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In order to ensure that this thread meets TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we ask that everyone please adhere to this mod note. Posts containing only Tweets or articles adds nothing to the discussions. Therefore, when providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments will be actioned upon. All in all, please continue to enjoy posting in TL General and partake in discussions as much as you want! But please be respectful when posting or replying to someone. There is a clear difference between constructive criticism/discussion and just plain being rude and insulting. https://www.registertovote.service.gov.uk |
Saying your better then Saudi Arabia or Russia is hardly an achievement, Certainly fits with the level England seems to be striving for post Brexit tho.
Your government wanted to abolish striking, seems pretty easy to throw them in the 'shit country' bin with positions like that.
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On January 20 2023 04:11 Gorsameth wrote:
Saying your better then Saudi Arabia or Russia is hardly an achievement, Certainly fits with the level England seems to be striving for post Brexit tho.
Your government wanted to abolish striking, seems pretty easy to throw them in the 'shit country' bin with positions like that.
I used those examples to make it obvious just how hyperbolic and insulting it is to call the UK a hellhole and a nightmare. The UK is not comparable to those countries, especially when it comes to LGBT rights or the right to protest.
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On January 20 2023 16:40 Melliflue wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2023 04:11 Gorsameth wrote:
Saying your better then Saudi Arabia or Russia is hardly an achievement, Certainly fits with the level England seems to be striving for post Brexit tho.
Your government wanted to abolish striking, seems pretty easy to throw them in the 'shit country' bin with positions like that. I used those examples to make it obvious just how hyperbolic and insulting it is to call the UK a hellhole and a nightmare. The UK is not comparable to those countries, especially when it comes to LGBT rights or the right to protest.
The difference is that we're taking significant steps backwards.
Anti-union laws, anti-protest laws, constant giving of new powers to police, The government blocking progressive legislation in Scotland to provide ammo for their stupid culture war to try and win idiot votes etc.
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On January 20 2023 23:29 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2023 16:40 Melliflue wrote:On January 20 2023 04:11 Gorsameth wrote:
Saying your better then Saudi Arabia or Russia is hardly an achievement, Certainly fits with the level England seems to be striving for post Brexit tho.
Your government wanted to abolish striking, seems pretty easy to throw them in the 'shit country' bin with positions like that. I used those examples to make it obvious just how hyperbolic and insulting it is to call the UK a hellhole and a nightmare. The UK is not comparable to those countries, especially when it comes to LGBT rights or the right to protest. The difference is that we're taking significant steps backwards. Anti-union laws, anti-protest laws, constant giving of new powers to police, The government blocking progressive legislation in Scotland to provide ammo for their stupid culture war to try and win idiot votes etc.
I reckon the government is only going ahead with this stuff now because they know they will lose the election next year. If Labour don't reverse this crap then I will worry. I don't expect progress to always be smooth.
But still, I don't think this makes it appropriate to call the UK a hellhole, a nightmare, a shit country, or for plasmid to say they hope the country disintegrates. That was my initial point. People can make their arguments without resorting to such insults. As the mod note says:
All in all, please continue to enjoy posting in TL General and partake in discussions as much as you want! But please be respectful when posting or replying to someone. There is a clear difference between constructive criticism/discussion and just plain being rude and insulting.
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United States43962 Posts
On January 24 2023 08:37 plasmidghost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2023 03:34 Melliflue wrote:On January 20 2023 23:29 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 20 2023 16:40 Melliflue wrote:On January 20 2023 04:11 Gorsameth wrote:
Saying your better then Saudi Arabia or Russia is hardly an achievement, Certainly fits with the level England seems to be striving for post Brexit tho.
Your government wanted to abolish striking, seems pretty easy to throw them in the 'shit country' bin with positions like that. I used those examples to make it obvious just how hyperbolic and insulting it is to call the UK a hellhole and a nightmare. The UK is not comparable to those countries, especially when it comes to LGBT rights or the right to protest. The difference is that we're taking significant steps backwards. Anti-union laws, anti-protest laws, constant giving of new powers to police, The government blocking progressive legislation in Scotland to provide ammo for their stupid culture war to try and win idiot votes etc. I reckon the government is only going ahead with this stuff now because they know they will lose the election next year. If Labour don't reverse this crap then I will worry. I don't expect progress to always be smooth. But still, I don't think this makes it appropriate to call the UK a hellhole, a nightmare, a shit country, or for plasmid to say they hope the country disintegrates. That was my initial point. People can make their arguments without resorting to such insults. As the mod note says: All in all, please continue to enjoy posting in TL General and partake in discussions as much as you want! But please be respectful when posting or replying to someone. There is a clear difference between constructive criticism/discussion and just plain being rude and insulting. I 100% stand by what I said. The UK Tory government, the Labour Party, UK institutions like the EHRC, and the entire UK media, including the BBC, actively makes the lives of people like me unimaginably horrible. Every single one of my trans friends hates it in the UK and is trying to get out. I've already lost so many friends to suicide from the absolute cruelty perpetuated in that country, including manufactured healthcare waitlists of over seven years. Now that Starmer's bent the knee to the openly neo-Nazi transphobes in the country, there is no path future for the UK, and therefore to save as many people in my community as possible, it needs to dissolve.
Well at least you’re keeping things in proportion and avoiding hysterical hyperbole.
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On January 24 2023 08:37 plasmidghost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2023 03:34 Melliflue wrote:On January 20 2023 23:29 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 20 2023 16:40 Melliflue wrote:On January 20 2023 04:11 Gorsameth wrote:
Saying your better then Saudi Arabia or Russia is hardly an achievement, Certainly fits with the level England seems to be striving for post Brexit tho.
Your government wanted to abolish striking, seems pretty easy to throw them in the 'shit country' bin with positions like that. I used those examples to make it obvious just how hyperbolic and insulting it is to call the UK a hellhole and a nightmare. The UK is not comparable to those countries, especially when it comes to LGBT rights or the right to protest. The difference is that we're taking significant steps backwards. Anti-union laws, anti-protest laws, constant giving of new powers to police, The government blocking progressive legislation in Scotland to provide ammo for their stupid culture war to try and win idiot votes etc. I reckon the government is only going ahead with this stuff now because they know they will lose the election next year. If Labour don't reverse this crap then I will worry. I don't expect progress to always be smooth. But still, I don't think this makes it appropriate to call the UK a hellhole, a nightmare, a shit country, or for plasmid to say they hope the country disintegrates. That was my initial point. People can make their arguments without resorting to such insults. As the mod note says: All in all, please continue to enjoy posting in TL General and partake in discussions as much as you want! But please be respectful when posting or replying to someone. There is a clear difference between constructive criticism/discussion and just plain being rude and insulting. I 100% stand by what I said. The UK Tory government, the Labour Party, UK institutions like the EHRC, and the entire UK media, including the BBC, actively makes the lives of people like me unimaginably horrible. Every single one of my trans friends hates it in the UK and is trying to get out. I've already lost so many friends to suicide from the absolute cruelty perpetuated in that country, including manufactured healthcare waitlists of over seven years. Now that Starmer's bent the knee to the openly neo-Nazi transphobes in the country, there is no path future for the UK, and therefore to save as many people in my community as possible, it needs to dissolve.
Why aren't your friends leaving then? Seems like a much easier and more realistic solution then to dissolve a whole state...
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Northern Ireland26739 Posts
Gold standard on the issue? Absolutely not, but comparatively is the UK all that bad on trans issues? I mean, in absolute terms there's a good distance to go in this area, yeah absolutely. A generally shitter trajectory than many comparable places so issues that are more generic/universal, be it healthcare waiting lists or growing poverty have a devastating impact on a particular demograpihc? Yeah can't really argue with that.
Weaponising and over-inflating trans issues seems to be the go-to current strategy of right-wing charlatans the world over, the UK isn't exactly unique in that domain, and I'd assume the general populace is more receptive to trans emancipation than many places too.
Hey, won't find me defending much of my country's direction in the last 5/10 years but even then I wouldn't go quite as far as dystopian hellhole.
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Here's some absolutely shocking behaviour from the UK government:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/prigozhin-government-russia-ukraine-hack-libel-slapp/
The UK government helped the boss of Russia’s murderous mercenary army to circumvent its own sanctions and launch a targeted legal attack on a British journalist, openDemocracy can reveal.
Yevgeny Prigozhin is the founder of Wagner, a private army that the US government last week announced it would designate a “transnational criminal organisation”, allowing it to impose even tougher sanctions on the group. For years it has been accused of human rights abuses and war crimes in Ukraine and across the world in support of Putin’s regime.
Sanctions introduced in the UK and Europe in 2020 were supposed to prevent anyone from doing business with Prigozhin. He had also been sanctioned in the US in 2018.
But a vast cache of hacked emails shows that, under the leadership of Rishi Sunak, the UK Treasury issued special licences in 2021 to let the oligarch override sanctions and launch an aggressive legal campaign against a journalist in the London courts.
This government seems determined to clamp down on all civil rights for everyone as much as they possibly can right now.
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On January 25 2023 22:09 Jockmcplop wrote:Here's some absolutely shocking behaviour from the UK government: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/prigozhin-government-russia-ukraine-hack-libel-slapp/Show nested quote +The UK government helped the boss of Russia’s murderous mercenary army to circumvent its own sanctions and launch a targeted legal attack on a British journalist, openDemocracy can reveal.
Yevgeny Prigozhin is the founder of Wagner, a private army that the US government last week announced it would designate a “transnational criminal organisation”, allowing it to impose even tougher sanctions on the group. For years it has been accused of human rights abuses and war crimes in Ukraine and across the world in support of Putin’s regime.
Sanctions introduced in the UK and Europe in 2020 were supposed to prevent anyone from doing business with Prigozhin. He had also been sanctioned in the US in 2018.
But a vast cache of hacked emails shows that, under the leadership of Rishi Sunak, the UK Treasury issued special licences in 2021 to let the oligarch override sanctions and launch an aggressive legal campaign against a journalist in the London courts.
This government seems determined to clamp down on all civil rights for everyone as much as they possibly can right now.
Less sensationalist source for balance: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64400057
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On January 26 2023 01:19 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2023 22:09 Jockmcplop wrote:Here's some absolutely shocking behaviour from the UK government: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/prigozhin-government-russia-ukraine-hack-libel-slapp/The UK government helped the boss of Russia’s murderous mercenary army to circumvent its own sanctions and launch a targeted legal attack on a British journalist, openDemocracy can reveal.
Yevgeny Prigozhin is the founder of Wagner, a private army that the US government last week announced it would designate a “transnational criminal organisation”, allowing it to impose even tougher sanctions on the group. For years it has been accused of human rights abuses and war crimes in Ukraine and across the world in support of Putin’s regime.
Sanctions introduced in the UK and Europe in 2020 were supposed to prevent anyone from doing business with Prigozhin. He had also been sanctioned in the US in 2018.
But a vast cache of hacked emails shows that, under the leadership of Rishi Sunak, the UK Treasury issued special licences in 2021 to let the oligarch override sanctions and launch an aggressive legal campaign against a journalist in the London courts.
This government seems determined to clamp down on all civil rights for everyone as much as they possibly can right now. Less sensationalist source for balance: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64400057
Thanks for that!
I try to use decent sources but couldn't find any when i posted this.
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On January 25 2023 04:17 WombaT wrote:
Gold standard on the issue? Absolutely not, but comparatively is the UK all that bad on trans issues? I mean, in absolute terms there's a good distance to go in this area, yeah absolutely. A generally shitter trajectory than many comparable places so issues that are more generic/universal, be it healthcare waiting lists or growing poverty have a devastating impact on a particular demograpihc? Yeah can't really argue with that.
Weaponising and over-inflating trans issues seems to be the go-to current strategy of right-wing charlatans the world over, the UK isn't exactly unique in that domain, and I'd assume the general populace is more receptive to trans emancipation than many places too.
Hey, won't find me defending much of my country's direction in the last 5/10 years but even then I wouldn't go quite as far as dystopian hellhole.
I know there are people on the right who will exploit such issues but I fear it is the combative attitude of many progressives that will prevent them from getting meaningful political influence.
This discussion started with the GRR in Scotland so I will use self-identification as an example. Overall I support self-identification, but I understand the fear that sex offenders will pretend to be transgender to access women-only spaces.
I also know there are women that have lived their whole life biologically female for whom being a "woman" is a fundamental part of their identity, and part of being a woman are the shared experiences of harassment and sexualisation, and then nobody can truly be a woman without those experiences. Thus to them someone who is biologically male self-identifying as female is as offensive as a white person claiming to be black.
I do not think such issues should stop self-identification but I do think they should be treated with respect and sensitivity. Nobody sincerely voicing such issues should be called a ‘transphobe’ or a ‘terf’, or accused of ‘dog-whistle transphobia’.
During the discussion in this thread plasmid said Starmer has bent the knee to “neo-nazi transphobes” and Jock said “The government blocking progressive legislation in Scotland to provide ammo for their stupid culture war to try and win idiot votes” – calling anyone who agrees with the UK government blocking the GRR an idiot.
This is not just an on-line phenomena either. During a debate in the House of Commons on the GRR the Tory MP Miriam Cates voiced concerns about sex offenders exploiting the GRR and she was followed by the Labour MP Lloyd Russell-Moyle who saidGoodness me, that speech was probably one of the worst transphobic, dog-whistle speeches that I have heard in an awful long time. The idea of linking trans people with predators, frankly, is disgusting and you should be ashamed.
Such rhetoric won’t win over anyone. In fact, it will probably push people away from the cause.
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On January 26 2023 22:40 Melliflue wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2023 04:17 WombaT wrote:
Gold standard on the issue? Absolutely not, but comparatively is the UK all that bad on trans issues? I mean, in absolute terms there's a good distance to go in this area, yeah absolutely. A generally shitter trajectory than many comparable places so issues that are more generic/universal, be it healthcare waiting lists or growing poverty have a devastating impact on a particular demograpihc? Yeah can't really argue with that.
Weaponising and over-inflating trans issues seems to be the go-to current strategy of right-wing charlatans the world over, the UK isn't exactly unique in that domain, and I'd assume the general populace is more receptive to trans emancipation than many places too.
Hey, won't find me defending much of my country's direction in the last 5/10 years but even then I wouldn't go quite as far as dystopian hellhole. I know there are people on the right who will exploit such issues but I fear it is the combative attitude of many progressives that will prevent them from getting meaningful political influence. This discussion started with the GRR in Scotland so I will use self-identification as an example. Overall I support self-identification, but I understand the fear that sex offenders will pretend to be transgender to access women-only spaces. I also know there are women that have lived their whole life biologically female for whom being a "woman" is a fundamental part of their identity, and part of being a woman are the shared experiences of harassment and sexualisation, and then nobody can truly be a woman without those experiences. Thus to them someone who is biologically male self-identifying as female is as offensive as a white person claiming to be black. I do not think such issues should stop self-identification but I do think they should be treated with respect and sensitivity. Nobody sincerely voicing such issues should be called a ‘transphobe’ or a ‘terf’, or accused of ‘dog-whistle transphobia’. During the discussion in this thread plasmid said Starmer has bent the knee to “neo-nazi transphobes” and Jock said “The government blocking progressive legislation in Scotland to provide ammo for their stupid culture war to try and win idiot votes” – calling anyone who agrees with the UK government blocking the GRR an idiot. This is not just an on-line phenomena either. During a debate in the House of Commons on the GRR the Tory MP Miriam Cates voiced concerns about sex offenders exploiting the GRR and she was followed by the Labour MP Lloyd Russell-Moyle who said Show nested quote +Goodness me, that speech was probably one of the worst transphobic, dog-whistle speeches that I have heard in an awful long time. The idea of linking trans people with predators, frankly, is disgusting and you should be ashamed. Such rhetoric won’t win over anyone. In fact, it will probably push people away from the cause.
Well if the anti-trans hate movement are so sensitive they would genuinely be offended by harsh language such as 'idiot' then maybe they should grow up a little.
Its not like people are trying to legislate them out of existence.
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On January 27 2023 00:52 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2023 22:40 Melliflue wrote:On January 25 2023 04:17 WombaT wrote:
Gold standard on the issue? Absolutely not, but comparatively is the UK all that bad on trans issues? I mean, in absolute terms there's a good distance to go in this area, yeah absolutely. A generally shitter trajectory than many comparable places so issues that are more generic/universal, be it healthcare waiting lists or growing poverty have a devastating impact on a particular demograpihc? Yeah can't really argue with that.
Weaponising and over-inflating trans issues seems to be the go-to current strategy of right-wing charlatans the world over, the UK isn't exactly unique in that domain, and I'd assume the general populace is more receptive to trans emancipation than many places too.
Hey, won't find me defending much of my country's direction in the last 5/10 years but even then I wouldn't go quite as far as dystopian hellhole. I know there are people on the right who will exploit such issues but I fear it is the combative attitude of many progressives that will prevent them from getting meaningful political influence. This discussion started with the GRR in Scotland so I will use self-identification as an example. Overall I support self-identification, but I understand the fear that sex offenders will pretend to be transgender to access women-only spaces. I also know there are women that have lived their whole life biologically female for whom being a "woman" is a fundamental part of their identity, and part of being a woman are the shared experiences of harassment and sexualisation, and then nobody can truly be a woman without those experiences. Thus to them someone who is biologically male self-identifying as female is as offensive as a white person claiming to be black. I do not think such issues should stop self-identification but I do think they should be treated with respect and sensitivity. Nobody sincerely voicing such issues should be called a ‘transphobe’ or a ‘terf’, or accused of ‘dog-whistle transphobia’. During the discussion in this thread plasmid said Starmer has bent the knee to “neo-nazi transphobes” and Jock said “The government blocking progressive legislation in Scotland to provide ammo for their stupid culture war to try and win idiot votes” – calling anyone who agrees with the UK government blocking the GRR an idiot. This is not just an on-line phenomena either. During a debate in the House of Commons on the GRR the Tory MP Miriam Cates voiced concerns about sex offenders exploiting the GRR and she was followed by the Labour MP Lloyd Russell-Moyle who said Goodness me, that speech was probably one of the worst transphobic, dog-whistle speeches that I have heard in an awful long time. The idea of linking trans people with predators, frankly, is disgusting and you should be ashamed. Such rhetoric won’t win over anyone. In fact, it will probably push people away from the cause. Well if the anti-trans hate movement are so sensitive they would genuinely be offended by harsh language such as 'idiot' then maybe they should grow up a little. Its not like people are trying to legislate them out of existence.
And this is exactly what I was talking about. Not everyone who voices a concern about self-identification or the GRR are part of an "anti-trans hate movement" and want to legislate trans people out of existence.
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On January 27 2023 03:06 Melliflue wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2023 00:52 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 26 2023 22:40 Melliflue wrote:On January 25 2023 04:17 WombaT wrote:
Gold standard on the issue? Absolutely not, but comparatively is the UK all that bad on trans issues? I mean, in absolute terms there's a good distance to go in this area, yeah absolutely. A generally shitter trajectory than many comparable places so issues that are more generic/universal, be it healthcare waiting lists or growing poverty have a devastating impact on a particular demograpihc? Yeah can't really argue with that.
Weaponising and over-inflating trans issues seems to be the go-to current strategy of right-wing charlatans the world over, the UK isn't exactly unique in that domain, and I'd assume the general populace is more receptive to trans emancipation than many places too.
Hey, won't find me defending much of my country's direction in the last 5/10 years but even then I wouldn't go quite as far as dystopian hellhole. I know there are people on the right who will exploit such issues but I fear it is the combative attitude of many progressives that will prevent them from getting meaningful political influence. This discussion started with the GRR in Scotland so I will use self-identification as an example. Overall I support self-identification, but I understand the fear that sex offenders will pretend to be transgender to access women-only spaces. I also know there are women that have lived their whole life biologically female for whom being a "woman" is a fundamental part of their identity, and part of being a woman are the shared experiences of harassment and sexualisation, and then nobody can truly be a woman without those experiences. Thus to them someone who is biologically male self-identifying as female is as offensive as a white person claiming to be black. I do not think such issues should stop self-identification but I do think they should be treated with respect and sensitivity. Nobody sincerely voicing such issues should be called a ‘transphobe’ or a ‘terf’, or accused of ‘dog-whistle transphobia’. During the discussion in this thread plasmid said Starmer has bent the knee to “neo-nazi transphobes” and Jock said “The government blocking progressive legislation in Scotland to provide ammo for their stupid culture war to try and win idiot votes” – calling anyone who agrees with the UK government blocking the GRR an idiot. This is not just an on-line phenomena either. During a debate in the House of Commons on the GRR the Tory MP Miriam Cates voiced concerns about sex offenders exploiting the GRR and she was followed by the Labour MP Lloyd Russell-Moyle who said Goodness me, that speech was probably one of the worst transphobic, dog-whistle speeches that I have heard in an awful long time. The idea of linking trans people with predators, frankly, is disgusting and you should be ashamed. Such rhetoric won’t win over anyone. In fact, it will probably push people away from the cause. Well if the anti-trans hate movement are so sensitive they would genuinely be offended by harsh language such as 'idiot' then maybe they should grow up a little. Its not like people are trying to legislate them out of existence. And this is exactly what I was talking about. Not everyone who voices a concern about self-identification or the GRR are part of an "anti-trans hate movement" and want to legislate trans people out of existence.
Sometimes you hear an argument too often from people who go on to prove it incorrect.
I heard this from the so called feminist groups who took money from anti-abortion activists in America to fight and lobby against ANY expansion of trans rights in the UK, regardless of their exact nature. They were apparently just concerned about the effect on women.
I heard it from Graham Linehan who was just a concerned liberal apparently before going on some very extreme hate filled rants about trans people.
In fact, every single time someone is caught showing the extremity of their hatred for trans people, they pull out this same line of reasoning 'I'm not extreme, I'm just so concerned about trans people having rights.'
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On January 27 2023 03:23 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2023 03:06 Melliflue wrote:On January 27 2023 00:52 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 26 2023 22:40 Melliflue wrote:On January 25 2023 04:17 WombaT wrote:
Gold standard on the issue? Absolutely not, but comparatively is the UK all that bad on trans issues? I mean, in absolute terms there's a good distance to go in this area, yeah absolutely. A generally shitter trajectory than many comparable places so issues that are more generic/universal, be it healthcare waiting lists or growing poverty have a devastating impact on a particular demograpihc? Yeah can't really argue with that.
Weaponising and over-inflating trans issues seems to be the go-to current strategy of right-wing charlatans the world over, the UK isn't exactly unique in that domain, and I'd assume the general populace is more receptive to trans emancipation than many places too.
Hey, won't find me defending much of my country's direction in the last 5/10 years but even then I wouldn't go quite as far as dystopian hellhole. I know there are people on the right who will exploit such issues but I fear it is the combative attitude of many progressives that will prevent them from getting meaningful political influence. This discussion started with the GRR in Scotland so I will use self-identification as an example. Overall I support self-identification, but I understand the fear that sex offenders will pretend to be transgender to access women-only spaces. I also know there are women that have lived their whole life biologically female for whom being a "woman" is a fundamental part of their identity, and part of being a woman are the shared experiences of harassment and sexualisation, and then nobody can truly be a woman without those experiences. Thus to them someone who is biologically male self-identifying as female is as offensive as a white person claiming to be black. I do not think such issues should stop self-identification but I do think they should be treated with respect and sensitivity. Nobody sincerely voicing such issues should be called a ‘transphobe’ or a ‘terf’, or accused of ‘dog-whistle transphobia’. During the discussion in this thread plasmid said Starmer has bent the knee to “neo-nazi transphobes” and Jock said “The government blocking progressive legislation in Scotland to provide ammo for their stupid culture war to try and win idiot votes” – calling anyone who agrees with the UK government blocking the GRR an idiot. This is not just an on-line phenomena either. During a debate in the House of Commons on the GRR the Tory MP Miriam Cates voiced concerns about sex offenders exploiting the GRR and she was followed by the Labour MP Lloyd Russell-Moyle who said Goodness me, that speech was probably one of the worst transphobic, dog-whistle speeches that I have heard in an awful long time. The idea of linking trans people with predators, frankly, is disgusting and you should be ashamed. Such rhetoric won’t win over anyone. In fact, it will probably push people away from the cause. Well if the anti-trans hate movement are so sensitive they would genuinely be offended by harsh language such as 'idiot' then maybe they should grow up a little. Its not like people are trying to legislate them out of existence. And this is exactly what I was talking about. Not everyone who voices a concern about self-identification or the GRR are part of an "anti-trans hate movement" and want to legislate trans people out of existence. Sometimes you hear an argument too often from people who go on to prove it incorrect. I heard this from the so called feminist groups who took money from anti-abortion activists in America to fight and lobby against ANY expansion of trans rights in the UK, regardless of their exact nature. They were apparently just concerned about the effect on women. I heard it from Graham Linehan who was just a concerned liberal apparently before going on some very extreme hate filled rants about trans people. In fact, every single time someone is caught showing the extremity of their hatred for trans people, they pull out this same line of reasoning 'I'm not extreme, I'm just so concerned about trans people having rights.'
But there are so many quiet people who do wonder about some issues and will hear someone voicing a seemingly valid concern only to be insulted and those quiet people are going to feel insulted too. Normal, kind, people get scared to voice an opinion on these issues and then they listen to the only people who seem to care about those issues - those who are trying to exploit the issue or who are actually horrible people.
I believe this happened with the Brexit referendum too. I am extremely pro-EU and think we should rejoin, but I know many pro-leave people irl and it was clear to me that they felt the pro-EU side wasn't listening or caring. They became defensive and reinforced their anti-EU feelings when they thought that pro-leave people were being insulted and personally attacked by pro-EU people, with the whole 'Brexiters are stupid and/or racist' attitude.
I see the same thing happening with transgender rights now. I believe it is understandable to be scared of convicted sex offenders being allowed into women's only spaces. Instead of name-calling, we should explain the safeguards that exist to stop that from happening.
Moreover, I worry that when we over-use words like 'transphobe' we risk making it a less impactful word. I think this has happened with 'racist'. That word has been thrown around so much over the last few years that being called a 'racist' for many people is not as bad as it used to be because they think that some people are "over-sensitive" and will call almost anyone a 'racist'.
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On January 27 2023 04:21 Melliflue wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2023 03:23 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 27 2023 03:06 Melliflue wrote:On January 27 2023 00:52 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 26 2023 22:40 Melliflue wrote:On January 25 2023 04:17 WombaT wrote:
Gold standard on the issue? Absolutely not, but comparatively is the UK all that bad on trans issues? I mean, in absolute terms there's a good distance to go in this area, yeah absolutely. A generally shitter trajectory than many comparable places so issues that are more generic/universal, be it healthcare waiting lists or growing poverty have a devastating impact on a particular demograpihc? Yeah can't really argue with that.
Weaponising and over-inflating trans issues seems to be the go-to current strategy of right-wing charlatans the world over, the UK isn't exactly unique in that domain, and I'd assume the general populace is more receptive to trans emancipation than many places too.
Hey, won't find me defending much of my country's direction in the last 5/10 years but even then I wouldn't go quite as far as dystopian hellhole. I know there are people on the right who will exploit such issues but I fear it is the combative attitude of many progressives that will prevent them from getting meaningful political influence. This discussion started with the GRR in Scotland so I will use self-identification as an example. Overall I support self-identification, but I understand the fear that sex offenders will pretend to be transgender to access women-only spaces. I also know there are women that have lived their whole life biologically female for whom being a "woman" is a fundamental part of their identity, and part of being a woman are the shared experiences of harassment and sexualisation, and then nobody can truly be a woman without those experiences. Thus to them someone who is biologically male self-identifying as female is as offensive as a white person claiming to be black. I do not think such issues should stop self-identification but I do think they should be treated with respect and sensitivity. Nobody sincerely voicing such issues should be called a ‘transphobe’ or a ‘terf’, or accused of ‘dog-whistle transphobia’. During the discussion in this thread plasmid said Starmer has bent the knee to “neo-nazi transphobes” and Jock said “The government blocking progressive legislation in Scotland to provide ammo for their stupid culture war to try and win idiot votes” – calling anyone who agrees with the UK government blocking the GRR an idiot. This is not just an on-line phenomena either. During a debate in the House of Commons on the GRR the Tory MP Miriam Cates voiced concerns about sex offenders exploiting the GRR and she was followed by the Labour MP Lloyd Russell-Moyle who said Goodness me, that speech was probably one of the worst transphobic, dog-whistle speeches that I have heard in an awful long time. The idea of linking trans people with predators, frankly, is disgusting and you should be ashamed. Such rhetoric won’t win over anyone. In fact, it will probably push people away from the cause. Well if the anti-trans hate movement are so sensitive they would genuinely be offended by harsh language such as 'idiot' then maybe they should grow up a little. Its not like people are trying to legislate them out of existence. And this is exactly what I was talking about. Not everyone who voices a concern about self-identification or the GRR are part of an "anti-trans hate movement" and want to legislate trans people out of existence. Sometimes you hear an argument too often from people who go on to prove it incorrect. I heard this from the so called feminist groups who took money from anti-abortion activists in America to fight and lobby against ANY expansion of trans rights in the UK, regardless of their exact nature. They were apparently just concerned about the effect on women. I heard it from Graham Linehan who was just a concerned liberal apparently before going on some very extreme hate filled rants about trans people. In fact, every single time someone is caught showing the extremity of their hatred for trans people, they pull out this same line of reasoning 'I'm not extreme, I'm just so concerned about trans people having rights.' But there are so many quiet people who do wonder about some issues and will hear someone voicing a seemingly valid concern only to be insulted and those quiet people are going to feel insulted too. Normal, kind, people get scared to voice an opinion on these issues and then they listen to the only people who seem to care about those issues - those who are trying to exploit the issue or who are actually horrible people. I believe this happened with the Brexit referendum too. I am extremely pro-EU and think we should rejoin, but I know many pro-leave people irl and it was clear to me that they felt the pro-EU side wasn't listening or caring. They became defensive and reinforced their anti-EU feelings when they thought that pro-leave people were being insulted and personally attacked by pro-EU people, with the whole 'Brexiters are stupid and/or racist' attitude. I see the same thing happening with transgender rights now. I believe it is understandable to be scared of convicted sex offenders being allowed into women's only spaces. Instead of name-calling, we should explain the safeguards that exist to stop that from happening. Moreover, I worry that when we over-use words like 'transphobe' we risk making it a less impactful word. I think this has happened with 'racist'. That word has been thrown around so much over the last few years that being called a 'racist' for many people is not as bad as it used to be because they think that some people are "over-sensitive" and will call almost anyone a 'racist'.
The thing is the quiet people who wonder about issues are not the people the tories are trying to win votes off with their attacks. Its the people who are so backward in their thinking and so insecure in their own self that they have to attack anyone who is different from them.
Its very easy to tell the difference between the two groups.
Remember this is not me trying to convince someone of something, its me pointing out the way our government works, what their priorities are, and how people are victimised by them playing on the fear and insecurity of the idiot vote.
Logically what you're saying makes sense, but i'm not going to tread on eggshells to avoid upsetting people who, if they're upset by that, i don't have any chance of getting through to anyway. I could do, and it wouldn't take much, if any, effort on my part to be more respectful of these people, but i've dealt with enough of them that i quite enjoy calling them morons, because they are, and i don't think anyone should take anything I say seriously enough to expect that me doing so would have any consequences at all on the quiet wonderers.
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On January 27 2023 04:21 Melliflue wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2023 03:23 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 27 2023 03:06 Melliflue wrote:On January 27 2023 00:52 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 26 2023 22:40 Melliflue wrote:On January 25 2023 04:17 WombaT wrote:
Gold standard on the issue? Absolutely not, but comparatively is the UK all that bad on trans issues? I mean, in absolute terms there's a good distance to go in this area, yeah absolutely. A generally shitter trajectory than many comparable places so issues that are more generic/universal, be it healthcare waiting lists or growing poverty have a devastating impact on a particular demograpihc? Yeah can't really argue with that.
Weaponising and over-inflating trans issues seems to be the go-to current strategy of right-wing charlatans the world over, the UK isn't exactly unique in that domain, and I'd assume the general populace is more receptive to trans emancipation than many places too.
Hey, won't find me defending much of my country's direction in the last 5/10 years but even then I wouldn't go quite as far as dystopian hellhole. I know there are people on the right who will exploit such issues but I fear it is the combative attitude of many progressives that will prevent them from getting meaningful political influence. This discussion started with the GRR in Scotland so I will use self-identification as an example. Overall I support self-identification, but I understand the fear that sex offenders will pretend to be transgender to access women-only spaces. I also know there are women that have lived their whole life biologically female for whom being a "woman" is a fundamental part of their identity, and part of being a woman are the shared experiences of harassment and sexualisation, and then nobody can truly be a woman without those experiences. Thus to them someone who is biologically male self-identifying as female is as offensive as a white person claiming to be black. I do not think such issues should stop self-identification but I do think they should be treated with respect and sensitivity. Nobody sincerely voicing such issues should be called a ‘transphobe’ or a ‘terf’, or accused of ‘dog-whistle transphobia’. During the discussion in this thread plasmid said Starmer has bent the knee to “neo-nazi transphobes” and Jock said “The government blocking progressive legislation in Scotland to provide ammo for their stupid culture war to try and win idiot votes” – calling anyone who agrees with the UK government blocking the GRR an idiot. This is not just an on-line phenomena either. During a debate in the House of Commons on the GRR the Tory MP Miriam Cates voiced concerns about sex offenders exploiting the GRR and she was followed by the Labour MP Lloyd Russell-Moyle who said Goodness me, that speech was probably one of the worst transphobic, dog-whistle speeches that I have heard in an awful long time. The idea of linking trans people with predators, frankly, is disgusting and you should be ashamed. Such rhetoric won’t win over anyone. In fact, it will probably push people away from the cause. Well if the anti-trans hate movement are so sensitive they would genuinely be offended by harsh language such as 'idiot' then maybe they should grow up a little. Its not like people are trying to legislate them out of existence. And this is exactly what I was talking about. Not everyone who voices a concern about self-identification or the GRR are part of an "anti-trans hate movement" and want to legislate trans people out of existence. Sometimes you hear an argument too often from people who go on to prove it incorrect. I heard this from the so called feminist groups who took money from anti-abortion activists in America to fight and lobby against ANY expansion of trans rights in the UK, regardless of their exact nature. They were apparently just concerned about the effect on women. I heard it from Graham Linehan who was just a concerned liberal apparently before going on some very extreme hate filled rants about trans people. In fact, every single time someone is caught showing the extremity of their hatred for trans people, they pull out this same line of reasoning 'I'm not extreme, I'm just so concerned about trans people having rights.' But there are so many quiet people who do wonder about some issues and will hear someone voicing a seemingly valid concern only to be insulted and those quiet people are going to feel insulted too. Normal, kind, people get scared to voice an opinion on these issues and then they listen to the only people who seem to care about those issues - those who are trying to exploit the issue or who are actually horrible people. I believe this happened with the Brexit referendum too. I am extremely pro-EU and think we should rejoin, but I know many pro-leave people irl and it was clear to me that they felt the pro-EU side wasn't listening or caring. They became defensive and reinforced their anti-EU feelings when they thought that pro-leave people were being insulted and personally attacked by pro-EU people, with the whole 'Brexiters are stupid and/or racist' attitude. I see the same thing happening with transgender rights now. I believe it is understandable to be scared of convicted sex offenders being allowed into women's only spaces. Instead of name-calling, we should explain the safeguards that exist to stop that from happening. Moreover, I worry that when we over-use words like 'transphobe' we risk making it a less impactful word. I think this has happened with 'racist'. That word has been thrown around so much over the last few years that being called a 'racist' for many people is not as bad as it used to be because they think that some people are "over-sensitive" and will call almost anyone a 'racist'.
I see that there's basically no way to convince a bigot that they are being a bigot and need to change their behavior without hurting their feelings/self-esteem (they think they are "normal and kind people"). Trying is a fool's errand.
It's impracticable to recognize the harm of one's own bigotry, identify you need to change, and not feel bad about all the time you spent on the wrong side (or in ostensible neutrality) doing so much harm.
There's lots of ways to work through that feeling, but it's pretty unavoidable unless you have a personality disorder imo.
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I have to preface this with the caveat that this is my general impression from media coverage (US, UK, Germany) which is generally left leaning.
I find it very hard to believe the concerns put forth due to the fact that those who put them forth are no proponents of equality. Especially men who want to "protect" women's safe spaces. Those same people shout the loudest if a violent man perpetrates crimes against women. But what do they shout? "Don't mingle the good men with these wife-beaters, rapists, not all men are like that!"
But suddenly the trans people are the bigger threat. While most violence against women happens in the home or close to home.
My opinion on that: get a fucking grip and address the problem at hand instead of fighting a culture war.
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EPT
