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On July 13 2013 22:36 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 21:40 Reason wrote:On July 13 2013 21:27 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 21:09 Reason wrote:On July 13 2013 21:05 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 20:39 Reason wrote:On July 13 2013 20:05 xM(Z wrote:how does - Determinism implies predictability, not purposelessness. If you want to decide that events have no value if they are predictable that's your own business but again nothing to do with determinism. even make sense? what value would those predictable events have?. who would give them value? The question is not what value those predictable events have, or who would give them value. The question is, what value do unpredictable events have, or who would give them value. The point in this question is to demonstrate that there is no difference between events that can or cannot be predicted in terms of value, value is not an inherent quality deterministic events possess or lack, rather something that is attributed by an individual based on their own set of beliefs or lack thereof. The idea here is that you realise saying stuff like "lol everything is deterministic so nothing means anything" is completely stupid even when used in half-jest, it's a complete misunderstanding of determinism or a completely outrageous attempt to pretend your own personal system for attributing value somehow logically follows if determinism is true. first, no one was talking about unpredictable events. there is nothing unpredictable in determinism unless you are talking about compatibilism which is a different story all together. value is not an inherent quality deterministic events possess or lack, rather something that is attributed by an individual based on their own set of beliefs or lack thereof. what you said there implies a degree of freedom outside (unaffected by) determinism. second, just admit it. you believe in a god and his name is determinism. there's no shame in that. i also believe in a god but his name is I. Okay, since you didn't understand my full explanation, I'll just give you the simple version. You asked me what value predictable events have, and who would give them value? My answer is determinism does not make value judgements, people do. I don't actually believe in determinism and I haven't stated otherwise so to claim I view determinism as my God is laughable along with virtually all your posts. - but people are determined to make those judgements ... based on what other authority could people make judgements in a deterministic world? else it ends here first, no one was talking about unpredictable events. there is nothing unpredictable in determinism unless you are talking about compatibilism which is a different story all together. Actually it ends with you making it clear you don't understand what determinism means and me deciding to stop wasting my time on you. Conversation speaks for itself. nope, you fail to define the missing links between your deterministic processes. how, or based on what do you connect two deterministic processes/events?.
I haven't failed to do anything. What missing links are you referring to?
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On July 13 2013 22:31 Reason wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 21:46 TSORG wrote:On July 13 2013 21:09 Reason wrote:
The justice system anywhere, anytime, can be neatly summed up:
1. Punish the guilty
to
a. Serve justice.
b. Deter other criminals.
Either you agree with me on that, or you don't.
I have disagreed, though I have acknowledged b) as a effect of a). But what my question to Rassy pretty much amounted to is, what does a) mean in a deterministic world? Because our notion of justice, afaik, implies that we are responsible for our actions which we deliberately make. Ofcourse in a deterministic world there can still be punishment, we punish dogs as well, even if we acknowledge that the beast is acting upon his instincts and its action was not deliberate. But when we put down a dog because it bit a babe for example, we do not call it justice. Now perhaps I am misunderstanding some key notion about determinism, if so, please explain it to me. Thats all I was asking him, and now you. Why are you asking Rassy about what justice means in a deterministic world? In order to deter criminal acts you must punish the criminals, whether justice would technically be possible or not in a deterministic universe isn't really relevant.
I know it isnt, but one of his posts implied that he did have a relevant notion, which is why this entire thing started in the first place. But, as it turned out, it was part of a larger misunderstanding. Pretty much similar to the discussion we are having now.
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The justice system also can rehabilitate criminals. It's not like rehabilitation doesn't work in determinism...
On July 13 2013 22:37 Reason wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 22:36 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 21:40 Reason wrote:On July 13 2013 21:27 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 21:09 Reason wrote:On July 13 2013 21:05 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 20:39 Reason wrote:On July 13 2013 20:05 xM(Z wrote:how does - Determinism implies predictability, not purposelessness. If you want to decide that events have no value if they are predictable that's your own business but again nothing to do with determinism. even make sense? what value would those predictable events have?. who would give them value? The question is not what value those predictable events have, or who would give them value. The question is, what value do unpredictable events have, or who would give them value. The point in this question is to demonstrate that there is no difference between events that can or cannot be predicted in terms of value, value is not an inherent quality deterministic events possess or lack, rather something that is attributed by an individual based on their own set of beliefs or lack thereof. The idea here is that you realise saying stuff like "lol everything is deterministic so nothing means anything" is completely stupid even when used in half-jest, it's a complete misunderstanding of determinism or a completely outrageous attempt to pretend your own personal system for attributing value somehow logically follows if determinism is true. first, no one was talking about unpredictable events. there is nothing unpredictable in determinism unless you are talking about compatibilism which is a different story all together. value is not an inherent quality deterministic events possess or lack, rather something that is attributed by an individual based on their own set of beliefs or lack thereof. what you said there implies a degree of freedom outside (unaffected by) determinism. second, just admit it. you believe in a god and his name is determinism. there's no shame in that. i also believe in a god but his name is I. Okay, since you didn't understand my full explanation, I'll just give you the simple version. You asked me what value predictable events have, and who would give them value? My answer is determinism does not make value judgements, people do. I don't actually believe in determinism and I haven't stated otherwise so to claim I view determinism as my God is laughable along with virtually all your posts. - but people are determined to make those judgements ... based on what other authority could people make judgements in a deterministic world? else it ends here first, no one was talking about unpredictable events. there is nothing unpredictable in determinism unless you are talking about compatibilism which is a different story all together. Actually it ends with you making it clear you don't understand what determinism means and me deciding to stop wasting my time on you. Conversation speaks for itself. nope, you fail to define the missing links between your deterministic processes. how, or based on what do you connect two deterministic processes/events?. I haven't failed to do anything. What missing links are you referring to?
Stop responding to him dude. It's only going to get weirder for you. Seriously, look at the progression of his responses.
And in compatibilism nothing is unpredictable. Compatibilism means that the world is deterministic AND we have free will. Or - saying it a bit differently - we have as much free will as we could possibly ever want.
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On July 13 2013 22:37 Reason wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 22:36 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 21:40 Reason wrote:On July 13 2013 21:27 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 21:09 Reason wrote:On July 13 2013 21:05 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 20:39 Reason wrote:On July 13 2013 20:05 xM(Z wrote:how does - Determinism implies predictability, not purposelessness. If you want to decide that events have no value if they are predictable that's your own business but again nothing to do with determinism. even make sense? what value would those predictable events have?. who would give them value? The question is not what value those predictable events have, or who would give them value. The question is, what value do unpredictable events have, or who would give them value. The point in this question is to demonstrate that there is no difference between events that can or cannot be predicted in terms of value, value is not an inherent quality deterministic events possess or lack, rather something that is attributed by an individual based on their own set of beliefs or lack thereof. The idea here is that you realise saying stuff like "lol everything is deterministic so nothing means anything" is completely stupid even when used in half-jest, it's a complete misunderstanding of determinism or a completely outrageous attempt to pretend your own personal system for attributing value somehow logically follows if determinism is true. first, no one was talking about unpredictable events. there is nothing unpredictable in determinism unless you are talking about compatibilism which is a different story all together. value is not an inherent quality deterministic events possess or lack, rather something that is attributed by an individual based on their own set of beliefs or lack thereof. what you said there implies a degree of freedom outside (unaffected by) determinism. second, just admit it. you believe in a god and his name is determinism. there's no shame in that. i also believe in a god but his name is I. Okay, since you didn't understand my full explanation, I'll just give you the simple version. You asked me what value predictable events have, and who would give them value? My answer is determinism does not make value judgements, people do. I don't actually believe in determinism and I haven't stated otherwise so to claim I view determinism as my God is laughable along with virtually all your posts. - but people are determined to make those judgements ... based on what other authority could people make judgements in a deterministic world? else it ends here first, no one was talking about unpredictable events. there is nothing unpredictable in determinism unless you are talking about compatibilism which is a different story all together. Actually it ends with you making it clear you don't understand what determinism means and me deciding to stop wasting my time on you. Conversation speaks for itself. nope, you fail to define the missing links between your deterministic processes. how, or based on what do you connect two deterministic processes/events?. I haven't failed to do anything. What missing links are you referring to?
i'll take it slow then. you said value is not an inherent quality deterministic events possess or lack, rather something that is attributed by an individual based on their own set of beliefs or lack thereof.
question: how would an individual come to have those believes or those non-believes?. what kind of event would give them those (non)believes?. (ps: in a deterministic world. we're not talking about compatibility here)
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On July 13 2013 23:21 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 22:37 Reason wrote:On July 13 2013 22:36 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 21:40 Reason wrote:On July 13 2013 21:27 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 21:09 Reason wrote:On July 13 2013 21:05 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 20:39 Reason wrote:On July 13 2013 20:05 xM(Z wrote:how does - Determinism implies predictability, not purposelessness. If you want to decide that events have no value if they are predictable that's your own business but again nothing to do with determinism. even make sense? what value would those predictable events have?. who would give them value? The question is not what value those predictable events have, or who would give them value. The question is, what value do unpredictable events have, or who would give them value. The point in this question is to demonstrate that there is no difference between events that can or cannot be predicted in terms of value, value is not an inherent quality deterministic events possess or lack, rather something that is attributed by an individual based on their own set of beliefs or lack thereof. The idea here is that you realise saying stuff like "lol everything is deterministic so nothing means anything" is completely stupid even when used in half-jest, it's a complete misunderstanding of determinism or a completely outrageous attempt to pretend your own personal system for attributing value somehow logically follows if determinism is true. first, no one was talking about unpredictable events. there is nothing unpredictable in determinism unless you are talking about compatibilism which is a different story all together. value is not an inherent quality deterministic events possess or lack, rather something that is attributed by an individual based on their own set of beliefs or lack thereof. what you said there implies a degree of freedom outside (unaffected by) determinism. second, just admit it. you believe in a god and his name is determinism. there's no shame in that. i also believe in a god but his name is I. Okay, since you didn't understand my full explanation, I'll just give you the simple version. You asked me what value predictable events have, and who would give them value? My answer is determinism does not make value judgements, people do. I don't actually believe in determinism and I haven't stated otherwise so to claim I view determinism as my God is laughable along with virtually all your posts. - but people are determined to make those judgements ... based on what other authority could people make judgements in a deterministic world? else it ends here first, no one was talking about unpredictable events. there is nothing unpredictable in determinism unless you are talking about compatibilism which is a different story all together. Actually it ends with you making it clear you don't understand what determinism means and me deciding to stop wasting my time on you. Conversation speaks for itself. nope, you fail to define the missing links between your deterministic processes. how, or based on what do you connect two deterministic processes/events?. I haven't failed to do anything. What missing links are you referring to? i'll take it slow then. you said Show nested quote +value is not an inherent quality deterministic events possess or lack, rather something that is attributed by an individual based on their own set of beliefs or lack thereof. question: how would an individual come to have those believes or those non-believes?. what kind of event would give them those (non)believes?. (ps: in a deterministic world. we're not talking about compatibility here)
You asked me a question before and I did my best to give you an answer but apparently it wasn't good enough, so I apologise if I'm "too slow" for you. Lol. You can however help me by answering the following question first....
What I'm saying is that events taking place in a deterministic universe do not have more or less value than those taking place in a nondeterministic universe because value is something that is attributed by people and not an inherent quality of an event.
Do you disagree with this? If so, why?
edit: Before I said "value is not an inherent quality deterministic events possess or lack, rather something that is attributed by an individual based on their own set of beliefs or lack thereof."
This doesn't conflict with determinism, I think that's where you're confusing yourself.
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On July 01 2013 10:11 electronic voyeur wrote:
Life is complex, we all get that. Let's focus a bit more, human beings, of all human life forms, is arguably the most complex one, having the only faculty of consciousness capable of complex language, ideas, architecture, composing orchestral pieces, feeling depressed, feel depressed about feeling depressed, writing novels, haikus, building a computer, cloning animals, brain studying itself, appreciating the sunset, and more.
This begs the question, and even impoverishes imagination if you really think hard about it, are all these things, art, architecture, the internet, religion, sociological theory, space rocket, Einstein's thought experiments, emotions, dance, self-reflection merely products of chemical and electrical impulses in the human brain?
To be more exact - is the mind, in all its complexity, physical, the is, the chemical and electric networks in the brain? What about morality, love, ideas, empathy, compassion, imagination? Are these mere byproducts of physiological processes that are in a way similar to the chemical and electrical impulses experienced by other animals?
What are your thoughts? Is the mind all physical?
If you're asking whether people think that we have "souls" or something of that like, obviously you could understand why this is a complicated topic. Excluding this, saying that the brain is electrical and chemical signals is an accurate statement (albeit hugely oversimplified and elementary - doesn't really do justice to the complexity) and no one could really argue with you given the scientific communities current understanding (supported by overwhelming evidence). It was only in the 1st half of the 20th century that scientists finally agreed that both types of processes (chemical/electrical) were present and highly required in brain functioning (one more so than the other however).
Source: Levitan, I.B., Kaczmarek, L.K. The Neuron: Cell and Molecular Biology 2nd ed. Oxford University Press, NYC, NY 1997.
(I'm also a biochemist if anyone is interested in learning more about topics of this type. I have an extensive background in this type of field and a number of recent texts to support any inquiries with)
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@TSORG
your argument is based around the definition/meaning of word like "justice", "responsibility", "free will" and so on. They are just words, they all had different meaning though time and depending of the society. Most people would not even agree on the definition of those words. They are also heavily influenced by religion. Yes, some of them would probably lose their meaning if you believed in a deterministic world, or at least their meaning would have to be changed, but why does it matter ? Do you think it is something worth arguing about ?
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On July 13 2013 23:55 DertoQq wrote:
@TSORG
your argument is based around the definition/meaning of word like "justice", "responsibility", "free will" and so on. They are just words, they all had different meaning though time and depending of the society. Most people would not even agree on the definition of those words. They are also heavily influenced by religion. Yes, some of them would probably lose their meaning if you believed in a deterministic world, or at least their meaning would have to be changed, but why does it matter ? Do you think it is something worth arguing about ?
Hmm that was poorly phrased. I suppose it doesnt matter in the end. Little of what is discussed here matters. I just noticed something I thought odd and wanted to talk about it. However, I have already got the answer, part of it from you, that was satisfying enough.
They are also heavily influenced by religion
You say this as if that is a bad thing by definition. Yes these words are part of a long tradition within western thought, including christian scholasticism, but this true for many other words, atom, truth, proof come to mind. Not that you are saying this, but to think of our current ideas and thoughts and methods (of science) are a complete rift with the past is to completely disregard history and the tradition these ideas evolved from..
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On July 14 2013 00:01 TSORG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 23:55 DertoQq wrote:
@TSORG
your argument is based around the definition/meaning of word like "justice", "responsibility", "free will" and so on. They are just words, they all had different meaning though time and depending of the society. Most people would not even agree on the definition of those words. They are also heavily influenced by religion. Yes, some of them would probably lose their meaning if you believed in a deterministic world, or at least their meaning would have to be changed, but why does it matter ? Do you think it is something worth arguing about ? I do think so, because I don't believe we live in a (fully) deterministic world, even though I cannot adequately defend that belief I think, but the opposite, the arguments proposed by determinists dont really convince me either. However, I have already got the answer, part of it from you, that I was satisfying enough.
Quick question for non-determinists in the room: How exactly does your non-deterministic free will manifest itself?
The reason I ask is because I feel based on my experiences that myself and the people around me are generally pretty rational. When I do things I tend to have a reason for doing them. I should think that if somebody got to know me well enough they could very accurately predict how I might react/think/feel to/about a certain event. Does this alone mean I don't have free will?
Te me it seems like wanting free will is nothing more than wanting the ability to throw the universe a curve ball by doing something which makes absolutely no sense. But if you're just acting in a way that's chaotic, are you really exercising control, and are you absolutely sure it couldn't be explained? Tomorrow morning you might decide to forgo the sugar in your coffee because, you know, fuck the universe or something, but I think it could be very easily explained that you were reading this thread, felt the need to control your destiny when you woke up, and acted on this feeling by changing some part of your normal routine (any maybe you had a conversation you'd forgotten with somebody a couple days earlier about how not putting sugar in your coffee was better for you).
I just don't really understand how exactly free will would manifest itself, and if i did, how it would do so in a way that wasn't entirely trivial.
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On July 14 2013 00:16 YumYumGranola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 00:01 TSORG wrote:On July 13 2013 23:55 DertoQq wrote:
@TSORG
your argument is based around the definition/meaning of word like "justice", "responsibility", "free will" and so on. They are just words, they all had different meaning though time and depending of the society. Most people would not even agree on the definition of those words. They are also heavily influenced by religion. Yes, some of them would probably lose their meaning if you believed in a deterministic world, or at least their meaning would have to be changed, but why does it matter ? Do you think it is something worth arguing about ? I do think so, because I don't believe we live in a (fully) deterministic world, even though I cannot adequately defend that belief I think, but the opposite, the arguments proposed by determinists dont really convince me either. However, I have already got the answer, part of it from you, that I was satisfying enough. Quick question for non-determinists in the room: How exactly does your non-deterministic free will manifest itself? The reason I ask is because I feel based on my experiences that myself and the people around me are generally pretty rational. When I do things I tend to have a reason for doing them. I should think that if somebody got to know me well enough they could very accurately predict how I might react/think/feel to/about a certain event. Does this alone mean I don't have free will? Te me it seems like wanting free will is nothing more than wanting the ability to throw the universe a curve ball by doing something which makes absolutely no sense. But if you're just acting in a way that's chaotic, are you really exercising control, and are you absolutely sure it couldn't be explained? Tomorrow morning you might decide to forgo the sugar in your coffee because, you know, fuck the universe or something, but I think it could be very easily explained that you were reading this thread, felt the need to control your destiny when you woke up, and acted on this feeling by changing some part of your normal routine (any maybe you had a conversation you'd forgotten with somebody a couple days earlier about how not putting sugar in your coffee was better for you). I just don't really understand how exactly free will would manifest itself, and if i did, how it would do so in a way that wasn't entirely trivial.
Hmm i dont know for sure, i have not come to a conclusion about the existance of free will in a stochastic world.
It looks difficult to introduce free will in such a world without relying on something non physical and i am inclined to believe that free will is an ilusion.(like it is in a deterministic world, at least imo)
But to keep it physical it could maybe work like this. I can decide to say "fuck the universe i am not having sugar in my cofee today" based on something random, inside or outside my brain. I could for example role a quantum dice and then decide that i take no sugar if i role a 6, and i take sugar when i role a 5 or anny other number, my freedom of will would then lie in the ability to change the odds for a certain decission. i could also decide to take no sugar when i role a 5 or 6 instead of only a 6.
Even if the way in wich i change the odds is predetermined, the outcome will still be random and non deterministic.though the way in wich i change the odds might also be based on another random event.
But if you're just acting in a way that's chaotic, are you really exercising control, and are you absolutely sure it couldn't be explained
I do strongly believe that mankind in general behaves in a chaotic way, People make "wrong" choices and choises they regret all the time.They are not excersising control at all.
The only way to explain these wrong choises in a deterministic world is by asuming that people dont have the ability to calculate and forsee all the effects of their choise precisely,but if these effects cant be calculated precisely, then you might as well say that the choise for some action with the desire for a specific effect is random for thoose people, or at least has a random result. It seems difficult for me to say that people exercise control in such a situation.
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On July 13 2013 22:30 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 22:02 Snusmumriken wrote:On July 13 2013 21:22 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 21:11 Snusmumriken wrote:On July 13 2013 21:05 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 20:39 Reason wrote:On July 13 2013 20:05 xM(Z wrote:how does - Determinism implies predictability, not purposelessness. If you want to decide that events have no value if they are predictable that's your own business but again nothing to do with determinism. even make sense? what value would those predictable events have?. who would give them value? The question is not what value those predictable events have, or who would give them value. The question is, what value do unpredictable events have, or who would give them value. The point in this question is to demonstrate that there is no difference between events that can or cannot be predicted in terms of value, value is not an inherent quality deterministic events possess or lack, rather something that is attributed by an individual based on their own set of beliefs or lack thereof. The idea here is that you realise saying stuff like "lol everything is deterministic so nothing means anything" is completely stupid even when used in half-jest, it's a complete misunderstanding of determinism or a completely outrageous attempt to pretend your own personal system for attributing value somehow logically follows if determinism is true. first, no one was talking about unpredictable events. there is nothing unpredictable in determinism unless you are talking about compatibilism which is a different story all together. value is not an inherent quality deterministic events possess or lack, rather something that is attributed by an individual based on their own set of beliefs or lack thereof. what you said there implies a degree of freedom outside (unaffected by) determinism. second, just admit it. you believe in a god and his name is determinism. there's no shame in that. i also believe in a god but his name is I. what the hell are you talking about? that was the allegory of determinism vs free will in a nutshell. internal god vs external god. determinism and free will or values or whatever else youve been talking about are as mutually exclusive as pasta and tomatoes. Just sayin  or, OR, you can't have one without the other. meaning, both exist. just saying pure determinism would drive itself to extinction. pure free will would drive itself to extinction. but just see the irony of it all: either both exist or neither of them. contradictory ideas/concepts/believes forced to coexist in an evolutionary dance. free willys are energy while determinists are matter. it's almost poetic.
1. Determinism does not entail free will. Free will may require determinism (on some level) but determinism doesnt require free will. In fact no philosopher ever has argued so, because it makes as much sense as saying you cant have clay without a pot simply because you cant have a claypot without clay.
2. Not trying to be a douche but "pure determinism would drive itself to extinction". Retard alert
3. Free willy:
![[image loading]](http://jessperaza.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/freewilly1.jpg)
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On July 14 2013 01:21 Rassy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 00:16 YumYumGranola wrote:On July 14 2013 00:01 TSORG wrote:On July 13 2013 23:55 DertoQq wrote:
@TSORG
your argument is based around the definition/meaning of word like "justice", "responsibility", "free will" and so on. They are just words, they all had different meaning though time and depending of the society. Most people would not even agree on the definition of those words. They are also heavily influenced by religion. Yes, some of them would probably lose their meaning if you believed in a deterministic world, or at least their meaning would have to be changed, but why does it matter ? Do you think it is something worth arguing about ? I do think so, because I don't believe we live in a (fully) deterministic world, even though I cannot adequately defend that belief I think, but the opposite, the arguments proposed by determinists dont really convince me either. However, I have already got the answer, part of it from you, that I was satisfying enough. Quick question for non-determinists in the room: How exactly does your non-deterministic free will manifest itself? The reason I ask is because I feel based on my experiences that myself and the people around me are generally pretty rational. When I do things I tend to have a reason for doing them. I should think that if somebody got to know me well enough they could very accurately predict how I might react/think/feel to/about a certain event. Does this alone mean I don't have free will? Te me it seems like wanting free will is nothing more than wanting the ability to throw the universe a curve ball by doing something which makes absolutely no sense. But if you're just acting in a way that's chaotic, are you really exercising control, and are you absolutely sure it couldn't be explained? Tomorrow morning you might decide to forgo the sugar in your coffee because, you know, fuck the universe or something, but I think it could be very easily explained that you were reading this thread, felt the need to control your destiny when you woke up, and acted on this feeling by changing some part of your normal routine (any maybe you had a conversation you'd forgotten with somebody a couple days earlier about how not putting sugar in your coffee was better for you). I just don't really understand how exactly free will would manifest itself, and if i did, how it would do so in a way that wasn't entirely trivial. Hmm i dont know for sure, i have not come to a conclusion about the existance of free will in a stochastic world. It looks difficult to introduce free will in such a world without relying on something non physical and i am inclined to believe that free will is an ilusion.(like it is in a deterministic world, at least imo) But to keep it physical it could maybe work like this. I can decide to say "fuck the universe i am not having sugar in my cofee today" based on something random, inside or outside my brain. I could for example role a quantum dice and then decide that i take no sugar if i role a 6, and i take sugar when i role a 5 or anny other number, my freedom of will would then lie in the ability to change the odds for a certain decission. i could also decide to take no sugar when i role a 5 or 6 instead of only a 6. Even if the way in wich i change the odds is predetermined, the outcome will still be random and non deterministic.though the way in wich i change the odds might also be based on another random event. But if you're just acting in a way that's chaotic, are you really exercising control, and are you absolutely sure it couldn't be explained I do strongly believe that mankind in general behaves in a chaotic way, People make "wrong" choices and choises they regret all the time.They are not excersising control at all. The only way to explain these wrong choises in a deterministic world is by asuming that people dont have the ability to calculate and forsee all the effects of their choise precisely,but if these effects cant be calculated precisely, then you might as well say that the choise for some action with the desire for a specific effect is random for thoose people, or at least has a random result. It seems difficult for me to say that people exercise control in such a situation.
That people can't foresee all the effects of their actions is a truism in a complex word. There is no mystery as to whether we sometimes make wrong choices irrespective of determinism. But in order for your proposal for free will to make any sense this influence we excercise to change probabilities cannot itself be a dice roll, right? In fact it would need to lawfully determine the probabilities according to your intentions to provide control. Don't you see then how you are describing a deterministic process for probability calculation and aim to locate the freedom there!? Now you just need to see that the dice roll becomes redundant and you got why compatibilism provides the only coherent view on the matter. Cheers!
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On July 14 2013 00:01 TSORG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 23:55 DertoQq wrote:
@TSORG
your argument is based around the definition/meaning of word like "justice", "responsibility", "free will" and so on. They are just words, they all had different meaning though time and depending of the society. Most people would not even agree on the definition of those words. They are also heavily influenced by religion. Yes, some of them would probably lose their meaning if you believed in a deterministic world, or at least their meaning would have to be changed, but why does it matter ? Do you think it is something worth arguing about ? Hmm that was poorly phrased. I suppose it doesnt matter in the end. Little of what is discussed here matters. I just noticed something I thought odd and wanted to talk about it. However, I have already got the answer, part of it from you, that was satisfying enough. You say this as if that is a bad thing by definition. Yes these words are part of a long tradition within western thought, including christian scholasticism, but this true for many other words, atom, truth, proof come to mind. Not that you are saying this, but to think of our current ideas and thoughts and methods (of science) are a complete rift with the past is to completely disregard history and the tradition these ideas evolved from..
I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but if you use "religion" influenced term in order to explain something that only work in a world where metaphysical stuff don't exist, then you are going to end in a dead end.
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On July 14 2013 02:46 DertoQq wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 00:01 TSORG wrote:On July 13 2013 23:55 DertoQq wrote:
@TSORG
your argument is based around the definition/meaning of word like "justice", "responsibility", "free will" and so on. They are just words, they all had different meaning though time and depending of the society. Most people would not even agree on the definition of those words. They are also heavily influenced by religion. Yes, some of them would probably lose their meaning if you believed in a deterministic world, or at least their meaning would have to be changed, but why does it matter ? Do you think it is something worth arguing about ? Hmm that was poorly phrased. I suppose it doesnt matter in the end. Little of what is discussed here matters. I just noticed something I thought odd and wanted to talk about it. However, I have already got the answer, part of it from you, that was satisfying enough. They are also heavily influenced by religion You say this as if that is a bad thing by definition. Yes these words are part of a long tradition within western thought, including christian scholasticism, but this true for many other words, atom, truth, proof come to mind. Not that you are saying this, but to think of our current ideas and thoughts and methods (of science) are a complete rift with the past is to completely disregard history and the tradition these ideas evolved from.. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but if you use "religion" influenced term in order to explain something that only work in a world where metaphysical stuff don't exist, then you are going to end in a dead end.
im sorry misread. you are correct. allthough the way you say it is kind of confusing.
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I hope you guys realize that you can have stochastic worlds without violating determinism. See: Everett branches and Many Worlds interpretations of quantum physics.
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On July 14 2013 01:43 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 22:30 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 22:02 Snusmumriken wrote:On July 13 2013 21:22 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 21:11 Snusmumriken wrote:On July 13 2013 21:05 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 20:39 Reason wrote:On July 13 2013 20:05 xM(Z wrote:how does - Determinism implies predictability, not purposelessness. If you want to decide that events have no value if they are predictable that's your own business but again nothing to do with determinism. even make sense? what value would those predictable events have?. who would give them value? The question is not what value those predictable events have, or who would give them value. The question is, what value do unpredictable events have, or who would give them value. The point in this question is to demonstrate that there is no difference between events that can or cannot be predicted in terms of value, value is not an inherent quality deterministic events possess or lack, rather something that is attributed by an individual based on their own set of beliefs or lack thereof. The idea here is that you realise saying stuff like "lol everything is deterministic so nothing means anything" is completely stupid even when used in half-jest, it's a complete misunderstanding of determinism or a completely outrageous attempt to pretend your own personal system for attributing value somehow logically follows if determinism is true. first, no one was talking about unpredictable events. there is nothing unpredictable in determinism unless you are talking about compatibilism which is a different story all together. value is not an inherent quality deterministic events possess or lack, rather something that is attributed by an individual based on their own set of beliefs or lack thereof. what you said there implies a degree of freedom outside (unaffected by) determinism. second, just admit it. you believe in a god and his name is determinism. there's no shame in that. i also believe in a god but his name is I. what the hell are you talking about? that was the allegory of determinism vs free will in a nutshell. internal god vs external god. determinism and free will or values or whatever else youve been talking about are as mutually exclusive as pasta and tomatoes. Just sayin or, OR, you can't have one without the other. meaning, both exist. just saying pure determinism would drive itself to extinction. pure free will would drive itself to extinction. but just see the irony of it all: either both exist or neither of them. contradictory ideas/concepts/believes forced to coexist in an evolutionary dance. free willys are energy while determinists are matter. it's almost poetic. 1. Determinism does not entail free will. Free will may require determinism (on some level) but determinism doesnt require free will. In fact no philosopher ever has argued so, because it makes as much sense as saying you cant have clay without a pot simply because you cant have a claypot without clay.
and i had such high hopes for you ...
- you'll have clay and you'll have pot. then wait until they'll determine themselves to make a clay pot. /clap
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On July 13 2013 23:35 Reason wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 23:21 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 22:37 Reason wrote:On July 13 2013 22:36 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 21:40 Reason wrote:On July 13 2013 21:27 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 21:09 Reason wrote:On July 13 2013 21:05 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 20:39 Reason wrote:On July 13 2013 20:05 xM(Z wrote:
how does [quote]even make sense?
what value would those predictable events have?. who would give them value? The question is not what value those predictable events have, or who would give them value. The question is, what value do unpredictable events have, or who would give them value. The point in this question is to demonstrate that there is no difference between events that can or cannot be predicted in terms of value, value is not an inherent quality deterministic events possess or lack, rather something that is attributed by an individual based on their own set of beliefs or lack thereof. The idea here is that you realise saying stuff like "lol everything is deterministic so nothing means anything" is completely stupid even when used in half-jest, it's a complete misunderstanding of determinism or a completely outrageous attempt to pretend your own personal system for attributing value somehow logically follows if determinism is true. first, no one was talking about unpredictable events. there is nothing unpredictable in determinism unless you are talking about compatibilism which is a different story all together. value is not an inherent quality deterministic events possess or lack, rather something that is attributed by an individual based on their own set of beliefs or lack thereof. what you said there implies a degree of freedom outside (unaffected by) determinism. second, just admit it. you believe in a god and his name is determinism. there's no shame in that. i also believe in a god but his name is I. Okay, since you didn't understand my full explanation, I'll just give you the simple version. You asked me what value predictable events have, and who would give them value? My answer is determinism does not make value judgements, people do. I don't actually believe in determinism and I haven't stated otherwise so to claim I view determinism as my God is laughable along with virtually all your posts. - but people are determined to make those judgements ... based on what other authority could people make judgements in a deterministic world? else it ends here first, no one was talking about unpredictable events. there is nothing unpredictable in determinism unless you are talking about compatibilism which is a different story all together. Actually it ends with you making it clear you don't understand what determinism means and me deciding to stop wasting my time on you. Conversation speaks for itself. nope, you fail to define the missing links between your deterministic processes. how, or based on what do you connect two deterministic processes/events?. I haven't failed to do anything. What missing links are you referring to? i'll take it slow then. you said value is not an inherent quality deterministic events possess or lack, rather something that is attributed by an individual based on their own set of beliefs or lack thereof. question: how would an individual come to have those believes or those non-believes?. what kind of event would give them those (non)believes?. (ps: in a deterministic world. we're not talking about compatibility here) You asked me a question before and I did my best to give you an answer but apparently it wasn't good enough, so I apologise if I'm "too slow" for you. Lol. You can however help me by answering the following question first.... What I'm saying is that events taking place in a deterministic universe do not have more or less value than those taking place in a nondeterministic universe because value is something that is attributed by people and not an inherent quality of an event. Do you disagree with this? If so, why? edit: Before I said "value is not an inherent quality deterministic events possess or lack, rather something that is attributed by an individual based on their own set of beliefs or lack thereof." This doesn't conflict with determinism, I think that's where you're confusing yourself.
agree on a definition:
- Determinism is a metaphysical philosophical position stating that for everything that happens there are conditions such that, given those conditions, nothing else could happen
- Determinism often is taken to mean simply causal determinism, which in physics is the idea known as cause-and-effect.
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I read the first thread and thought this was a topic I could contribute to, obviously not after reading recent posts.. 
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On July 14 2013 06:01 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 23:35 Reason wrote:On July 13 2013 23:21 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 22:37 Reason wrote:On July 13 2013 22:36 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 21:40 Reason wrote:On July 13 2013 21:27 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 21:09 Reason wrote:On July 13 2013 21:05 xM(Z wrote:On July 13 2013 20:39 Reason wrote:
[quote]
The question is not what value those predictable events have, or who would give them value.
The question is, what value do unpredictable events have, or who would give them value.
The point in this question is to demonstrate that there is no difference between events that can or cannot be predicted in terms of value, value is not an inherent quality deterministic events possess or lack, rather something that is attributed by an individual based on their own set of beliefs or lack thereof.
The idea here is that you realise saying stuff like "lol everything is deterministic so nothing means anything" is completely stupid even when used in half-jest, it's a complete misunderstanding of determinism or a completely outrageous attempt to pretend your own personal system for attributing value somehow logically follows if determinism is true. first, no one was talking about unpredictable events. there is nothing unpredictable in determinism unless you are talking about compatibilism which is a different story all together. value is not an inherent quality deterministic events possess or lack, rather something that is attributed by an individual based on their own set of beliefs or lack thereof. what you said there implies a degree of freedom outside (unaffected by) determinism. second, just admit it. you believe in a god and his name is determinism. there's no shame in that. i also believe in a god but his name is I. Okay, since you didn't understand my full explanation, I'll just give you the simple version. You asked me what value predictable events have, and who would give them value? My answer is determinism does not make value judgements, people do. I don't actually believe in determinism and I haven't stated otherwise so to claim I view determinism as my God is laughable along with virtually all your posts. - but people are determined to make those judgements ... based on what other authority could people make judgements in a deterministic world? else it ends here first, no one was talking about unpredictable events. there is nothing unpredictable in determinism unless you are talking about compatibilism which is a different story all together. Actually it ends with you making it clear you don't understand what determinism means and me deciding to stop wasting my time on you. Conversation speaks for itself. nope, you fail to define the missing links between your deterministic processes. how, or based on what do you connect two deterministic processes/events?. I haven't failed to do anything. What missing links are you referring to? i'll take it slow then. you said value is not an inherent quality deterministic events possess or lack, rather something that is attributed by an individual based on their own set of beliefs or lack thereof. question: how would an individual come to have those believes or those non-believes?. what kind of event would give them those (non)believes?. (ps: in a deterministic world. we're not talking about compatibility here) You asked me a question before and I did my best to give you an answer but apparently it wasn't good enough, so I apologise if I'm "too slow" for you. Lol. You can however help me by answering the following question first.... What I'm saying is that events taking place in a deterministic universe do not have more or less value than those taking place in a nondeterministic universe because value is something that is attributed by people and not an inherent quality of an event. Do you disagree with this? If so, why? edit: Before I said "value is not an inherent quality deterministic events possess or lack, rather something that is attributed by an individual based on their own set of beliefs or lack thereof." This doesn't conflict with determinism, I think that's where you're confusing yourself. agree on a definition: - Determinism is a metaphysical philosophical position stating that for everything that happens there are conditions such that, given those conditions, nothing else could happen - Determinism often is taken to mean simply causal determinism, which in physics is the idea known as cause-and-effect.
Causal determinism.
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I'll tell you what...Bupropion is the shiznit. WASSUP!~ /mind mind mind. Electro neural stimulation feeding my broad skeptiscism, I'm just a bucket of atoms and tissue. Thank you humanity for all the nice hormones and organs! Chica chica booya, HOORAY for eyes and ears, good old bones and lungs.
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EPT
