EPTUK Politics Mega-thread - Page 182
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On June 30 2016 06:12 kollin wrote: Who knew all the MPs who voted for the Iraq war are suddenly trying to oust the Labour leader who would call out Blair in Commons weeks before the Chilcot report... They didn't get elected on a Corbyn ticket, they got elected on a Milliband ticket. Corbyn didn't lead, and doesn't have the same philosophy as the one the Labour party had when the MPs were elected. They (reasonably rightfully) are considering their electorate rather than their party leader. While that may be pure self interest, rather than actually caring about the electorate, the two interests happen to coincide. They are MPs of the Labour Party, but they were elected by the electorate on a Labour Party manifesto that isn't the same as the direction Corbyn seems to want. The fact that the underlying core Labour party has changed direction from the direction when they were elected isn't their fault, but it is their problem. They are trying to be a party that represents the interests of their electorate rather than their party membership, which currently aren't aligned. They want a leader who will lead them in the direction people want/expected, not the direction the Party Membership wants. Basically the problem is that the Labour Party and the Labour Electorate are not the same and have sufficiently different view to cause a schism between the leader, elected by the Party Membership, and the MPs, elected by the Electorate. I am not sure anyone will give an ounce of sympathy to Blair when the Chilcot report comes out. It's also not (entirely) the fault of the MPs that the Leave vote won and Corbyn failed to lead on it, which cause the whole mess in the first place that happens to be at the same time as the Chilcot report. They hardly planned for the two things to be happening at the same time. Trying to make up conspiracy theories just makes you sound like a nutter. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On June 30 2016 06:19 Lonyo wrote: They didn't get elected on a Corbyn ticket, they got elected on a Milliband ticket. Corbyn didn't lead, and doesn't have the same philosophy as the one the Labour party had when the MPs were elected. They (reasonably rightfully) are considering their electorate rather than their party leader. While that may be pure self interest, rather than actually caring about the electorate, the two interests happen to coincide. They are MPs of the Labour Party, but they were elected by the electorate on a Labour Party manifesto that isn't the same as the direction Corbyn seems to want. The fact that the underlying core Labour party has changed direction from the direction when they were elected isn't their fault, but it is their problem. They are trying to be a party that represents the interests of their electorate rather than their party membership, which currently aren't aligned. They want a leader who will lead them in the direction people want/expected, not the direction the Party Membership wants. Basically the problem is that the Labour Party and the Labour Electorate are not the same and have sufficiently different view to cause a schism between the leader, elected by the Party Membership, and the MPs, elected by the Electorate. I am not sure anyone will give an ounce of sympathy to Blair when the Chilcot report comes out. It's also not (entirely) the fault of the MPs that the Leave vote won and Corbyn failed to lead on it, which cause the whole mess in the first place that happens to be at the same time as the Chilcot report. They hardly planned for the two things to be happening at the same time. Trying to make up conspiracy theories just makes you sound like a nutter. Angela Eagle praised Corbyn's campaign two weeks ago saying he worked an itinerary that would've made a 25 year old tired. The fact they waited to oust him now, and chose not to wait until the Tories had somewhat stabilised (because it's hard to criticise their implosion when you're doing the same) suggests there's something more than the interest of the electorate - which would be best represented by a unified opposition - at stake. | ||
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On June 30 2016 06:42 kollin wrote: Angela Eagle praised Corbyn's campaign two weeks ago saying he worked an itinerary that would've made a 25 year old tired. The fact they waited to oust him now, and chose not to wait until the Tories had somewhat stabilised (because it's hard to criticise their implosion when you're doing the same) suggests there's something more than the interest of the electorate - which would be best represented by a unified opposition - at stake. According to the media for most of the first part of the year, she's been planning a coup to happen before the Labour Autumn conference. The fact it's happening now is because of the Brexit vote. http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/04/05/angela-eagle-could-become-first-lgbt-labour-leader-following-corbyn-coup/ http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/02/28/angela-eagle-jeremy-corbyn-marr_n_9340712.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/03/a-coup-against-jeremy-corbyn-is-probably-doomed-but-labour-still/ http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/14/tom-watsontells-labour-mps-plotting--corbyn--calm-down | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
It's already been too long, as shown by the Leave vote. The best time was the day after he got elected leader. Each day after that was also the best time after that, right up to when it finally happened. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On June 30 2016 07:16 Lonyo wrote: The whole fucking point is that they don't believe Corbyn can lead for shit. The longer they wait the more terrible the timing is, because he's a shitshow of a leader. It's already been too long, as shown by the Leave vote. The best time was the day after he got elected leader. Each day after that was also the best time after that, right up to when it finally happened. You're blaming the Leave vote, in which over 60% of Labour voters voted Remain on Corbyn? And you think the fact that the pro-Iraq MPs waited until just weeks before Chilcot to launch this coup is purely coincidence? I don't have much faith left in Jeremy to lead Labour, but let's not pretend the MPs involved in ousting him are much better. The only person emerging from this all who I could ever support as leader is Andy Burnham, but the boat sailed long ago there. | ||
KwarK
United States44321 Posts
On June 30 2016 07:30 kollin wrote: You're blaming the Leave vote, in which over 60% of Labour voters voted Remain on Corbyn? Obviously he's not solely to blame and I don't think anyone is saying that he is. But it's not like Labour MPs can oust Cameron, even if they think he holds more of the blame. They're focusing their efforts on the problem they can solve. And I think it's perfectly fair to say that Corbyn could have done more to support the Remain vote. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On June 30 2016 07:43 KwarK wrote: Obviously he's not solely to blame and I don't think anyone is saying that he is. But it's not like Labour MPs can oust Cameron, even if they think he holds more of the blame. They're focusing their efforts on the problem they can solve. And I think it's perfectly fair to say that Corbyn could have done more to support the Remain vote. I completely agree, in my opinion he was very lukewarm on the EU, and it's swung my opinion of him quite significantly. I'm just not sure he would have made 1.7 million voters' worth of difference or however many it was had he delivered a stronger message, and I'm not sure anyone in the Labour Party currently could have made that difference either. | ||
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Holy_AT
Austria978 Posts
Many fans feel betrayed by this. Even Wayne Rooney was distrought by the fact that you are actually gona loose if you let the ball in your goal. Many brits and fans have started to petion against the Iceland game and ask for a repeat of the game. Nigel Farage commented on the issue, that he does not see the game as a loss, but as a victory for the simple people in their battle against the elites! | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On June 30 2016 07:43 KwarK wrote: Obviously he's not solely to blame and I don't think anyone is saying that he is. But it's not like Labour MPs can oust Cameron, even if they think he holds more of the blame. They're focusing their efforts on the problem they can solve. And I think it's perfectly fair to say that Corbyn could have done more to support the Remain vote. They can't oust Corbyn either, they can force a spill but if Corbyn's on it the members will just vote him in again, what then? | ||
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Diabolique
Czech Republic5118 Posts
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Laurens
Belgium4558 Posts
On June 30 2016 17:23 Diabolique wrote: I still don't get it, why everyone cares about some opposition party break-up, when the main topic should be BREXIT and the new PM. So this Michael Gove is a candidate ... saying that the famous football player Boris the dream would probably not be capable to create a team and lead the negotiations ... Who is he? Is he a good guy? Popular guy? Not a stupid guy? In a country with a 2-party system, one of the 2 parties having a crisis like this is big news. The Brexit shock is over, and now nothing will happen until September, can't discuss it forever. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6322 Posts
On June 30 2016 05:32 Sbrubbles wrote: An overwhelming number of economists agree that brexit is a terrible move, no doubt about that, but I would point out (recent poll of british economits) that while the significant majority (72% in this case) see a negative long term effect, is it less than the 88% who agree on short term effects. Moreso, the poll asks about an impact of brexit over the level of gdp, so if most believed in a negative effect on long term growth, that number should have gone up from 88%, as the negative effect accumulates, not down to 72%. I know this poll is probably not what you were refering to when making the overwhelming number of economists argument, but I feel it's representative (also, it was the first one that showed up when googled). You are making specific sectorial arguments about who will lose with brexit, and I have no problem with that (and overall agree!), but long term growth is not about which industries win or lose, it's about productivity. You might have a good argument there about loss of EU subsidies for science; I'll admit I know nothing about that. That is because the long term effects are dependent on what will still happen. Mostly retaining access to the single market. Fact is thst the British economy is reliant on services and thus human capital. Companies moving to other countries(already happening) and limiting immigration (likely to happen) are both negatives for this. Productivity growth is already weak and this will not make it any better. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
On June 30 2016 18:09 Laurens wrote: In a country with a 2-party system, one of the 2 parties having a crisis like this is big news. The Brexit shock is over, and now nothing will happen until September, can't discuss it forever. More importantly, when the current PM resigns you kinda partly expect to somewhat soon have to go for a vote. When the opposition literally implodes during a period which should be the easiest of their life (wash your hands, point fingers, lean back) it makes you wonder how inept they really are. EDIT: Fucking lol - it only gets more juicy from here apparently. If anyone ever wondered what tragicomedy is - this is it (although I'm not sure there are actually enough comedy in it to really qualify). | ||
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
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Diabolique
Czech Republic5118 Posts
On June 30 2016 17:23 Diabolique wrote: I still don't get it, why everyone cares about some opposition party break-up, when the main topic should be BREXIT and the new PM. So this Michael Gove is a candidate ... saying that the famous football player Boris the dream would probably not be capable to create a team and lead the negotiations ... Who is he? Is he a good guy? Popular guy? Not a stupid guy? Yes, that is what I meant, when I asked about Gove. Is he a better guy than Boris the dream? | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On June 30 2016 19:16 Diabolique wrote: Yes, that is what I meant, when I asked about Gove. Is he a better guy than Boris the dream? Make up your mind.. | ||
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
Micheal Gove the man who destroyed Boris Johnson | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4455 Posts
Fair point really. How many "experts" predicted the GFC? Heck even the economic "experts" on twitter have gone quiet now the FTSE is above the level it was before the vote.... | ||
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