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On August 15 2006 20:41 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2006 17:39 aseq wrote:
Hot77.iEy: I'm not a christian, nor am i certain of either evolution or creation, but i do believe that a single flood COULD / MAY have created the grand canyon (this flood + the aftereffects of the erosion, formed rivers, winds etc. ). When you look at it from the evolution point of view, the grand canyon wasn't formed during or shortly after the big bang, so there must have been some forces involved after that (like a giant earthquake, a meteorite hit (possibly resulting in a massive flood) or stuff like that). It's not all that unthinkable imo.
I read a theoretical book about this supposed flood once, which was inspiring and a great read (but in dutch). I'm in favor of teaching creationism in schools too (flame me), but alongside evolution. To me, neither are proven, evolution is still a theory, as is creationism, so let's learn kids all there is to know and let them make their own decision.
Problem here mostly is that many amerakins do believe what they're taught and this depends highly on their location. I don't like zealous regilious ppl either, but i got no problem with someone who has looked at this from different points of view and has decided that creation is true. As long as he doesn't go try to convince everyone else (waving his holy book) its fine by me. Well you see the problem with teaching creationism is....FOSSILS. Ok, theory destroyed; stop teaching it. If you knew anything about the subject of modern biology and anthropology then you would never have posted this. Remember the Avian bird flu? Maybe not, but in the United States there was a big deal made about it possibly becomming a strain that would infect humans and the question was whether or not we were prepared for it. However, if evolution didn't exist (ITS JUST A THEORY!!!) there would be no need for concern. It's impossible for diseases to evolve into new diseases right? Please Sir, don't ever compare evolution to creationism as equal theories. That's like comparing the theory of relativity to that of Scientologists (Aliens "planted" life on earth long ago). The fact is evolution is NOT a theory anymore. Biologists have witnessed bacteria evolve in a labortory study many times. The only aspect of it that is a theory is whether or not evolution is the source of life on this planet. Side note: It is a fact that the Grand Canyon was carved of millions of years by the now named Colorado River. If you want to argue that the source of the Colorado river is a flood than be my guest. It could just as easily be argued to be rain. I'm sorry sir but you are a moron, have a good day 
Avian bird flu wasnt evolving, it was mutating (its like saying that a guy with a mutation its evolution), for an organism to evolve it needs a major change in his enviroment. some1 correct me if wrong
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Mynorck, notice I said "convincing evidence".
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OOH and Mynock, I really enjoyed that video, thanks for posting. Kinda long, but very substantive. 
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Warding, have you ever heard of the avian flu? There's an example of evolution.
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On August 15 2006 21:17 whatever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2006 19:09 gameguard wrote:
well i guess the example i gave is not really evolution (it just deals with origin of life). What im trying to say is what started the whole thing? It is easy to look back and study how thing work. But can we know how or why the current system was favored? Was it all totally random? How did we end up with the genetic code that is the basis for all the diversity?
can you imagine what the world would be like if, at the beginning, some other form of molecular infrastructure took precedence? Perhaps it would be equally viable. Or maybe we would be zergs. Who knows.
Think of how many random events had to happen in succession to get to where were at right now.
Im not denying the scope of the universe. Sure, Earth could just be one of the billions of stars with habitable conditions that just happend to go through all the right turns in the random series of events, but I just believe God had something to do with it :0 It appears to be random, its all about molecular thermodynamics and such
mutations - the fundamental unit in evolution - IS random. Whether the mutation will be good/bad/neutral is determined by luck and selective force.
What determines selective force? environment. Many environmental changes are random. Cataclismic events lead to emergence of many new species. The species that are available to exploit the new niches could be random. They might have been getting owned by selective force prior to the big change or something.
Evolution as a whole can be seen as being pretty random.
Natural selection (which is indeed determined by probabilities) is just a part of evolution...
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On August 15 2006 21:26 warding wrote:
Mynorck, notice I said "convincing evidence".
Warding is silly. The above evidence convinced me.
How can evidence be convincing when according to this thread half of the US is unconvinced?
I love insertion of meaningless adjectives- the inevitable result whenever someone lacks a legitimate way to qualify their statements
P.S. Just so that I don't pick on wardo all the time...
And it's virii btw.
Viruses.
If Christians had succeeded in what they fought for, the world right now would be flat
Sorry, the earth has been round since pre-Christian times
apparently rock, hip hop, and their prerequisite music are not allowed because drums used to be thought up of as instruments of the devil.
If I wanted to see Satanic incarnations I would go to a percussion concert.
BTW anyone who thinks that the USA is "more Christian" than other Western nations has only a very superficial notion about matters of human belief. Probably until the 50s, evolution had popular currency in very few nations to the extent it had in the US.
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United States24664 Posts
I would guess some people get confused when they hear people say "evolution is random" since that is somewhat misleading. For those of you who thinks that means animals are created randomly and their characteristics are totally random, let me correct you. The random genetic mutations occur regardless of environment. The conditions of the environment determine which of those mutations lead to many generations of offspring. The conditions themselves are often not at all random. It's like rolling a set of dice. Whether you get 2,3,4 etc is totally dictated by random luck. On the other hand, if you roll the dice 20000 times, the distribution of scores is going to align itself nicely with your predictions you made well before you started the experiment. 'Random' often leads to predictable outcomes.
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On August 15 2006 22:05 gameguard wrote:
Evolution as a whole can be seen as being pretty random.
Natural selection (which is indeed determined by probabilities) is just a part of evolution...
Natural selection is not just a part of evolution, it is the process through which evolution works. Without natural selection, there can be no evolution.
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natural selection by itself wont do much..
for example in a world without change. Natural selection will not have anything to work on. kk?
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Sweden33719 Posts
Hm, just wanted to say to CaucasianAsian that I'm sorry for calling you an idiot like that, really it was stupid of me, completely unprovoked too. So, I'm sorry.
And Moltke, are you saying that the US isn't more christian than western european nations like England, Germany, Holland, France, Spain (kinda religious country :D), Italy (kinda religious again :D)?
Maybe it's just from living in sweden (I've never met a person in my entire life who I knew to be religious) that I've gotten this impression that 'over here' we don't care much for religion.
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God created everietingj in 7 days the rest is two compilikated theories and shait like hypothesis and shait who understands sientologist anyways with theyr fancy words and shat. Digging up dirty bones. How dare they quiestion the word of God witch is true for 2000 years. Yeah.
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Evolution is truth. This however does not disprove the existance of a "god" figure. Intelligent design to me isnt that probabal. Personally i like to think i am to "god" what a blood cell is to me. without blood cells i would die, and allthought im not aware of their indivudal existance they still allow me to exist. Or purhaps god is a baby and is using us to learn amodel of what existance should be. What i do know is simply God doesn't answer for some reason or another, The universe is too percise in its laws to have been the result of random events, The likleyness that the universe could randomly meet all the conditions to support life is improbable.
We would not exist without a god, Likewise a god could not exist without us.
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Canada9720 Posts
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On August 15 2006 22:10 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2006 21:26 warding wrote:
Mynorck, notice I said "convincing evidence". Warding is silly. The above evidence convinced me. How can evidence be convincing when according to this thread half of the US is unconvinced?
To be convinced of something you have to know and understand it. This thread is pretty much evidence that evolution is not really well understood among the general population, and the sample we've got here is probably better educated than the average.
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you also have a president that won't allow stem cell research.
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As much as I may be a red-blooded American patriot to the core...I must agree that we are nuts if it is indeed true that the majority of Americans doesn't "believe" in evolution.
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On August 16 2006 10:13 doedrikthe2nd wrote:
you also have a president that won't allow stem cell research.
He does not allow public funds to be used in stem cell research. He does allow private stem cell research.
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Let's be honest here. The reason that evolution (an science in a broader sense) are often rejected by many is that science implies a number of things:
1. You are fucking stupid and you don't know shit about anything. Most philosophers would probably agree too.
2. On a larger scale, the society you live and the values it espouses through religion is all bullshit as well.
I am not conciliatory at all when it comes to things like religion. It is painfully obvious from the understanding of science we have now and what we can deduce from human nature that ALL modern religion is formed on the shit ramblings of misinformed people. You wouldn't take advice on which CPU was the hottest from your grandfather- why would you take guidance on life from a time when people thought there were witches, ghosts, Sun around Earth?
Science DOES contradicts religion. The Earth revolves around the Sun. Yet, somehow, we brush off ALL these FAILURES of religion and somehow come back to accepting them.
Does this mean that religion does not have a role in human society? No, not necessarily- religion might be built specifically for the organized interactions of our species- because it is not reasonable to expect everyone to be in the priveleged position to be intelligent and have had the opportuntity to become learned. So the issue simply becomes the contradiction of maintaining a false, but necessary system vs the truth that we have began to develop aggressively in the last 100 years.
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On August 16 2006 10:53 naventus wrote:
Science DOES contradicts religion.
There are several Eastern religions which science does not contradict.
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EPT
