UK Politics Mega-thread - Page 594

On May 08 2021 11:58 m4ini wrote:
Are we still blaming "the thems" for Corbyn being unelectable? It was "the media", it was "the infighting", it was "the thems" - but clearly it had nothing to do with people simply not responding well to hardcore socialism while watching on TV people cart stacks and stacks of money worthless paper to the bakery to buy bread, or Corbyn not being able to take a stance on Brexit, going with the incredibly courageous "well you guys get to vote again on the deal WE might get, including remain"? Like, how is a normal person with half a brain supposed to vote for someone who can't even take a stand for A: his own shortcomings or B: his own political views? And not just himself, but the absolutely blind people arguing that only external factors led to the most tragic loss any living labour voter has ever seen - but clearly not Corbyn?

I live in rural wales, in a labour dominated region. Not a single person i've talked to here voted for Corbyn - which includes my in laws, Labour voters for almost 50 years.

It's not surprising that the ogres come back out of the woods to gloat now though, i mean it's entirely Keir Starmers fault that in almost(!) an entire year he didn't get Labour back to its old glory, after the 2019 disaster. I mean, who else would one blame, considering Corbyn and his policies (and in fact, the lack thereof) can't be faulted.

I do agree with one thing though. He clearly hasn't done enough to weed out the delusionals in the Labour party.

You see, the problem with living in an echo chamber, is that you tend to miss realities. The reality is, people didn't support Corbyn nor his policies. Infighting did jack shit in regards to the disaster - Tories have been infighting ever since 2016, to the point where they torpedoed a prime minister from their own ranks. So fuck off with "it's the thems that are to blame" - it's not.

In fact, you could do the smart thing and just check approval ratings for Corbyn himself.

2017: average approval 43%, disapproval 46%
2018: average approval 30%, disapproval 55%.
2019: average approval 22%, disapproval 64%.

His 2019 numbers get topped by Farage. How anyone can look at these numbers and go "well yeah, Corbyn was the greatest thing that happened to Labour since sliced bread" is absolutely beyond me.

It's not a question of whether or not he's electable, there's zero debate. He wasn't. And it's clear as day. The only question is why nobody in Labour gave a shit about his approval ratings and thought they could win with someone at the helm that's basically unilaterally disliked - and got more and more disliked the longer he was at the helm. It was never good, but is has only gotten worse, rapidly. Even Theresa May didn't poll as badly. And she was literally hounded out by her own party.

Understand that Corbyn isn't unilaterally seen as the missed chance for a saviour. Understand that it's quite the opposite. Then you'll understand why 2019 happened, and why the damage isn't immediately repairable - though, i certainly do think that KS should actually put the hammer down. I don't understand why anything left of centre in the UK isn't able to take a stance for his policies.

On May 08 2021 11:58 m4ini wrote:
Are we still blaming "the thems" for Corbyn being unelectable? It was "the media", it was "the infighting", it was "the thems" - but clearly it had nothing to do with people simply not responding well to hardcore socialism while watching on TV people cart stacks and stacks of money worthless paper to the bakery to buy bread, or Corbyn not being able to take a stance on Brexit, going with the incredibly courageous "well you guys get to vote again on the deal WE might get, including remain"? Like, how is a normal person with half a brain supposed to vote for someone who can't even take a stand for A: his own shortcomings or B: his own political views? And not just himself, but the absolutely blind people arguing that only external factors led to the most tragic loss any living labour voter has ever seen - but clearly not Corbyn?

I live in rural wales, in a labour dominated region. Not a single person i've talked to here voted for Corbyn - which includes my in laws, Labour voters for almost 50 years.

It's not surprising that the ogres come back out of the woods to gloat now though, i mean it's entirely Keir Starmers fault that in almost(!) an entire year he didn't get Labour back to its old glory, after the 2019 disaster. I mean, who else would one blame, considering Corbyn and his policies (and in fact, the lack thereof) can't be faulted.

I do agree with one thing though. He clearly hasn't done enough to weed out the delusionals in the Labour party.

You see, the problem with living in an echo chamber, is that you tend to miss realities. The reality is, people didn't support Corbyn nor his policies. Infighting did jack shit in regards to the disaster - Tories have been infighting ever since 2016, to the point where they torpedoed a prime minister from their own ranks. So fuck off with "it's the thems that are to blame" - it's not.

In fact, you could do the smart thing and just check approval ratings for Corbyn himself.

2017: average approval 43%, disapproval 46%
2018: average approval 30%, disapproval 55%.
2019: average approval 22%, disapproval 64%.

His 2019 numbers get topped by Farage. How anyone can look at these numbers and go "well yeah, Corbyn was the greatest thing that happened to Labour since sliced bread" is absolutely beyond me.

It's not a question of whether or not he's electable, there's zero debate. He wasn't. And it's clear as day. The only question is why nobody in Labour gave a shit about his approval ratings and thought they could win with someone at the helm that's basically unilaterally disliked - and got more and more disliked the longer he was at the helm. It was never good, but is has only gotten worse, rapidly. Even Theresa May didn't poll as badly. And she was literally hounded out by her own party.

Understand that Corbyn isn't unilaterally seen as the missed chance for a saviour. Understand that it's quite the opposite. Then you'll understand why 2019 happened, and why the damage isn't immediately repairable - though, i certainly do think that KS should actually put the hammer down. I don't understand why anything left of centre in the UK isn't able to take a stance for his policies.

edit: as a sidenote, people who argue that Corbyn can't be blamed for losing Hartlepool, that that's entirely on Starmer, you might want to check the 2019 results. The ONLY reason Labour held Hartlepool in 2019 is that the Brexit Party ran against the tories. In 2019, labour had 37% (-15%) of the vote, Tories 29% (-5%) and the Brexit Party 26% (+26%). Again. The only reason Labour didn't lose Hartlepool in 2019 already is simply that the vote was split between Tories and Brexit Party. Not enough? In 2015, Labour lost 7% too. To the UKIP, which won 28%. Guess where those votes went now, with neither party running.

Hint: not gonna be Labour. To blame Starmer for losing Hartlepool, when in reality it was close to lost already in 2015, and definitely lost in 2019 is funny at best.

The Birmingham MP Khalid Mahmood, who recently resigned as a shadow defence minister, said the Hartlepool result reflected the fact Labour had left its traditional voters behind. He said he would no longer be willing to serve on the frontbench.

“A London-based bourgeoisie, with the support of brigades of woke social media warriors, has effectively captured the party. They mean well, of course, but their politics – obsessed with identity, division and even tech utopianism – have more in common with those of Californian high society than the kind of people who voted in Hartlepool yesterday,”

On May 08 2021 11:58 m4ini wrote:
It's not surprising that the ogres come back out of the woods to gloat now though, i mean it's entirely Keir Starmers fault that in almost(!) an entire year he didn't get Labour back to its old glory, after the 2019 disaster. I mean, who else would one blame, considering Corbyn and his policies (and in fact, the lack thereof) can't be faulted.

On May 08 2021 15:04 Jockmcplop wrote:


Starmer got absolutely crushed in Hartlepool, Corbyn didn't lose it.
This has very little to do with Corbyn.
Starmer has offered absolutely nothing. Absolutely nothing.
There's a difference between accepting that Corbyn screwed up terribly in 2019 and blaming him for all Starmer's failures. I guess Corbyn is your 'them'.




What he's saying includes both Corbyn and Starmer, and is a big part of the reason Labour is losing in the North. Where are the working class politicians? For a party that's all about the working class, Labour has turned into a party that both resents them and completely fails to understand them.

I recommend you read the following for a glimpse into the extent of Starmer's complete failure in Hartlepool. The way this campaign was fought (at the behest of Labour HQ) alienated literally everyone and didn't gain votes anywhere.
You can't blame Corbyn for that, unfortunately.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/07/obsessed-with-the-flag-labour-recriminations-begin-in-hartlepool

On May 11 2021 03:33 Melliflue wrote:
To add to Jock's post:
I live in a "Red Wall" area and when I have talked to people about Labour I often hear them say that Labour has abandoned them. They see Labour as the party of middle-class 'wokes', who call Brexit voters racists, and university students who will protest to remove a statue or rename a building but not for the people who cannot afford to feed their family or have been told they live in a multi-storey tinderbox.

The Fire Safety Bill is a perfect example of what people dislike about Labour. The bill was passed at the end of April and left leaseholders responsible for paying for bringing the buildings up to code. Labour should have made this a big story. Starmer should have been outside Grenfell with a camera crew. Instead he went to John Lewis for a photo-op because of Boris's flat redecoration.

Labour need to talk to people and not assume they'll always vote Labour because they always did. Labour also shouldn't treat these people with contempt, which seems so obvious that I cannot believe I need to write it. The infighting is irrelevant to these people. They don't care at all. They care that they must wait 4 weeks to see their GP (that was how long I needed to wait when I last saw my GP in 2019). They care about the day-to-day of their lives, and they want to be listened to, not patronised.


Also, this may be a bit reductionist but 2019 was mostly about Brexit and 2021 was about vaccinations.

On May 11 2021 04:15 WombaT wrote:

I wouldn’t say it’s reductionist, seems eminently the case far as I can tell. Even if you nail everything else, straddling a coalition that is so split by Brexit is bloody hard, and there’s almost a war footing insulating the incumbents now.

Moving forward though, absolutely. I feel but may be entirely wrong in this but the problem isn’t the ‘woke stuff’ in and of itself, it’s a perception that there’s a pursuit of the ‘woke agenda’ instead of the things which more tangibly impact people’s material conditions. A certain cohort of people may not like the pulling down of x statue, but could probably live with it if it came with things that helped them out in life.

For all Labour’s many faults, it is rather strange that the Conservatives aren’t suffering more from incumbent fatigue, especially given their record in certain areas. From my recollection it was sheer fatigue and wanting change for change’s sake that lead to the last switch of power from red to blue.

For all I’d be critical of Labour in recent years, it does feel to me they can’t get in by being better than the Tories in the mind of the electorate, they seemingly have to be perceived as much better to flip things around.

Why this is I’m rather unsure, open to theories!

On June 27 2021 02:39 Artisreal wrote:
First correct decision of the health secretary is his resignation.
During a pandemic mind you.

What a shitshow.

Also Brexit and the UK government's fantasized encompassing preparedness for it seems to be catching up with reality.
Although how much is due to covid instead of Brexit is open to debate. At least I have not heard of drugs being in short supply yet.

On June 28 2021 17:11 Melliflue wrote:
I think the anger over Hancock is more about violating social distancing than infidelity. He told people not to mix with other households indoors, which included friends and family, and told people not to hug anyone not in your household but was not following those rules himself.

On June 28 2021 20:05 WombaT wrote:

Indeed, you are correct. Sorry that wasn’t my point I could have communicated it better.

It’s not that people are wrong, or that he shouldn’t have resigned, but why wasn’t the anger way higher at the peak of the pandemic when he was overseeing considerably worse practices that would invariably lead to people dying?

Al Capone’s downfall being over tax evasion kind of thing.

On June 28 2021 11:39 WombaT wrote:

It’s a damning indictment of people’s sensibilities that this is a resign level offence but, the clear on-record and indisputable level of cronyism and utter incompetence over Covid contracts and billions of public pounds isn’t. I’m genuinely baffled how this is out in the public domain and people just shrug, but getting a shag is just fucking awful.

Not that I disagree that his conduct, as with Dominic Cummings was egregious and worth losing his job over, but the disparity in public outrage (at large, excluding those like me who will generally hate Tory antics) is just baffling to me.

Is it catching up though? Or being more accurate is the perception of reality catching up with the actual reality? Seems to be a lag on both.

Perhaps I’m not sufficiently tapped in to the national mood but it seems what anger there was about the awful handling of Covid has dissipated, when it existed in the first place apart from the general left leaning of the populace.

The relative success of the vaccination effort seems to have both wiped memories of the shitshow that came before it, and additionally is a stick to beat the comparable efforts of EU countries with.

Plus there’s just a general morale boost of football, travel, pubs being open etc that I’d imagine would (if even temporarily) rather defuse anger.

On June 28 2021 20:05 WombaT wrote:

Indeed, you are correct. Sorry that wasn’t my point I could have communicated it better.

It’s not that people are wrong, or that he shouldn’t have resigned, but why wasn’t the anger way higher at the peak of the pandemic when he was overseeing considerably worse practices that would invariably lead to people dying?

Al Capone’s downfall being over tax evasion kind of thing.

On June 29 2021 03:03 Melliflue wrote:

My guess is that a year ago the government always had the dual defence of "this is happening in other countries too" and more prominently "we are following the science". They did a good job of passing the buck for many of the early mistakes onto scientists, and our lockdowns/easing of lockdowns mirrored other countries on the European mainland - despite having more cases and deaths - which gave the impression that we were doing no worse than they were.