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On April 22 2018 20:46 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2018 20:05 sc-darkness wrote:
Still, if they didn't apply for citizenship while living in that same country, something was wrong with their mindset unless government refused to give them one. They share some of blame in my opinion. Let's agree to disagree and call it a day. You won't change my opinion and I won't change yours. You are mind bogglingly ignorant of the circumstances, blaming the people affected is absolutely insane.
No one denies they're affected. But being the ridiculous leftie you are, you have to understand that if you live 5+ years in another country, you should have the mindset to get a citizenship one day. Why didn't ask for one? Were they denied one? I'm not saying they share most of blame, but they share some at least. Obviously governments over 70 years could have done more.
I don't care if they could be treated like EU nationals in another EU country. Even EU nationals apply for citizenship one day.
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On April 22 2018 20:54 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2018 20:46 kollin wrote:On April 22 2018 20:05 sc-darkness wrote:
Still, if they didn't apply for citizenship while living in that same country, something was wrong with their mindset unless government refused to give them one. They share some of blame in my opinion. Let's agree to disagree and call it a day. You won't change my opinion and I won't change yours. You are mind bogglingly ignorant of the circumstances, blaming the people affected is absolutely insane. No one denies they're affected. But being the ridiculous leftie you are, you have to understand that if you live 5+ years in another country, you should have the mindset to get a citizenship one day. Why didn't ask for one? Were they denied one? I'm not saying they share most of blame, but they share some at least. Obviously governments over 70 years could have done more. I don't care if they could be treated like EU nationals in another EU country. Even EU nationals apply for citizenship one day.
A quick check shows me that it costs 866 euro's just to request a Dutch citizenship, doing it with a partner is 1105. Kids another 128 each, not counting any additional costs you might incur. Plenty of families won't just spend 1500 bucks if they don't have to.
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On April 22 2018 21:45 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2018 20:54 sc-darkness wrote:On April 22 2018 20:46 kollin wrote:On April 22 2018 20:05 sc-darkness wrote:
Still, if they didn't apply for citizenship while living in that same country, something was wrong with their mindset unless government refused to give them one. They share some of blame in my opinion. Let's agree to disagree and call it a day. You won't change my opinion and I won't change yours. You are mind bogglingly ignorant of the circumstances, blaming the people affected is absolutely insane. No one denies they're affected. But being the ridiculous leftie you are, you have to understand that if you live 5+ years in another country, you should have the mindset to get a citizenship one day. Why didn't ask for one? Were they denied one? I'm not saying they share most of blame, but they share some at least. Obviously governments over 70 years could have done more. I don't care if they could be treated like EU nationals in another EU country. Even EU nationals apply for citizenship one day. A quick check shows me that it costs 866 euro's just to request a Dutch citizenship, doing it with a partner is 1105. Kids another 128 each, not counting any additional costs you might incur. Plenty of families won't just spend 1500 bucks if they don't have to.
Sure, it's not cheap but if your goal is to get a citizenship, 1500 for 5 years (300/year) is possible. That's how much you have to wait from your arrival to the day you can apply for a citizenship.
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On April 22 2018 22:02 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2018 21:45 Gorsameth wrote:On April 22 2018 20:54 sc-darkness wrote:On April 22 2018 20:46 kollin wrote:On April 22 2018 20:05 sc-darkness wrote:
Still, if they didn't apply for citizenship while living in that same country, something was wrong with their mindset unless government refused to give them one. They share some of blame in my opinion. Let's agree to disagree and call it a day. You won't change my opinion and I won't change yours. You are mind bogglingly ignorant of the circumstances, blaming the people affected is absolutely insane. No one denies they're affected. But being the ridiculous leftie you are, you have to understand that if you live 5+ years in another country, you should have the mindset to get a citizenship one day. Why didn't ask for one? Were they denied one? I'm not saying they share most of blame, but they share some at least. Obviously governments over 70 years could have done more. I don't care if they could be treated like EU nationals in another EU country. Even EU nationals apply for citizenship one day. A quick check shows me that it costs 866 euro's just to request a Dutch citizenship, doing it with a partner is 1105. Kids another 128 each, not counting any additional costs you might incur. Plenty of families won't just spend 1500 bucks if they don't have to. Sure, it's not cheap but if your goal is to get a citizenship, 1500 for 5 years (300/year) is possible. That's how much you have to wait from your arrival to the day you can apply for a citizenship.
If you arrived in the country as a child, grew up in the country, went to school, work and save a pension, pay income tax, were legally treated as if you were a citizen into your 60s then it's pretty reasonable to assume you actually ARE a citizen and not expect to do something. Indeed, they didn't need to do anything until a few years ago anyway. Your position is pretty extreme.
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On April 22 2018 22:02 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2018 21:45 Gorsameth wrote:On April 22 2018 20:54 sc-darkness wrote:On April 22 2018 20:46 kollin wrote:On April 22 2018 20:05 sc-darkness wrote:
Still, if they didn't apply for citizenship while living in that same country, something was wrong with their mindset unless government refused to give them one. They share some of blame in my opinion. Let's agree to disagree and call it a day. You won't change my opinion and I won't change yours. You are mind bogglingly ignorant of the circumstances, blaming the people affected is absolutely insane. No one denies they're affected. But being the ridiculous leftie you are, you have to understand that if you live 5+ years in another country, you should have the mindset to get a citizenship one day. Why didn't ask for one? Were they denied one? I'm not saying they share most of blame, but they share some at least. Obviously governments over 70 years could have done more. I don't care if they could be treated like EU nationals in another EU country. Even EU nationals apply for citizenship one day. A quick check shows me that it costs 866 euro's just to request a Dutch citizenship, doing it with a partner is 1105. Kids another 128 each, not counting any additional costs you might incur. Plenty of families won't just spend 1500 bucks if they don't have to. Sure, it's not cheap but if your goal is to get a citizenship, 1500 for 5 years (300/year) is possible. That's how much you have to wait from your arrival to the day you can apply for a citizenship. Why is my goal citizenship if I can legally live and work in the country without it.
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On April 22 2018 22:19 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2018 22:02 sc-darkness wrote:On April 22 2018 21:45 Gorsameth wrote:On April 22 2018 20:54 sc-darkness wrote:On April 22 2018 20:46 kollin wrote:On April 22 2018 20:05 sc-darkness wrote:
Still, if they didn't apply for citizenship while living in that same country, something was wrong with their mindset unless government refused to give them one. They share some of blame in my opinion. Let's agree to disagree and call it a day. You won't change my opinion and I won't change yours. You are mind bogglingly ignorant of the circumstances, blaming the people affected is absolutely insane. No one denies they're affected. But being the ridiculous leftie you are, you have to understand that if you live 5+ years in another country, you should have the mindset to get a citizenship one day. Why didn't ask for one? Were they denied one? I'm not saying they share most of blame, but they share some at least. Obviously governments over 70 years could have done more. I don't care if they could be treated like EU nationals in another EU country. Even EU nationals apply for citizenship one day. A quick check shows me that it costs 866 euro's just to request a Dutch citizenship, doing it with a partner is 1105. Kids another 128 each, not counting any additional costs you might incur. Plenty of families won't just spend 1500 bucks if they don't have to. Sure, it's not cheap but if your goal is to get a citizenship, 1500 for 5 years (300/year) is possible. That's how much you have to wait from your arrival to the day you can apply for a citizenship. Why is my goal citizenship if I can legally live and work in the country without it.
Citizenship exists for a reason. Being treated like a citizen of another country isn't the same as we could see as EU nationals after the Brexit referendum. Rules could change. Personally, I prefer to play it safe in this case. It's about mindset which some people won't figure out here because they're too stubborn with their agenda of blaming only the Tories. Sure, they made it more difficult, but there were things both the Windrush generation and 70 years of governments could have done better.
I don't think I'll discuss further in this thread if you don't:
- acknowledge it's not just the Tories, but Labour didn't take extra steps to grant them citizenship even if it wasn't required at the time. Both parties didn't think about the future.
- acknowledge that it was at least a good idea for the Windrush generation to apply for citizenship
If you don't agree, that's fine and it's called democracy but I don't see a reason to write another post about what I said above.
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On April 22 2018 22:32 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2018 22:19 Gorsameth wrote:On April 22 2018 22:02 sc-darkness wrote:On April 22 2018 21:45 Gorsameth wrote:On April 22 2018 20:54 sc-darkness wrote:On April 22 2018 20:46 kollin wrote:On April 22 2018 20:05 sc-darkness wrote:
Still, if they didn't apply for citizenship while living in that same country, something was wrong with their mindset unless government refused to give them one. They share some of blame in my opinion. Let's agree to disagree and call it a day. You won't change my opinion and I won't change yours. You are mind bogglingly ignorant of the circumstances, blaming the people affected is absolutely insane. No one denies they're affected. But being the ridiculous leftie you are, you have to understand that if you live 5+ years in another country, you should have the mindset to get a citizenship one day. Why didn't ask for one? Were they denied one? I'm not saying they share most of blame, but they share some at least. Obviously governments over 70 years could have done more. I don't care if they could be treated like EU nationals in another EU country. Even EU nationals apply for citizenship one day. A quick check shows me that it costs 866 euro's just to request a Dutch citizenship, doing it with a partner is 1105. Kids another 128 each, not counting any additional costs you might incur. Plenty of families won't just spend 1500 bucks if they don't have to. Sure, it's not cheap but if your goal is to get a citizenship, 1500 for 5 years (300/year) is possible. That's how much you have to wait from your arrival to the day you can apply for a citizenship. Why is my goal citizenship if I can legally live and work in the country without it. Citizenship exists for a reason. Being treated like a citizen of another country isn't the same as we could see as EU nationals after the Brexit referendum. Rules could change. Personally, I prefer to play it safe in this case. It's about mindset which some people won't figure out here because they're too stubborn with their agenda of blaming only the Tories. Sure, they made it more difficult, but there were things both the Windrush generation and 70 years of governments could have done better. I don't think I'll discuss further in this thread if you don't: - acknowledge it's not just the Tories, but Labour didn't take extra steps to grant them citizenship even if it wasn't required at the time. Both parties didn't think about the future.
- acknowledge that it was at least a good idea for the Windrush generation to apply for citizenship
If you don't agree, that's fine and it's called democracy but I don't see a reason to write another post about what I said above.
It was the Tories because they've specifically legislated against immigrants in a way that has, unsurprisingly, affected people living here legitimately! It is not that the problem is a result of years of failure to act by successive governments, or governments refusing to acknowledge a problem that has been bubbling under the surface for quite some time now. It's that a specific piece of legislation in 2014, combined with the destruction of the landing cards, has created this problem. Now you can say it might've been prudent for the Windrush generation to apply for citizenship, or that Labour should've consulted their Oracle in order to foresee the issues a specific elision of decisions taken in the future would result in, but that doesn't negate the fact that the responsibility and culpability lies with the current elected government, under who this problem was created.
There are plenty of events that people in this thread, myself included, will happily apportion blame to Labour too. The reason that nobody is doing so for this specific fuckup is because it really, genuinely is the Conservatives' fault.
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United States43989 Posts
On April 22 2018 20:05 sc-darkness wrote:
Still, if they didn't apply for citizenship while living in that same country, something was wrong with their mindset unless government refused to give them one. They share some of blame in my opinion. Let's agree to disagree and call it a day. You won't change my opinion and I won't change yours.
They had valid citizenship already. Not UK citizenship, but they didn't need UK citizenship.
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Its nothing to do with citizenship they were wrongly classed as illegal immigrants and couldn't prove otherwise because of stringent requirements and the government effectively destroying its own records. There would be nothing to gain (except avoiding this stupid error which should never have happened in the first place) by the windrush generation applying for UK citizenship because they were Commonwealth citizens which allows them to vote, stand for political office, to live in the country and enjoy full rights. I believe only after joining the EU did we then place restrictions on commonwealth citizens rights to move and live here but then if permission is given they enjoy the same voting rights etc as a UK citizen.
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Immigration in the UK has always been a fuckfest. One the Tories love to make more complicated. The Labour government historically has tried to fix problems Tories create but not open the net even wider because even on the left, immigration is a somewhat sensitive topic (we mostly feel there's enough but don't want too much more).
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Happy Ed Balls day everyone!
I woke up this morning and all of the sausage rolls had gone from my fridge. Ed Balls has been.
Ed Balls.
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Well anything could happen now seeing as Theresa May is the main cause of Windrush that has caused Amber to resign.
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She openly lied to Parliament that there wasn't targets for removing immigrants; it really isn't suprising that she felt moved to resign the day before she would be questioned over it.
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Theresa May could be in a lot more trouble tommorow with David Davis the man in charge of negotiating the brexit deal looking like he is going to walk out.
Ian Dale Political confident of Davis says:
Meanwhile most of the cabinet are on maneuvers
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This sort of thing is pretty inevitable. The government doesn't have a 'right' solution to the problem they've put themselves in. Davis hasn't done an especially good job and his credibility is now badly damaged, despite his experience in the role and his obvious knowledge of how it all works. Too much cloak-and-dagger.
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On June 07 2018 17:09 iamthedave wrote:
This sort of thing is pretty inevitable. The government doesn't have a 'right' solution to the problem they've put themselves in. Davis hasn't done an especially good job and his credibility is now badly damaged, despite his experience in the role and his obvious knowledge of how it all works. Too much cloak-and-dagger.
I think the EU negotiators have done a really good job of humiliating Davis at every turn. The message we are getting from the EU is the the UK team has approached negotiations in a haphazard, unprepared and disorganized manner. I'm not sure whether we should take that with a pinch of salt though.
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On June 07 2018 18:18 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 17:09 iamthedave wrote:
This sort of thing is pretty inevitable. The government doesn't have a 'right' solution to the problem they've put themselves in. Davis hasn't done an especially good job and his credibility is now badly damaged, despite his experience in the role and his obvious knowledge of how it all works. Too much cloak-and-dagger. I think the EU negotiators have done a really good job of humiliating Davis at every turn. The message we are getting from the EU is the the UK team has approached negotiations in a haphazard, unprepared and disorganized manner. I'm not sure whether we should take that with a pinch of salt though. I wouldn't expect the EU to outright lie about that, tho its possible.
I more wonder how much of it would be because of Davis's mistakes and how much is simply not having the time or direction needed from the government about what he is trying to accomplish.
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Imagine being given that task though. Poor guy.
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On June 07 2018 18:38 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 18:18 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 07 2018 17:09 iamthedave wrote:
This sort of thing is pretty inevitable. The government doesn't have a 'right' solution to the problem they've put themselves in. Davis hasn't done an especially good job and his credibility is now badly damaged, despite his experience in the role and his obvious knowledge of how it all works. Too much cloak-and-dagger. I think the EU negotiators have done a really good job of humiliating Davis at every turn. The message we are getting from the EU is the the UK team has approached negotiations in a haphazard, unprepared and disorganized manner. I'm not sure whether we should take that with a pinch of salt though. I wouldn't expect the EU to outright lie about that, tho its possible. I more wonder how much of it would be because of Davis's mistakes and how much is simply not having the time or direction needed from the government about what he is trying to accomplish.
I can see why they would lie about it. Pretty much everyone still wants us to back out of Brexit, and the political situation in the UK is 'fluid' to say the least.
I'm not saying they are lying though. The tories do have a reputation for carrying out policy in a short sighted and disorganized manner, but then the EU would surely play that aspect up to turn the public against Brexit if they can.
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EPT
