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On August 08 2014 06:27 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 06:17 chiflutz wrote:
I don't really know/care about the Owned CEO controversy, but tech-wise hitbox is miles ahead of the old Owned and quite a bit ahead of twitch, worldwide server coverage notwithstanding (although they said on their blog that they do have a worldwide network set up).
It'd be a shame if it turned out to be the same person's moneygrabbing scheme all over again. Apparently it's the guy who took over as CEO of Own3d after all the crap had started going wrong, and was trying to sort it out, and not the guy who started Own3d and made everything go tits up. Apparently. Unsourced (Reddit).
The failure of Own3d was not due to one person. There were no allegations of embezzlement. It was because own3d used amazon web services to host their content which was too expensive to do what they want to. They couldn't even make a streaming model where they don't pay content providers work, let alone one like twitch.
Hitbox supposedly 'learned from own3d's mistakes' about keeping their costs down. It's run by the same people http://blog.hitbox.tv/an-introduction-to-our-management/ and making the same mistakes (using amazon) http://whois.domaintools.com/hitbox.tv. They might give excuses like "We are in the growing stage, we will switch later", yet they should know how hard it is to make a streaming model work.
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On August 08 2014 06:46 Disregard wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hpJIQIa.png) So hard
Yeah it's all over /r/Kappa.
lol poor FGC.
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On August 08 2014 07:47 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 06:58 Myles wrote:On August 08 2014 06:46 Disregard wrote:So hard Wow. I get his point, but way to stay classy. Not really his fault that the classic question for that fallacy is a bit crass.
Well, he also misquote it I think. It's "have you stopped beating your wife?"
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Both are good changes. It make is so people can save important broadcasts, while others will be deleted after a 60 days(for partners). Its basically an auto delete program to assure people are not stock piling VODs. And an appeal buttons, which is more than google has.
Also, hitbox TV runs like trash. I get the whole "count culture" thing, but the UI pure poop and it doesn't run any better than Twitch.
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On August 08 2014 11:47 Plansix wrote:Both are good changes. It make is so people can save important broadcasts, while others will be deleted after a 60 days(for partners). Its basically an auto delete program to assure people are not stock piling VODs. And an appeal buttons, which is more than google has. Also, hitbox TV runs like trash. I get the whole "count culture" thing, but the UI pure poop and it doesn't run any better than Twitch.
Hadn't been on hitbox till a few days ago. The UI looked fine to me, it does some things better and does some things worse. But my ISP is fucking with twitch for me and throttling, they don't do that with hitbox (yet). Not saying they're going to take over the world, that they have a business model that works, or that they can even actually pay streamers. But on its own it seems to be a competent product, certainly way the fuck better than own3d ever was, and I don't have to use a proxy to get around the throttling bullshit which is nice.
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On May 19 2014 21:15 Overtime wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 20:24 nimdil wrote:On May 19 2014 19:47 Overtime wrote:
R.I.P Twitch. You will be missed.
Another step for Skynet Google to complete internet & world domination. That statement would be justified if G+ would have succeeded in winning casuals over FB. They wanted to buy Twitch so they would have some proper streaming of their takeover when their army of robots&drones starts rolling out: Google Robot ArmyGoogle buys Artificial Intelligence Company
It seems strange that a lot of this stuff never makes the news. Yes google seems buying any company that has high potential so they can make profits or try to control the world.
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On August 08 2014 11:47 Plansix wrote:Both are good changes. It make is so people can save important broadcasts, while others will be deleted after a 60 days(for partners). Its basically an auto delete program to assure people are not stock piling VODs. And an appeal buttons, which is more than google has. Also, hitbox TV runs like trash. I get the whole "count culture" thing, but the UI pure poop and it doesn't run any better than Twitch.
I've been using twitch for years but after trying out hitbox yesterday I can safely say it does not run "run like trash" at all. I was able to up my resolution to 1080p at 60fps without any stream lag for my viewers (albeit someone on the mobile platform having some difficulty). Most noticeably though the lack of any significant stream/chat delay means streamers can interact with the chat with <3 seconds delay, making for a much better experience IMO.
Sure, hitbox might not be ready to take on any major tournaments or big-name streamers, but for anyone averaging less than 500 concurrent viewers I can imagine that hitbox could be a legitimate alternative.
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United States252 Posts
Is anybody surprised that twitch just suddenly started doing this content-id right after they were bought by google?
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On August 08 2014 22:06 LastManProductions wrote:
Is anybody surprised that twitch just suddenly started doing this content-id right after they were bought by google?
IF they were bought by Google. Theres still no real confirmation whatsoever.
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On August 08 2014 22:06 LastManProductions wrote:
Is anybody surprised that twitch just suddenly started doing this content-id right after they were bought by google?
Twitch hasn't been bought yet, nothing is confirmed
On August 08 2014 19:55 Erik.TheRed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 11:47 Plansix wrote:Both are good changes. It make is so people can save important broadcasts, while others will be deleted after a 60 days(for partners). Its basically an auto delete program to assure people are not stock piling VODs. And an appeal buttons, which is more than google has. Also, hitbox TV runs like trash. I get the whole "count culture" thing, but the UI pure poop and it doesn't run any better than Twitch. I've been using twitch for years but after trying out hitbox yesterday I can safely say it does not run "run like trash" at all. I was able to up my resolution to 1080p at 60fps without any stream lag for my viewers (albeit someone on the mobile platform having some difficulty). Most noticeably though the lack of any significant stream/chat delay means streamers can interact with the chat with <3 seconds delay, making for a much better experience IMO. Sure, hitbox might not be ready to take on any major tournaments or big-name streamers, but for anyone averaging less than 500 concurrent viewers I can imagine that hitbox could be a legitimate alternative.
Of course hitbox runs great. It uses amazon as it host and will have to pay an unsustainable amount of money. Heck anyone can make a great streaming service, that isn't the hard part. The hard part is making more money than you spend
Everyone keeps on yelling "we need more competition", which is the opposite. This is a classic example of economy of scale. It's prohibitively expensive for small streaming services to deliver content. We need to support the twitch monopoly so they can build their backbone and market leverage.
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On August 08 2014 22:19 LSB wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 22:06 LastManProductions wrote:
Is anybody surprised that twitch just suddenly started doing this content-id right after they were bought by google? Twitch hasn't been bought yet, nothing is confirmed Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 19:55 Erik.TheRed wrote:On August 08 2014 11:47 Plansix wrote:Both are good changes. It make is so people can save important broadcasts, while others will be deleted after a 60 days(for partners). Its basically an auto delete program to assure people are not stock piling VODs. And an appeal buttons, which is more than google has. Also, hitbox TV runs like trash. I get the whole "count culture" thing, but the UI pure poop and it doesn't run any better than Twitch. I've been using twitch for years but after trying out hitbox yesterday I can safely say it does not run "run like trash" at all. I was able to up my resolution to 1080p at 60fps without any stream lag for my viewers (albeit someone on the mobile platform having some difficulty). Most noticeably though the lack of any significant stream/chat delay means streamers can interact with the chat with <3 seconds delay, making for a much better experience IMO. Sure, hitbox might not be ready to take on any major tournaments or big-name streamers, but for anyone averaging less than 500 concurrent viewers I can imagine that hitbox could be a legitimate alternative. Of course hitbox runs great. It uses amazon as it host and will have to pay an unsustainable amount of money. Heck anyone can make a great streaming service, that isn't the hard part. The hard part is making more money than you spend Everyone keeps on yelling "we need more competition", which is the opposite. This is a classic example of economy of scale. It's prohibitively expensive for small streaming services to deliver content. We need to support the twitch monopoly so they can build their backbone and market leverage.
Supporting the twitch monopoly does not inherently make it more efficient. Even if they have the ability to leverage economies of scale it doesn't mean their leadership or vision is mature enough to actually succeed with it. Having Google on board is going to help but they aren't immune to making mistakes either (a lot of their entrepreneurial endeavors have been failures). Sure, it's not realistic to imagine hitbox taking anywhere near the amount of traffic that Twitch garners and still making a profit, but who's to say they can't partner with larger services/companies like Amazon down the line.
Also, cloud services have been getting cheaper each year so maybe what's unsustainable now will be profitable in a few years time (http://blog.dshr.org/2012/02/cloud-storage-pricing-history.html). Of course this is all just speculation but I don't think it's completely crazy to think that an oligopoly might form with regards to internet streaming, perhaps segmented based on traffic or stream-type (i.e. twitch for large tournaments/premier streamers and other sites for smaller/casual streamers).
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On August 08 2014 08:06 LSB wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 06:27 Lonyo wrote:On August 08 2014 06:17 chiflutz wrote:
I don't really know/care about the Owned CEO controversy, but tech-wise hitbox is miles ahead of the old Owned and quite a bit ahead of twitch, worldwide server coverage notwithstanding (although they said on their blog that they do have a worldwide network set up).
It'd be a shame if it turned out to be the same person's moneygrabbing scheme all over again. Apparently it's the guy who took over as CEO of Own3d after all the crap had started going wrong, and was trying to sort it out, and not the guy who started Own3d and made everything go tits up. Apparently. Unsourced (Reddit). Hitbox supposedly 'learned from own3d's mistakes' about keeping their costs down. It's run by the same people http://blog.hitbox.tv/an-introduction-to-our-management/ and making the same mistakes (using amazon) http://whois.domaintools.com/hitbox.tv.
The only thing your whois is showing is that their web servers are likely on Amazon. But who cares about that? What matters is their streaming servers, and from a quick glance they're streaming from Edgecast, not from Amazon:
(With a stream opened in FF)
$ lsof -i | grep plugin
[...]->68.232.32.221:macromedia-fcs (ESTABLISHED)
$ whois 68.232.32.221
NetName: EDGECAST-NETBLK-04
OrgName: EdgeCast Networks, Inc.
Now, I'm not claiming that Edgecast is cheap - as a third-party CDN they're probably charging Hitbox much more than what Twitch has to pay to stream on their own infrastructure - but the fact is that no, they don't seem to be streaming from Amazon.
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His point is that they are renting server space, which is what killed Own3d in the end. Twitch owns their servers and does not rent, which it one of they ways they are successful at what they are doing. I don't know how much it cuts into their bottom line, but the problem with rent is that scaling up gets very expensive very quickly.
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China6329 Posts
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On August 08 2014 22:50 Erik.TheRed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 22:19 LSB wrote:On August 08 2014 22:06 LastManProductions wrote:
Is anybody surprised that twitch just suddenly started doing this content-id right after they were bought by google? Twitch hasn't been bought yet, nothing is confirmed On August 08 2014 19:55 Erik.TheRed wrote:On August 08 2014 11:47 Plansix wrote:Both are good changes. It make is so people can save important broadcasts, while others will be deleted after a 60 days(for partners). Its basically an auto delete program to assure people are not stock piling VODs. And an appeal buttons, which is more than google has. Also, hitbox TV runs like trash. I get the whole "count culture" thing, but the UI pure poop and it doesn't run any better than Twitch. I've been using twitch for years but after trying out hitbox yesterday I can safely say it does not run "run like trash" at all. I was able to up my resolution to 1080p at 60fps without any stream lag for my viewers (albeit someone on the mobile platform having some difficulty). Most noticeably though the lack of any significant stream/chat delay means streamers can interact with the chat with <3 seconds delay, making for a much better experience IMO. Sure, hitbox might not be ready to take on any major tournaments or big-name streamers, but for anyone averaging less than 500 concurrent viewers I can imagine that hitbox could be a legitimate alternative. Of course hitbox runs great. It uses amazon as it host and will have to pay an unsustainable amount of money. Heck anyone can make a great streaming service, that isn't the hard part. The hard part is making more money than you spend Everyone keeps on yelling "we need more competition", which is the opposite. This is a classic example of economy of scale. It's prohibitively expensive for small streaming services to deliver content. We need to support the twitch monopoly so they can build their backbone and market leverage. Supporting the twitch monopoly does not inherently make it more efficient. Even if they have the ability to leverage economies of scale it doesn't mean their leadership or vision is mature enough to actually succeed with it. Having Google on board is going to help but they aren't immune to making mistakes either (a lot of their entrepreneurial endeavors have been failures). Sure, it's not realistic to imagine hitbox taking anywhere near the amount of traffic that Twitch garners and still making a profit, but who's to say they can't partner with larger services/companies like Amazon down the line. Also, cloud services have been getting cheaper each year so maybe what's unsustainable now will be profitable in a few years time (http://blog.dshr.org/2012/02/cloud-storage-pricing-history.html). Of course this is all just speculation but I don't think it's completely crazy to think that an oligopoly might form with regards to internet streaming, perhaps segmented based on traffic or stream-type (i.e. twitch for large tournaments/premier streamers and other sites for smaller/casual streamers).
So instead of twitch we are going to hedge our hopes on a startup that relies on future technology that has not been developed (and they won't personally develop) to make their business feasible? Or find partnerships with companies that Twitch was unable to find? That is completely unrealistic.
Certainly if hosting becomes cheap enough twitch will have a huge amount of competitors, however that hasn't happened, video CDN pricing is stable http://blog.streamingmedia.com/2012/09/cdn-pricing-stable-survey-data-shows-pricing-down-15-this-year.html, if you try to stream a tournament through cloud storage you won't make it to the end before getting data capped. A more major concern is that if net neutrality is thrown out the window, that may not happen for a very long period of time. Considering how internet companies spend so little on lobbying it would not be a surprise.
Yes we can imagine in the future everyone will have fiber and content will be so cheap that we can download a car. The future proliferation of open source streaming software and code will allow streamers will be able to stream at their own individual websites and all ad revenue will go to them. Twitch will be nothing but a google search for these personal streaming websites.
But until we have a technological revolution, only a monopoly will allow streaming to be sustainable. VC money doesn't last forever.
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On August 08 2014 22:54 Matoo- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 08:06 LSB wrote:On August 08 2014 06:27 Lonyo wrote:On August 08 2014 06:17 chiflutz wrote:
I don't really know/care about the Owned CEO controversy, but tech-wise hitbox is miles ahead of the old Owned and quite a bit ahead of twitch, worldwide server coverage notwithstanding (although they said on their blog that they do have a worldwide network set up).
It'd be a shame if it turned out to be the same person's moneygrabbing scheme all over again. Apparently it's the guy who took over as CEO of Own3d after all the crap had started going wrong, and was trying to sort it out, and not the guy who started Own3d and made everything go tits up. Apparently. Unsourced (Reddit). Hitbox supposedly 'learned from own3d's mistakes' about keeping their costs down. It's run by the same people http://blog.hitbox.tv/an-introduction-to-our-management/ and making the same mistakes (using amazon) http://whois.domaintools.com/hitbox.tv. The only thing your whois is showing is that their web servers are likely on Amazon. But who cares about that? What matters is their streaming servers, and from a quick glance they're streaming from Edgecast, not from Amazon: (With a stream opened in FF) $ lsof -i | grep plugin [...]->68.232.32.221:macromedia-fcs (ESTABLISHED) $ whois 68.232.32.221 NetName: EDGECAST-NETBLK-04 OrgName: EdgeCast Networks, Inc. Now, I'm not claiming that Edgecast is cheap - as a third-party CDN they're probably charging Hitbox much more than what Twitch has to pay to stream on their own infrastructure - but the fact is that no, they don't seem to be streaming from Amazon.
Well, that's worse than amazon as per https://www.scaleengine.com/pricing/edgecast/
We are looking at $0.16 per gig. O.O
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Some of the anti-hitbox posts are hilariously shameless.
Going from 1 end of the spectrum ("hitbox runs like shit! it's terrible!") to the other ("well of course it runs amazingly, it's renting servers; clearly that is not sustainable and we need twitch to have a monopoly to encourage competition OBVIOUSLY!") within 1 page.
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On August 08 2014 23:19 Kurr wrote:
Some of the anti-hitbox posts are hilariously shameless.
Going from 1 end of the spectrum ("hitbox runs like shit! it's terrible!") to the other ("well of course it runs amazingly, it's renting servers; clearly that is not sustainable and we need twitch to have a monopoly to encourage competition OBVIOUSLY!") within 1 page.
Different people have different opinions? O.O
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EPT
