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@Artisreal: I missed that, but reasoned arguments and compassion should be how we always treat each other. Too often, I find left-wing people resorting to labelling people they disagree with, or accusing them of some form of -ism/-phobia. It is very tribal. We are critical of people outside the tribe when they use such tactics but don't call it out often enough when our own side does it.
On January 29 2023 18:49 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2023 03:04 Melliflue wrote:
While that may apply to an anonymous individual on-line it certainly does not apply to politicians or activists. How do you feel about the Lloyd Russell-Moyle quote? The jeering of Rosie Duffield? The jeering of Rosie Duffield isn't exactly an outlier in Parliament. Its standard behaviour when someone says something you disagree with. Parliament as a whole acts like assembly at a private school before the head starts speaking. The RUssell-Moyle quote is pretty much dead on, if its the one i'm thinking of. I can't find your post where you quote it: Show nested quote +‘The idea of linking trans people with predators is disgusting and you should be ashamed,’ he told Cates, before accusing his fellow MP of delivering what he claimed was ‘one of the worst transphobic dog-whistle speeches I’ve heard in an awful long time’. I think he's absolutely dead on.
I should have worded my question more clearly, sorry. What I wanted to ask was: How do you think a 'quiet voter' would react to the Russell-Moyle quote? I fear he will come across as dismissive, insulting, and very angry (he was finger-jabbingly angry). I fear the only people who are not put off by that behaviour already firmly agree with him. And this goes back to my original point: I fear it is the combative attitude of many progressives that will prevent them from getting meaningful political influence.
P.s. I tried to find a video of the whole exchange but the best I could do was a video of the Russell-Moyle response, for anyone who wants to see what I am talking about.
+ Show Spoiler +
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But how else should you react to something where the core premise is utterly false?
We know for a fact that if rightwingers say something often enough, it becomes reality for them, and lots of other people start thinking "Well, maybe there is something to it, otherwise it wouldn't come up as often".
In this case, it is the idea that trans people are latently predators that we need to protect the children from. Rightwingers love to repeat this ad nauseum, because they know that it doesn't matter if it is true or not as long as they say it often enough. In fact, if they say it often enough, they can paint the people who disagree with them as being naive ideologues who are accidentally sacrificing children because they don't want to see the hard truth. Or worse, being on board with the whole thing.
And then that is the discussion we have to have, instead of the real one that would matter, but which the rightwingers aren't as certain that they would win.
This shit needs to be stamped out early, and we need to find a way back away from this shitty post-truth discussion culture.
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It is not just right wingers, many feminists are critical as well. The responses in the thread kind of prove Melliflue's point. You follow the dogma of the left or you're a right winger, racist, terf, or whatever new term there is.
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On January 31 2023 16:49 RvB wrote:
It is not just right wingers, many feminists are critical as well. The responses in the thread kind of prove Melliflue's point. You follow the dogma of the left or you're a right winger, racist, terf, or whatever new term there is.
yeah, often they're the kind of feminists who'll happily take funding from anti-abortion groups in America for the fight against trans people.
ie 'feminists'
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United States41959 Posts
On January 31 2023 16:49 RvB wrote:
It is not just right wingers, many feminists are critical as well. The responses in the thread kind of prove Melliflue's point. You follow the dogma of the left or you're a right winger, racist, terf, or whatever new term there is.
Are you unaware that terfs invented the term terfs to describe themselves?
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On January 31 2023 18:18 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2023 16:49 RvB wrote:
It is not just right wingers, many feminists are critical as well. The responses in the thread kind of prove Melliflue's point. You follow the dogma of the left or you're a right winger, racist, terf, or whatever new term there is. Are you unaware that terfs invented the term terfs to describe themselves?
Are you unaware that despite its origin, it is now generally used in a derogatory manner?
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I also think that "the left is dogmatic" is mostly said by people not of the left. I am generally left-wing, and i disagree with a lot of lefties about a lot of stuff. I think most lefties do. And i haven't been described as rightwing or a racist or anything like that yet. "The left" here in Germany encompasses a lot of different political views.
The trick is simply to not be an asshole. Be respectful of other people.
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United States41959 Posts
On January 31 2023 18:25 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2023 18:18 KwarK wrote:On January 31 2023 16:49 RvB wrote:
It is not just right wingers, many feminists are critical as well. The responses in the thread kind of prove Melliflue's point. You follow the dogma of the left or you're a right winger, racist, terf, or whatever new term there is. Are you unaware that terfs invented the term terfs to describe themselves? Are you unaware that despite its origin, it is now generally used in a derogatory manner?
It’s not a slur, it’s a descriptor that they created for themselves. The fact that I say it with contempt doesn’t make it an insult, they’re just contemptible people.
These people come out and tell us who they are and what they stand for. Accepting their definitions and taking them at their word isn’t derogatory.
The idea that the left is somehow branding these people is nonsense, they’re openly preaching their beliefs, they want to be associated with those beliefs, they want to be accountable for them, they believe in them. Terfs are terfs and proud of it. Just like neo-Confederates, skinheads, incels, and so forth.
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On January 31 2023 18:34 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2023 18:25 Acrofales wrote:On January 31 2023 18:18 KwarK wrote:On January 31 2023 16:49 RvB wrote:
It is not just right wingers, many feminists are critical as well. The responses in the thread kind of prove Melliflue's point. You follow the dogma of the left or you're a right winger, racist, terf, or whatever new term there is. Are you unaware that terfs invented the term terfs to describe themselves? Are you unaware that despite its origin, it is now generally used in a derogatory manner? It’s not a slur, it’s a descriptor that they created for themselves. The fact that I say it with contempt doesn’t make it an insult, they’re just contemptible people. These people come out and tell us who they are and what they stand for. Accepting their definitions and taking them at their word isn’t derogatory. The idea that the left is somehow branding these people is nonsense, they’re openly preaching their beliefs, they want to be associated with those beliefs, they want to be accountable for them, they believe in them. Terfs are terfs and proud of it. Just like neo-Confederates, skinheads, incels, and so forth.
That makes next to no sense. Just because there are people who invented the term and are proud to be called terfs, doesn't mean everybody who is called a terf (according to RvB) belongs to that group of proud-terfs.
The fact that there are people who are proud to belong to a group doesn't stop it from being derogatory to others. For instance, I'm guessing you wouldn't be particularly pleased if I called you an incel!
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On January 31 2023 05:09 Melliflue wrote:@Artisreal: I missed that, but reasoned arguments and compassion should be how we always treat each other. Too often, I find left-wing people resorting to labelling people they disagree with, or accusing them of some form of -ism/-phobia. It is very tribal. We are critical of people outside the tribe when they use such tactics but don't call it out often enough when our own side does it. Show nested quote +On January 29 2023 18:49 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 29 2023 03:04 Melliflue wrote:
While that may apply to an anonymous individual on-line it certainly does not apply to politicians or activists. How do you feel about the Lloyd Russell-Moyle quote? The jeering of Rosie Duffield? The jeering of Rosie Duffield isn't exactly an outlier in Parliament. Its standard behaviour when someone says something you disagree with. Parliament as a whole acts like assembly at a private school before the head starts speaking. The RUssell-Moyle quote is pretty much dead on, if its the one i'm thinking of. I can't find your post where you quote it: ‘The idea of linking trans people with predators is disgusting and you should be ashamed,’ he told Cates, before accusing his fellow MP of delivering what he claimed was ‘one of the worst transphobic dog-whistle speeches I’ve heard in an awful long time’. I think he's absolutely dead on. I should have worded my question more clearly, sorry. What I wanted to ask was: How do you think a 'quiet voter' would react to the Russell-Moyle quote? I fear he will come across as dismissive, insulting, and very angry (he was finger-jabbingly angry). I fear the only people who are not put off by that behaviour already firmly agree with him. And this goes back to my original point: Show nested quote +I fear it is the combative attitude of many progressives that will prevent them from getting meaningful political influence. P.s. I tried to find a video of the whole exchange but the best I could do was a video of the Russell-Moyle response, for anyone who wants to see what I am talking about. + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6efgKSQwyE
Well, if we're looking at the data who perpetrates crimes against women, I'm 100% with Nicola on this one.
Definitely don't stop looking at that tiny subset of people who are a danger to women (or anybody else).
But don't blow it out of proportion. Why focus so much on transitioned women when the clearly bigger problem is cis men?
Why don't we hear those complaining about trans people rage about men perpetrating violence against women, like ever?
You can't just put one thing in focus, trans vs women, if the actual fight is men vs women.
You're focusing on the wrong battlefield.
Me being a general proponent of the ability to tackle multiple things at once (as a government) I would generally agree that it is important to focus on all issues at hand.
Though it's paramount to acknowledge all the issues. And my impression of those warning of the possibility of men getting a gender certificate solely to facilitate violence against women don't give a fuck about women's issues in general.
Hence fuck them.
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United States41959 Posts
On January 31 2023 18:50 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2023 18:34 KwarK wrote:On January 31 2023 18:25 Acrofales wrote:On January 31 2023 18:18 KwarK wrote:On January 31 2023 16:49 RvB wrote:
It is not just right wingers, many feminists are critical as well. The responses in the thread kind of prove Melliflue's point. You follow the dogma of the left or you're a right winger, racist, terf, or whatever new term there is. Are you unaware that terfs invented the term terfs to describe themselves? Are you unaware that despite its origin, it is now generally used in a derogatory manner? It’s not a slur, it’s a descriptor that they created for themselves. The fact that I say it with contempt doesn’t make it an insult, they’re just contemptible people. These people come out and tell us who they are and what they stand for. Accepting their definitions and taking them at their word isn’t derogatory. The idea that the left is somehow branding these people is nonsense, they’re openly preaching their beliefs, they want to be associated with those beliefs, they want to be accountable for them, they believe in them. Terfs are terfs and proud of it. Just like neo-Confederates, skinheads, incels, and so forth. That makes next to no sense. Just because there are people who invented the term and are proud to be called terfs, doesn't mean everybody who is called a terf (according to RvB) belongs to that group of proud-terfs. The fact that there are people who are proud to belong to a group doesn't stop it from being derogatory to others. For instance, I'm guessing you wouldn't be particularly pleased if I called you an incel!
But I’m not an incel, I’m married with kids. It wouldn’t super bother me because it’d be absurd, no part of it fits.
Have the people being called terfs tried not being terfs? They’d probably not be called terfs if they did that.
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On January 31 2023 23:57 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2023 18:50 Acrofales wrote:On January 31 2023 18:34 KwarK wrote:On January 31 2023 18:25 Acrofales wrote:On January 31 2023 18:18 KwarK wrote:On January 31 2023 16:49 RvB wrote:
It is not just right wingers, many feminists are critical as well. The responses in the thread kind of prove Melliflue's point. You follow the dogma of the left or you're a right winger, racist, terf, or whatever new term there is. Are you unaware that terfs invented the term terfs to describe themselves? Are you unaware that despite its origin, it is now generally used in a derogatory manner? It’s not a slur, it’s a descriptor that they created for themselves. The fact that I say it with contempt doesn’t make it an insult, they’re just contemptible people. These people come out and tell us who they are and what they stand for. Accepting their definitions and taking them at their word isn’t derogatory. The idea that the left is somehow branding these people is nonsense, they’re openly preaching their beliefs, they want to be associated with those beliefs, they want to be accountable for them, they believe in them. Terfs are terfs and proud of it. Just like neo-Confederates, skinheads, incels, and so forth. That makes next to no sense. Just because there are people who invented the term and are proud to be called terfs, doesn't mean everybody who is called a terf (according to RvB) belongs to that group of proud-terfs. The fact that there are people who are proud to belong to a group doesn't stop it from being derogatory to others. For instance, I'm guessing you wouldn't be particularly pleased if I called you an incel! But I’m not an incel, I’m married with kids. It wouldn’t super bother me because it’d be absurd, no part of it fits. Have the people being called terfs tried not being terfs? They’d probably not be called terfs if they did that.
Ah, what do you know, you myopic incel.
EDIT: actually rather than me being childish to make a point, let's make an actual point. What you're saying is that regardless of what people self-identity as, you'll call them terfs if based on some outward characteristics you classify them as terfs... I just wonder... would you allow them into the non-terf bathroom?
User was warned for this post
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On January 31 2023 05:38 Simberto wrote:+ Show Spoiler [Spoilered for length] +But how else should you react to something where the core premise is utterly false?
We know for a fact that if rightwingers say something often enough, it becomes reality for them, and lots of other people start thinking "Well, maybe there is something to it, otherwise it wouldn't come up as often".
In this case, it is the idea that trans people are latently predators that we need to protect the children from. Rightwingers love to repeat this ad nauseum, because they know that it doesn't matter if it is true or not as long as they say it often enough. In fact, if they say it often enough, they can paint the people who disagree with them as being naive ideologues who are accidentally sacrificing children because they don't want to see the hard truth. Or worse, being on board with the whole thing.
And then that is the discussion we have to have, instead of the real one that would matter, but which the rightwingers aren't as certain that they would win.
This shit needs to be stamped out early, and we need to find a way back away from this shitty post-truth discussion culture.
He still could have said that trans people are not predators. That a trans person goes to a bathroom for the same reason everyone else goes to a bathroom. But he should do so without jabbing his finger, or saying she should be ashamed of herself. As you said later "The trick is simply to not be an asshole. Be respectful of other people."
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United States41959 Posts
You can’t say thisOn February 01 2023 02:19 Acrofales wrote:
Let’s make an actual point. and then this
On February 01 2023 02:19 Acrofales wrote:
I just wonder... would you allow them into the non-terf bathroom?
What the fuck are you talking about?
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On February 01 2023 04:05 KwarK wrote:You can’t say this and then this Show nested quote +On February 01 2023 02:19 Acrofales wrote:
I just wonder... would you allow them into the non-terf bathroom? What the fuck are you talking about?
Do you really need me to spell it out for you?
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On February 01 2023 04:21 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2023 04:05 KwarK wrote:You can’t say this On February 01 2023 02:19 Acrofales wrote:
Let’s make an actual point. and then this On February 01 2023 02:19 Acrofales wrote:
I just wonder... would you allow them into the non-terf bathroom? What the fuck are you talking about? Do you really need me to spell it out for you?
If I'm reading right, you're treading down the path of Blue Lives Matter from American politics. So if that's not what you mean, perhaps some spelling out would be good.
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On January 31 2023 18:25 Simberto wrote:
I also think that "the left is dogmatic" is mostly said by people not of the left. I am generally left-wing, and i disagree with a lot of lefties about a lot of stuff. I think most lefties do. And i haven't been described as rightwing or a racist or anything like that yet. "The left" here in Germany encompasses a lot of different political views.
The trick is simply to not be an asshole. Be respectful of other people.
Who gives the criticism is irrelevant. For a criticism of the free market economy, I would not ask Hayek. But you're right the left is very broad and it's not all of the left I was talking about. My post lacked that nuance, as did yours about the right wing before to be fair. To rephrase myself: There is a significant part of the left that is dogmatic and authoritarian. For example, in The Netherlands just recently a sociology teacher wrote an article criticizing the diversity policy at the university he works at and how it is removing room for discussion. He now needs security to go work. And this is not an isolated incident. There have been similar cases in many countries over a long period of time.
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On February 01 2023 02:19 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2023 23:57 KwarK wrote:On January 31 2023 18:50 Acrofales wrote:On January 31 2023 18:34 KwarK wrote:On January 31 2023 18:25 Acrofales wrote:On January 31 2023 18:18 KwarK wrote:On January 31 2023 16:49 RvB wrote:
It is not just right wingers, many feminists are critical as well. The responses in the thread kind of prove Melliflue's point. You follow the dogma of the left or you're a right winger, racist, terf, or whatever new term there is. Are you unaware that terfs invented the term terfs to describe themselves? Are you unaware that despite its origin, it is now generally used in a derogatory manner? It’s not a slur, it’s a descriptor that they created for themselves. The fact that I say it with contempt doesn’t make it an insult, they’re just contemptible people. These people come out and tell us who they are and what they stand for. Accepting their definitions and taking them at their word isn’t derogatory. The idea that the left is somehow branding these people is nonsense, they’re openly preaching their beliefs, they want to be associated with those beliefs, they want to be accountable for them, they believe in them. Terfs are terfs and proud of it. Just like neo-Confederates, skinheads, incels, and so forth. That makes next to no sense. Just because there are people who invented the term and are proud to be called terfs, doesn't mean everybody who is called a terf (according to RvB) belongs to that group of proud-terfs. The fact that there are people who are proud to belong to a group doesn't stop it from being derogatory to others. For instance, I'm guessing you wouldn't be particularly pleased if I called you an incel! But I’m not an incel, I’m married with kids. It wouldn’t super bother me because it’d be absurd, no part of it fits. Have the people being called terfs tried not being terfs? They’d probably not be called terfs if they did that. Ah, what do you know, you myopic incel. EDIT: actually rather than me being childish to make a point, let's make an actual point. What you're saying is that regardless of what people self-identity as, you'll call them terfs if based on some outward characteristics you classify them as terfs... I just wonder... would you allow them into the non-terf bathroom? User was warned for this post
No need to look further than the childish point I was trying to make. Clearly someone at TL thinks me calling Kwark was insulting enough to give me a warning. So despite incel being a self-claimed tag that incels wear proudly, it turns out that OTHER people calling someone an incel can be insulting enough for a warning!
The same should obviously apply to terfs. If terfs want to self-identify as such, let them (as an aside: what idiot picks a word like terf, something that sounds like me clearing my throat, as their descriptor?). But don't ascribe terf-dom to people who don't necessarily self-identify as such, as it might be insulting. Just like TL.net clearly thinks incel is insulting if applied to random people!
The broader point was obviously that it's particularly ironic Kwark should pick that argument when discussing whether or not transgenders should be allowed to pick their own genders. Sure, gender is a special label (in that it means something beyond stupid internet discussions) unlike terf and incel, which are not protected parts of your identity, but if we're all about picking our own labels, shouldn't that go for all labels and not just the special ones? Why does Kwark get to determine who's a terf or not, but then complain when someone else wants to determine who's a male or not? Answer: Kwark really should be more careful when labelling people... or accept that terf can be used as a slur, and it's just a flavorful way of calling them an idiot (which I don't think of as a way for labelling people, rather than just disrespecting them... and some people deserve to be disrespected. Kwark and I agree on that!)
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United States41959 Posts
It’s a binary, either you believe that there’s a place for trans women under the umbrella of your radical feminism or you don’t. It’s up to the individual in question.
I wouldn’t call someone who believed in trans inclusive radical feminism a terf because they’re not a terf. And if I did they’d just react the same way I did to being called an incel, they’d point out that it’s obviously not so.
Whether or not a person is a terf is like whether or not they’re a Christian, it relates to their own beliefs, I can’t decide for them.
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I mean, should we look at a white person being racist and refrain from identifying them as white supremacists, just because some of them wear the label with pride? If being called a white supremacist upsets you, it might be worth examining why that is, but the best solution is just to stop acting like a white supremacist.
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