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On October 28 2013 00:13 riotjune wrote:
I'm not familiar with the concept of "calling out," is that something humans do to see who has a bigger peen? My query at urbandictionary tells me it's meant more of as an insult.
You sound like a non-smoker who never smoked telling a smoker "Why don't you take responsibility and just quit you weak sap? I bet I can do it since I'm strong!" If you never smoked, you would never understand the craving that addiction entails and what smokers experience. Sure, quitting might be harder for some than others, but it doesn't change the fact there are a multitude of methods and resources in getting people to quit, which wouldn't exist if it were easy just to "man up" and stop smoking. People have tried taking responsibility and failed.
Same with alcohol abuse, gambling, and I can see the same potential problem with video games. These things can be enjoyed in moderation, but when one does them in such an excess it starts interfering with one's daily life, then it becomes a problem, and said problem becomes labeled as addiction/problematic use/whatever something most people don't want to be associated with. Which is hard for some people to admit they have an addiction problem in the first place, the first step to address addiction is to realize one has it and this can be difficult if one insists they "choose to drink" or "choose to play video games" even if these activities are bringing in other problems in life.
You can say the same thing with any other hobby or whatever. It's just that behind smoking, alcohol and gambling there are chemicals (nicotine, alcohol, dopamine) and chemical pathways at work in the brain that make addiction to these things easier. For video games? I don't know, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess it's also dopamine at work (same stuff used for learning). Maybe somebody with more knowledge in the field can shed more light on the matter. The fact that more children are exposed to video games at an earlier age could be a potential problem. Now if only getting math problems correct in school offer the same rush...
Anyway, this thread will probably repeat itself ad nauseam with both sides repeating their views and leave neither side convinced, and I'm fine with that. At least we have more discussion and perspectives on a matter that always kind of got gamers riled up. We're gamers after all and don't like to see gaming associated with something "bad" such as "addiction."
If you get insulted by someone calling you out, then there was some truth to whatever got you mad. If you don't care, then no worries, it does not apply to you.
You know nothing of my past, and yet are making assumptions to try and justify discounting what I am saying. Support groups are just that, supplemental. When you are in a moment of weakness, you have people there to keep you pushing forward. I have infinitely more respect for someone who uses a support group, then someone who never tries to quit and calls it an addiction or someone who gives up trying. Ultimately the person responsible for a behavior change is you. A support group is not quitting for you, a prescription drug is not quitting for you. That why I don't accept when people say they have an "addiction" and can't quit. They have no confidence in themselves. They are giving away their balls to a video game, a cigarette, a bottle, etc. They don't see their potential.
Side Note: Dopamine is a chemical in the brain that your brain releases to reward you. Dopamine makes you feel good. The wikipedia article on Dopamine is educational.
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Again, thanks to everyone for the great discussion. After writing my original article the comments and discussion from many gamers led to major improvements in the overall framework. I appreciate everything you guys have contributed.
If anybody has any specific questions for me, I’m here to answer them. I’ll try to comment on as many of other comments as I’ve seen so far but may miss a few.
@ MidKnight - Thanks for your feedback. What do you think it should have focused on?
@ Thomas Sowell - This can definitely be the case. I believe one of the root causes of this is that many people are now getting into gaming so young that they are never given a real opportunity to experience other aspects of life.
@ JustPassingBy - Great examples. I went skydiving recently and I can say for a fact I’ve never experienced anything like it. Highly recommended. That can be the case with everybody but many have a much more difficult time. It’s similar to how many people can drink in moderation but for others it’s incredibly incredibly difficult to not just get black out wasted every time.
@ VayneAuthority - I do agree that all people are different, however and I’ve explained this in more detail in a previous post on this thread, there is a difference between having fun and being happy and in my experience - and my article comments can be proof of this if you’re that curious - many people who are playing games that WANT TO STOP are actually depressed by their continued play and aren’t actually happy. I’d be curious at what age you think it’s appropriate for them to make their own decisions as well, and also, if they are making their own decision to WANT TO STOP… should we help? 
@ mishimaBeef - Haha thanks. For me that was something I noticed from the article comments a lot… was that people were waiting for permission to stop, so I wanted to add that in. Every talk has to be a bit cheesy right? 
@ Jisall - I do agree with you that self-control is important and that focusing on taking responsibility for your life is a big step towards living the type of life you want. My question would be, what would be the best approach to help someone develop that self-control… or for instance, is simply telling an alcoholic to get some self-control going to help them stop drinking?
@ RezJ - Thanks for your contribution to the discussion!
@ Confuse - Thanks for your comment. Haha I definitely think it would have been better in 8-12 minutes but 6 was what I was given so that’s what I worked with. I do agree it’s good for helping people watch it!
@ willoc - I appreciate your input. To be honest, I’m not bitter at all about it. During my time playing games I was also an elite athlete and had a decent social life as well. The time constraint of the talk made it very difficult to expand on vew points which I agree was unfortunate. I do wish I could have gone into more practical steps.
I would challenge you on your notion that any self-respecting parent already does not give their kids iPads to play with, because video game/parenting trends worldwide would likely disagree with you. I had absolutely incredible parents for example, but I was very difficult for them to deal with when it came to games. I think it’s inaccurate to assume that parents who give their kids iPads are doing it with the awareness of the long-term affects on their kids lives. That’s one reason why I’m trying to bring more awareness to them about it.
The original part of the TEDx talk is not villifying gamers. If you watch any other talk on video games on TEDx they all focus on debating whether games are good or bad, instead of trying to focus on helping people that want help.
@ HeeroFX - I played SC, CS 1.6 and WoW mainly, wasn’t much $. Also, I appreciate that you agree with the points. On the parenting side I think it’s easy from an outside point of view to think about how that process works, but in my case and in many cases it’s not as simple as just taking the games away. I DID have a section in my talk on that exact question but unfortunately I blanked out during the talk and forgot this part, haha. Whoops!
@ TanKLoveR - Thanks for commenting. I’m stoked to hear you were able to move on and figure out how to start doing the things you want to do and become happy doing it. I understand and completely relate to the struggle and difficulty in making this happen.
@ Mothra - Thanks for commenting! I agree about practical steps. My hope was that with the talk we could create more awareness around the problem, since the 6 minutes didn’t leave me with a lot of time to dive deeper. I’d love to hear what you think about the article and whether the article + comments help you with more practical steps: http://kingpinlifestyle.com/how-to-quit-playing-video-games/
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I'm getting my doctorate in clinical psychology and I'm currently doing my diagnostic practicum at the community jail. I diagnose a lot of substance use disorder and related "addictions" (side note: "addiction" isn't a term we use because it's so ambiguous).
I am of the professional opinion that video game use should be clinically diagnosable in the same way that internet use disorder and gambling disorder or even substance use disorders are. In terms of brain chemistry, video games are really good at manipulating dopamine responses, and the criteria for a disorder are basically "does it cause significant distress or disability" and "is it far outside the tendencies of the norm" which it can be.
Also, people have died from video games and experience withdrawal. People neglect their children and some have died because of video games.
THAT BEING SAID, I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD BAN VIDEOGAMES OR THAT VIDEOGAMES ARE BAD. I THINK PEOPLE ARE DUMB.
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@ ZERG_RUSSIAN - Thanks for adding your professional opinion and helping to educate us all on the clinical side of this equation. I really appreciate it!
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self-control requires mental discipline and fortitude. Both of which require high level of mindfulness in order to be aware of your feelings and not auto-react to them but respond in an free way. Best way to train mindfulness is to meditate daily and train your mind. Without a strong mind, long term change is not possible and the strength of the mind is something we cultivate over time. Your mind wants to be entertained and satisfied all the time, and when you sit down and focus you are essentially observing what the mind wants, but not succumbing to it. It is a form of control over self that develops mental fortitude.
I believe addiction is a state of mind when urges are extremely high (due to physical changes in the brain), and at the same time the conscious mind is very weak. With the help of family/friends and cultivating certain behaviours, I would say it is the best way to tackle the problem. All of that said, I really don't think video games are truly addicting, but more so that kids are retreating from real life and bored, at least that is how it was for me personally.
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On October 28 2013 05:02 Colbert wrote:
@ Jisall - I do agree with you that self-control is important and that focusing on taking responsibility for your life is a big step towards living the type of life you want. My question would be, what would be the best approach to help someone develop that self-control… or for instance, is simply telling an alcoholic to get some self-control going to help them stop drinking?
Ultimately the alcoholic has to want to quit. You can't force anybody to do anything, you can only light the path and show them that it is possible. And if they decide to try and overcome their addiction, be there for them. It is going to be a struggle-some time in the addicts life, if you care about them, you do not let them quit on themselves (+ Show Spoiler [Example from a Movie] +).
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I do agree with your emphasis on exposing (esp young people) to real life and other kinds of hobbies / enjoyable things to do. I was always more of a gamer as a kid but I went through phases of using bow and arrows, javelins, general play with my sister and swimming in the pool as a kid too. While I do believe gaming almost certainly has the highest 'fun factor' of just about any activity, it feels good to do shit outside and break it up too. The thought of doing something productive (even if it's something stupid like making chainmail, trying to paint something or going for a bike ride) is nice and imo allows you to have more fun when you play something because a) you've not wasted your day and b) in limiting your time (not by a huge amount) you're more committed to having fun (if that makes sense).
The funny thing is, as a kid my parents gave me a lot of freedom to do whatever I wanted (within reason). I remember choosing not to swim/go outside even on some reasonably hot days (this occurred over a pretty reasonable period of time) because gaming was more fun instead. I remember feeling kinda shitty about it but not caring too much cos I'd squeeze in some workout time at some point and decided that would half-cover it. But from my parents perspective it must have taken some pretty good resilience to let me continue doing my own thing and allow me to realise for myself that real life has it's ups on occasion and develop my own hobbies (bike riding, and metalwork etc).
Edit: Though I'm not at all opposed to introducing kids to hobbies or whatever to do outside / irl, just to clarify.
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On October 27 2013 10:21 TanKLoveR wrote:
Sigh this video really reminded me of myself for the last few years. I don't think I was "addicted" per se, I just didn't know what else to do so I just played video games, eventually I suppose that became an addiction specially when I started playing WoW.
Nothing sucks more than being the one guy who doesn't know what to do with his life, at least that's my experience. I saw my old high school friends (the few I stayed in touch with) went to university and studied all kinds of things, while I was at home playing BW or WoW. Years went by and they graduated, got jobs, even got kids etc etc while I was still playing these games, it also didn't help I met people who I bonded with in these games so I felt these were my only friends and gaming was the only way to interact with them.
Eventually though I reconnected with an old friend who was just leaving his gaming days behind him, the new age of games for your mom started and blizzard got on that bandwagon faster than you can say For The Horde and made both my favorite games (SC2 and WoW) into brainless casual activities akin to farmville, I always liked to challenge myself in games so these games didn't do it for me anymore regardless of my gamer friends. I honestly think if blizzard hadn't changed these games to be casual experiences I would still be playing T_T so as much as I hate what they did to games I love, I owe blizzard a lot.
Now instead of wondering what "I'm meant to do", what "I'm good for" I just picked to go with something I have an interest in, programming and I been studying for a while, I plan on going to university next year and study CS so things are very different now. Last game I played was FTL and I played for like 3 hours? haven't touched it again since, I honestly have so much catching up to do that there isn't time for gaming, the good thing is that all those high school friends who I was jealous of are stuck with terrible jobs and a bunch of kids, while I'm free to shape the rest of my life however I want. I'm kind of happy that I went through all that crap, having less time to do everything you hoped to do in your life gives you a bigger sense of urgency and what's important and what isn't.
This guy trash talked me very badly two times. I'm glad he's doing bad at life. Revenge is sweet, and victory tastes like a delicious hot chocolate or a good red wine.
Gotta be honest, I loved writting this. Hhahhahahahah. Oh, and just for the record, I'm glad you're a loser.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On October 24 2013 08:03 StatixEx wrote:
Ive posted about this before and was the basis of my software programming and engineering degree, its a really interesting thing to look into but for me i concluded its a load of old bollocks and its something in the end you grow out of. just hear me out if you can be arsed
most of us in here are hard core gamers, you cant get addicted to video games . .you just really really REALLY like to play them. Take video games away from someone and nothing will happen, take any other addicting thing (being careful to not go onto drugs and the like here) and the body shuts down and people have died through the with draw. you cant get addicted to video games, the word needs replacing and i can almost guarantee video games can be replaced by something else where as this new thing becomes addicting.
eg, my life, i play games every single day, have done for over 27 years now, i feel im addicted to them and the gf and friends say i am, so, when i go for a holiday for 3 weeks and dont play a single one . . well nothing happened. Last month i joined the gym as i want to compete in a triathlon, i never played a game for a couple of weeks . . nothing happened to me, BUT when i smoked 60 cigs a day i simply couldnt quit for years, when i finally overcame it the transformation my body went through hurt and the craving i went through and stupid shit i did to stop just not going for a cig, i think back now was just plain ridiculous and i feel a fool . . but i couldnt believe what my mind and body was doing to me . . . it was something you cant imagine if youve never been addicted. no you cant get addicted to video games you just really Really REALLY like playing them and dont really want to stop. Addiction to me became to mean something the body thinks it simply cant live without, games im afraid could be replaced by anything. I told you to give up games and you could be an f1 driver (insert thing you really really want to be here) and wallah . . .you just stopped with no side affects or withdraw
Addiction can actually be scientifically measured by a rise in delta fos b in the brain. You can be addicted to anything, its just that some addictions are worse than others. I know what you mean, but just because you didn't have cravings for video games like you did with nicotine doesn't mean no one else does.
People have different tolerances to things, some people get addicted to alchohol after one drink, some never get addicted even when they drink all the time.
I quit cigs easy, but if you want to get me away from the computer be prepared to bring a tow truck.
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On October 28 2013 12:04 Jisall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 05:02 Colbert wrote:
@ Jisall - I do agree with you that self-control is important and that focusing on taking responsibility for your life is a big step towards living the type of life you want. My question would be, what would be the best approach to help someone develop that self-control… or for instance, is simply telling an alcoholic to get some self-control going to help them stop drinking?
Ultimately the alcoholic has to want to quit. You can't force anybody to do anything, you can only light the path and show them that it is possible. And if they decide to try and overcome their addiction, be there for them. It is going to be a struggle-some time in the addicts life, if you care about them, you do not let them quit on themselves ( + Show Spoiler [Example from a Movie] +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOyiSEonUFA ).
Alcoholism is actually different in terms of addiction if I remember correctly because it actually works primarily* on GABA receptors rather than dopamine receptors and after a period of abuse the body has a neuroregulatory correction tendency whereby it decreases the amount of GABA receptors in the body. This causes uncontrolled firing of the synapses when someone quits which can lead to seizures and all kinds of weird effects that result from random synapses firing because I think GABA is an inhibitory neurotransmitter on most parts of the body. There are other drugs of abuse that this happens with but they're mostly benzodiazepines and similar drugs. In that sense, the alcohol withdrawal is actually different from, say, a nicotine or an amphetamine withdrawal, mainly because you can actually die from cold turkey-ing alcohol.
The wikipedia page is enlightening and where I verified most of my information but I figured I'd distill it a bit because it's reaaaaaaaally long.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholism
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On October 28 2013 12:59 Nevermind86 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2013 10:21 TanKLoveR wrote:
Sigh this video really reminded me of myself for the last few years. I don't think I was "addicted" per se, I just didn't know what else to do so I just played video games, eventually I suppose that became an addiction specially when I started playing WoW.
Nothing sucks more than being the one guy who doesn't know what to do with his life, at least that's my experience. I saw my old high school friends (the few I stayed in touch with) went to university and studied all kinds of things, while I was at home playing BW or WoW. Years went by and they graduated, got jobs, even got kids etc etc while I was still playing these games, it also didn't help I met people who I bonded with in these games so I felt these were my only friends and gaming was the only way to interact with them.
Eventually though I reconnected with an old friend who was just leaving his gaming days behind him, the new age of games for your mom started and blizzard got on that bandwagon faster than you can say For The Horde and made both my favorite games (SC2 and WoW) into brainless casual activities akin to farmville, I always liked to challenge myself in games so these games didn't do it for me anymore regardless of my gamer friends. I honestly think if blizzard hadn't changed these games to be casual experiences I would still be playing T_T so as much as I hate what they did to games I love, I owe blizzard a lot.
Now instead of wondering what "I'm meant to do", what "I'm good for" I just picked to go with something I have an interest in, programming and I been studying for a while, I plan on going to university next year and study CS so things are very different now. Last game I played was FTL and I played for like 3 hours? haven't touched it again since, I honestly have so much catching up to do that there isn't time for gaming, the good thing is that all those high school friends who I was jealous of are stuck with terrible jobs and a bunch of kids, while I'm free to shape the rest of my life however I want. I'm kind of happy that I went through all that crap, having less time to do everything you hoped to do in your life gives you a bigger sense of urgency and what's important and what isn't. This guy trash talked me very badly two times. I'm glad he's doing bad at life. Revenge is sweet, and victory tastes like a delicious hot chocolate or a good red wine. Gotta be honest, I loved writting this. Hhahhahahahah. Oh, and just for the record, I'm glad you're a loser.
Be nicer to people. You didn't win anything because he's suffered and that mentality will cause you to feel horrible when bad things happen to you.
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@ Jisall - Yes absolutely. Do you agree that this is the same approach we should take for people who are “addicted” to video games?
@ Phenny - Thanks! I think, and of course I’m not a doctor so I cannot say for certain so this is pure speculation, but from what I understand about the way dopamine releases are manipulated in video games I would say suggest that being exposed to video games so young can create a misrepresentation of how much “fun” other activities are.
I guess part of it goes back to my suggestion that a detox is necessary away from games in order to recalibrate to the fun of other experiences, at least in my situation this was the case. Although I do remember (with a big smile on my face I will say) the fun I had playing video games, it’s a very different type of fun than what I experience now pursuing other passions I have such as DJing. Neither is “better” or “worse”, merely different, but I do believe the type of fun you receive in video games can discourage you from pursuing other activities due to them being “less fun”, when that’s not necessarily the case. It is, however, rather difficult initially to get to that point and absolutely takes time.
@ sluggaslamoo - I completely relate to you about how different some addictions are compared to others relative to each person’s personality.
@ ZERG_RUSSIAN - Thanks for continuing to correct us on the medical side of things! It’s awesome to learn more about how all of this works.
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On October 28 2013 05:59 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
I'm getting my doctorate in clinical psychology and I'm currently doing my diagnostic practicum at the community jail. I diagnose a lot of substance use disorder and related "addictions" (side note: "addiction" isn't a term we use because it's so ambiguous).
I am of the professional opinion that video game use should be clinically diagnosable in the same way that internet use disorder and gambling disorder or even substance use disorders are. In terms of brain chemistry, video games are really good at manipulating dopamine responses, and the criteria for a disorder are basically "does it cause significant distress or disability" and "is it far outside the tendencies of the norm" which it can be.
Also, people have died from video games and experience withdrawal. People neglect their children and some have died because of video games.
THAT BEING SAID, I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD BAN VIDEOGAMES OR THAT VIDEOGAMES ARE BAD. I THINK PEOPLE ARE DUMB.
Anything pleasurable manipulates dopamine responses AFAIK.
People have died from over hydration.
People neglect their kids for all sorts of things, not just video games.
People can be addicted to practically anything.
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I think it's interesting that i have not played video games (except for maybe ~20-30 hrs) in the last 5yrs and yet i still like to watch snipealot etc and in fact have to make myself turn it off on occasions to get on with other things. i was certainly lost in video games for a while but i'm not 100% sure you can be 'cured' or whatever this tedx talks guy calls it just cos you went cold turkey for a number of years. Not sure how others have found this...
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I dont get how this video should help anyone to stop gaming.
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Hi everyone, brother of the speaker here! That has no significant impact on the discussion, just letting it be known. Both Cam and I have had video games play a significant role in our adolescent ages, but I think we represent two different sides of the coin when it comes to the overarching idea of video game addiction.
I do believe that addictive personalities/disorders can latch onto the medium of video games as a means to escape their real, day-to-day problems. However, I do not think that you can actually be addicted to the video games themselves, but rather the feelings of escape that they provide. This statement should be obvious, and actually point to addiction: an alcoholic may not necessarily be addicted to the chemical substance of alcohol (although they can be!), but rather addicted to the reduced anxiety, neurosis, etc, that may come from the inebriation. Overall, I think addiction comes primarily from the individual participating in any activity (drinking, smoking, gaming, gambling) rather than the activity itself.
It has been said that the term of "addiction"/etc should not be the focus of discussion on the video, but I think that the term is a core topic to discuss in overall participation in activities, especially in adolescence. We could take a look at several teenagers around the world that figuratively breathe for baseball. It is all they think of, all they surround themselves with, and all that they participate in. They may even dismiss university/college in an attempt to go big, or may sacrifice their grades in school to have more time to participate in the sport. In most cases, a child like this would be celebrated for their passion, for their dream, and for their determination. If you replace this scenario with a child that surrounds themselves with video games, thinks about video games, and plays video games as much as possible, parents are encouraged to believe that their child is addicted, and should take appropriate action to remove their child from this environment. Where can we draw the line between passion and addiction?
As for myself, I firmly believe that I was passionate about video games, rather than addicted. An outside observer would look at my 18-hour days on weekends farming motes in WoW as an addiction, but I firmly believe that I simply had a dream of being the best, and I was determined to put in the hours to achieve this goal. Just as a high school student may skip a class for football practice, at times I would skip class on a midnight release in order to gain an edge against other players competing for ranking. However, since an outside observer simply sees a lone kid sitting in a dark room skipping school, they do not see the same tangible benefits as the high school student sacrificing their grades and/or class-time.
That being said, there are core differences between what Cam and I experienced with gaming that indicates an addiction rather than a passion. As Cam discussed in his talk, he dropped out of school. I, on the other hand, would make up for sacrificed time when I was able to, in order to continue to succeed in my academics. More so, I remember times where there were arguments over Cam participating in family vacations, because he simply wanted to stay and play video games, while I would go, and might play video games on scheduled raid nights on my laptop (if on raid progression), or would simply avoid games altogether (if farming raids). I'm not trying to illustrate who, if anyone, handled their participation in video games better, if at all, but rather illuminate that their are core behaviours that are prevalent in all forms of addiction that could be used to identify a gaming addict from a passionate gamer.
So why this long essay? I think it is imperative to the discussion to remove the medium or activity of addiction from the addict. I really enjoy Cam's video because it tries to use his addiction to video games as a case study for adolescent addictive personalities/behaviours as a whole, rather than a point to say to parents, "hey look your kid plays games, he is addicted." I think if any progress is to be made in the discussion of addictions as a whole, but also in the progression of video games as a beneficial activity and an e-sport, we must focus not on "being addicted to video games", but rather "being an addict, and latching onto video games", if that makes sense.
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Bisutopia19152 Posts
I can't watch right now but does he mention anything on how to stop hitting f5 on the TL website?
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Is there any way to talk about video-game addiction without making video-games sound like crack?
Like, I imagine there's people out there with chocolate addiction...
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On October 28 2013 23:55 BisuDagger wrote:
I can't watch right now but does he mention anything on how to stop hitting f5 on the TL website?
Yes, be a KT Flash fanboy.
You won't find anything worth F5'ing TL anymore.
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@ Resonate - Thanks for commenting. I’ve definitely found many people have been able to recalibrate to interacting with video games in moderation. Sometimes it just takes time. It’s interesting to hear you’ve still been able to watch videos. This is something that tends to inspire my desire to play the most, so I avoid it whenever I can.
@ Zeon0 - Thanks for your feedback. Unfortunately for the purpose of this video and the time allotted I had to chose to focus on bringing more awareness to the problem instead of merely focusing on offering solutions. My desire was that if the video inspired someone to seek more information they would be able to find the answers they were looking for in the article I’ve written on the subject (of which you can find by searching “how to quit playing video games” into google.)
@ Xzilend - Great post. Thanks brother.
@ BisuDagger - Haha, I’ll add that into the next one!
@ Xpace - I think it’s rather difficult but not impossible. I disagree with the chocolate parallel, even if simply because of the scale of the problem. I certainly do not want to relate video games to crack, merely the intensity of how video games manipulate dopamine releases in your brain can have a very strong pull on someone.
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EPT
