goes for both same-sex and opposite-sex couples) can't adopt children together. However, one of the partners can adopt a child and the other partner has to give his okay for it. Add in a document that gives the non-adopting partner all the rights associated with the adopting partner and it's effectively the same. A child that gets adopted this way has the same rights and privileges that a biological child of a person that gets remarried has. The partners have the same benefits as a married couple including alimony, pensions and all the other things. They even have to go through the exact same procedure as a regularly married couple has to if they'd like to split. France: In June 2011, an Ifop poll found that 63% of respondents were in favour of same-sex marriage, while 58% supported adoption rights for same-sex couples. As for Europe in general Italy is basically the only western country without a pro-LGBT stance. Acceptance in society? Most 60+ year olds I know treat homosexuality basically like they'd treat someone who just told them they want to make a living as a painter. "If you really want to it's alright. / Are you sure that's what you want to do? / That means I'll never have grandkids?!" is as far as it gets. The vast, vast majority isn't getting kicked out of their homes for being gay, they're not being beaten up, they're not getting cut out of someones will. That's as fucking awesome as it gets for a movement that's not more than 10-15 years old. 2. I dont get what kind of problem you have with "picking one specific issue". like, i am not allowed to be against discriminnation in germany because people in africa are starving or what. i shouldnt support a local soup kichten because people are getting tortured in north korea. that doesnt make any sense The issue is that when you put up a flag at your house that says "I SUPPORT LOCAL SOUP KITCHENS" and people celebrate you for fighting world hunger something is wrong because you're simply not doing that. It's hypocritical for any company to throw out some banners and then have fans proclaim they're doing an awesome job at supporting a cause. Provide a forum people feel safe in, support people who want to make sure that instead of just having the same rights they're allowed to also call it marriage in a country like Germany. Point fingers at glaringly similar issues with basically zero governmental or public support (once again, polyamory is the same thing with a different background that no one cares about). Those are all awesome things people can support with money and actions. Putting a flag up isn't. It's a really cool baby step but calling it any more than that isn't appropriate. Once more, I'm completely happy if TL wants to be political in any shape or form, I'm completely happy if TL wants to push for equal rights for everyone in places where those rights aren't supported. I just firmly believe that putting up a banner and calling it a day is a horrible way to go about it. It's completely non-committal and not more or less than a nice gesture. | ||
CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On July 27 2014 01:10 r.Evo wrote: It's completely non-committal and not more or less than a nice gesture. And...is there a problem with this? | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
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Liquipedia
44 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/fusefuse/LP_EQUALLY_1920_t.jpg) And without the text. | ||
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Kojak21
Canada1104 Posts
it shouldnt matter if you are white, pink, purple, green, yellow, another kind of pinkish color, pinkish red, or blue. i will accept u. | ||
dravernor
Netherlands6181 Posts
this is awesome. | ||
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wozzot
United States1227 Posts
On July 27 2014 01:10 r.Evo wrote: + Show Spoiler + On July 26 2014 22:40 Paljas wrote: what are you even talking about. 1. We are NOT already there. first of all, not everyone on teamliquid is from "the western world". but you are right, most users are from the us, aka a country where equal rights do not exist in many states. and equal rights also do not exist in many europe countries. germany does not has same sex marriage and does not have equal legal status of adoption. same for many other countries in europe. also, it isnt only about legal status but also about the acceptance in the society. looking at the huge anti-gay protests in france, its quite hard to justifiy that "we are already there" Oh, please. In Germany a Registered Life Partnership aka "Lebenspartnerschaft" has nowadays effectively the same rights as married couples. Yes a non-married couple (this goes for both same-sex and opposite-sex couples) can't adopt children together. However, one of the partners can adopt a child and the other partner has to give his okay for it. Add in a document that gives the non-adopting partner all the rights associated with the adopting partner and it's effectively the same. A child that gets adopted this way has the same rights and privileges that a biological child of a person that gets remarried has. The partners have the same benefits as a married couple including alimony, pensions and all the other things. They even have to go through the exact same procedure as a regularly married couple has to if they'd like to split. France: In June 2011, an Ifop poll found that 63% of respondents were in favour of same-sex marriage, while 58% supported adoption rights for same-sex couples. As for Europe in general Italy is basically the only western country without a pro-LGBT stance. Acceptance in society? Most 60+ year olds I know treat homosexuality basically like they'd treat someone who just told them they want to make a living as a painter. "If you really want to it's alright. / Are you sure that's what you want to do? / That means I'll never have grandkids?!" is as far as it gets. The vast, vast majority isn't getting kicked out of their homes for being gay, they're not being beaten up, they're not getting cut out of someones will. That's as fucking awesome as it gets for a movement that's not more than 10-15 years old. 2. I dont get what kind of problem you have with "picking one specific issue". like, i am not allowed to be against discriminnation in germany because people in africa are starving or what. i shouldnt support a local soup kichten because people are getting tortured in north korea. that doesnt make any sense The issue is that when you put up a flag at your house that says "I SUPPORT LOCAL SOUP KITCHENS" and people celebrate you for fighting world hunger something is wrong because you're simply not doing that. It's hypocritical for any company to throw out some banners and then have fans proclaim they're doing an awesome job at supporting a cause. Provide a forum people feel safe in, support people who want to make sure that instead of just having the same rights they're allowed to also call it marriage in a country like Germany. Point fingers at glaringly similar issues with basically zero governmental or public support (once again, polyamory is the same thing with a different background that no one cares about). Those are all awesome things people can support with money and actions. Putting a flag up isn't. It's a really cool baby step but calling it any more than that isn't appropriate. Once more, I'm completely happy if TL wants to be political in any shape or form, I'm completely happy if TL wants to push for equal rights for everyone in places where those rights aren't supported. I just firmly believe that putting up a banner and calling it a day is a horrible way to go about it. It's completely non-committal and not more or less than a nice gesture. Those are some interesting points you've made, but the rainbow horse is pretty and therefore your points are invalid | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On July 27 2014 00:28 salle wrote: Other kind of support for the LGBT(QI?) community or support of other discriminated communities? well, other discriminated communities. I think there is a lot of them out there. Maybe something for those suffering with mental health since it's quite a major issue and not many are open to talking about it. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
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Drekkonis
Canada286 Posts
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Pangpootata
1838 Posts
On July 27 2014 01:10 r.Evo wrote: Once more, I'm completely happy if TL wants to be political in any shape or form, I'm completely happy if TL wants to push for equal rights for everyone in places where those rights aren't supported. I just firmly believe that putting up a banner and calling it a day is a horrible way to go about it. It's completely non-committal and not more or less than a nice gesture. I agree that the rainbow horse doesn't have much effect by itself, but just because TL puts up a nice gesture doesn't mean that it doesn't have concrete actions to make LGBT people feel comfortable. For example, TL will ban people who hate on gays or say inappropriate things about Scarlett in the forum. To make an analogy, if you want to stop animal cruelty, you will put up signs saying stop animal cruelty, as well as take concrete actions to punish offenders. The signs don't have much effect by themselves, but are an important part of the campaign as it raises awareness, as well as reiterates the firm stance of the ruling organisation in eradicating bad behaviour. A campaign with punishments for offenders, but without any signs, will certainly be much less effective. Similarly, TL's rainbow horse also raises awareness on the discrimination LGBT people still face (which is clearly needed, as evinced by the people in this thread who are myopic enough to only consider select western communities, and somehow think that LGBT rights are no longer a problem.) It also serves as a reminder to the TL denizens that derogatory comments against LGBT people will not be tolerated. This, in conjunction with the warnings and bans that mods hand out, will form a complete campaign to support equal rights in the TL forum. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On July 27 2014 14:44 wozzot wrote: Those are some interesting points you've made, but the rainbow horse is pretty and therefore your points are invalid Hahaha yes. Even more importantly, when can I get my rainbow TL hoodie? | ||
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LeeJohnDong
Ireland58 Posts
On July 28 2014 14:01 Pangpootata wrote: I agree that the rainbow horse doesn't have much effect by itself, but just because TL puts up a nice gesture doesn't mean that it doesn't have concrete actions to make LGBT people feel comfortable. For example, TL will ban people who hate on gays or say inappropriate things about Scarlett in the forum. To make an analogy, if you want to stop animal cruelty, you will put up signs saying stop animal cruelty, as well as take concrete actions to punish offenders. The signs don't have much effect by themselves, but are an important part of the campaign as it raises awareness, as well as reiterates the firm stance of the ruling organisation in eradicating bad behaviour. A campaign with punishments for offenders, but without any signs, will certainly be much less effective. Similarly, TL's rainbow horse also raises awareness on the discrimination LGBT people still face (which is clearly needed, as evinced by the people in this thread who are myopic enough to only consider select western communities, and somehow think that LGBT rights are no longer a problem.) It also serves as a reminder to the TL denizens that derogatory comments against LGBT people will not be tolerated. This, in conjunction with the warnings and bans that mods hand out, will form a complete campaign to support equal rights in the TL forum. Wait.. Why would Scarlett be targeted for people to say stuff? and how is that relevant to this discussion? | ||
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Butterednuts
United States859 Posts
Regardless, I'm happy to see TeamLiquid be so supportive and initiate support for equality. Thank you so much, Team Liquid! | ||
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