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On June 29 2016 01:44 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 01:11 ThomasjServo wrote:On June 29 2016 00:59 LegalLord wrote:On June 28 2016 19:00 RvB wrote:German Chancellor Angela Merkel warned the U.K. to avoid illusions about future relations with the European Union, saying it won’t get favored treatment once it leaves the bloc.
“We will ensure the cherry-picking principle won’t apply in the negotiations,” Merkel said to applause in a speech to Germany’s lower house of parliament Tuesday. “There must be -- and there will be -- a palpable difference between a country that wants to be part of the European Union and one that doesn’t.”
Hours before heading from Berlin to an EU summit in Brussels where leaders will seek to start building a united response to the referendum, Merkel struck her toughest tone toward Britain yet. She reiterated that the U.K. can’t have informal talks on a new relationship with the EU before the government in London files its application to leave.
“There shouldn’t be the slightest misunderstanding about the conditions laid out in the European treaties for a case like this,” Merkel said. “My only advice to our British friends is don’t delude yourself about the necessary decisions that need to be taken.” Hooray for trying to keep the EU together through punitive measures to those who want to leave instead of by being something they actually want to be part of! Doesn't it kind of make sense though given the circumstances? It is a bigger economy leaving, many leaders of that movement have been rather disrespectful towards the institution if not directly to members as Farage did in the video on the other page and have been touting their ability to keep one of the main advantages of the EU access to the common market. It's the expected response, and it's very consistent with how I would expect a German leadership to act with respect to this issue. The problem is, it's the wrong long-term response to this issue. It won't stop Eurosceptics - people might be afraid to take the plunge and exit, but if and when the EU has a moment of weakness, it might lead to a mass exit of dissatisfied countries. The threat of force only works while it can be enforced. If it looks like a country is only staying in the EU because it fears retribution, not because it's actually good for the long-term future of the country, then that's a really unstable situation that won't help in the long term. Basically: good for right now, not so good for 20 years in the future.
what is the alternative though? We don't know what it's going to be in detail but you can't let them have all the advantages they had while still in the EU after leaving. Basicly the Boris talk about how they're going to keep staying in the single market for free and generally everything is going to stay like it was while not having to contribute their part of the EU budget anymore (I'd ASSUME that's his point because what else would be the point of leaving?). You can't really do that or what's the point of it to begin with.
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On June 29 2016 01:44 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 01:11 ThomasjServo wrote:On June 29 2016 00:59 LegalLord wrote:On June 28 2016 19:00 RvB wrote:German Chancellor Angela Merkel warned the U.K. to avoid illusions about future relations with the European Union, saying it won’t get favored treatment once it leaves the bloc.
“We will ensure the cherry-picking principle won’t apply in the negotiations,” Merkel said to applause in a speech to Germany’s lower house of parliament Tuesday. “There must be -- and there will be -- a palpable difference between a country that wants to be part of the European Union and one that doesn’t.”
Hours before heading from Berlin to an EU summit in Brussels where leaders will seek to start building a united response to the referendum, Merkel struck her toughest tone toward Britain yet. She reiterated that the U.K. can’t have informal talks on a new relationship with the EU before the government in London files its application to leave.
“There shouldn’t be the slightest misunderstanding about the conditions laid out in the European treaties for a case like this,” Merkel said. “My only advice to our British friends is don’t delude yourself about the necessary decisions that need to be taken.” Hooray for trying to keep the EU together through punitive measures to those who want to leave instead of by being something they actually want to be part of! Doesn't it kind of make sense though given the circumstances? It is a bigger economy leaving, many leaders of that movement have been rather disrespectful towards the institution if not directly to members as Farage did in the video on the other page and have been touting their ability to keep one of the main advantages of the EU access to the common market. It's the expected response, and it's very consistent with how I would expect a German leadership to act with respect to this issue. The problem is, it's the wrong long-term response to this issue. It won't stop Eurosceptics - people might be afraid to take the plunge and exit, but if and when the EU has a moment of weakness, it might lead to a mass exit of dissatisfied countries. The threat of force only works while it can be enforced. If it looks like a country is only staying in the EU because it fears retribution, not because it's actually good for the long-term future of the country, then that's a really unstable situation that won't help in the long term. Basically: good for right now, not so good for 20 years in the future.
Those aren't punative measures. They're conditions a country has to satisfy to access the single market. It's literally the same as every other country with access to the single market. Why should Britain get an exception? It has been known these would be the conditions for months and they voted to leave anyway.
Merkel has been as easy on them as she can be, saying that Britain can take its time to invoke article 50. What more do you actually expect?
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I know sovereignty is an outdated term but I think desire for independence was the main reason why Brexiters wanted to leave. They understand leaving will be costly but they believe it's better to be slightly poorer as long as you get to decide for yourself.
I wouldn't take any recent declarations seriously because the negotiations haven't even started yet. I think both sides are just panicking and saying random stuff to make it look like they're in control of the situation.
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I’m not really sure that is what is happening. From the outside, it seems like the Leave group is a dog that caught the car and is now confused as to what is next. While the EU is trying to temper expectations and push the UK to move the process forward on their own, rather than introduce harsh measures to get that done.
I could be wrong, but the Leave folks seem to have sold the just over half of public on something without explaining to them exactly what they would be giving up.
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I don't think the entirety of Bitish sovereignity was out of their hands. They just had to answer, for some things, to an organisation on an even higher level.
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United States42930 Posts
On June 29 2016 04:10 Uldridge wrote:
I don't think the entirety of Bitish sovereignity was out of their hands. They just had to answer, for some things, to an organisation on an even higher level.
We still had sovereignty, the fact that we could have this vote was proof of that. Furthermore it is constitutionally impossible for any British government to give up sovereignty because no power has that ability, sovereignty is forever tied to the person of the monarch and the elected officials who exercise it on her behalf. The EU rules were a series of rules which the British decided to abide by willingly, while they were not always welcome they were not imposed.
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It's like saying a prisoner is still free because he entered the prison willingly (I'm not saying the EU is a prison, it's just a metaphor). The UK can be sovereign both in and outside the EU but I think it's obvious that it will be "more sovereign" outside.
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Well, the government of the UK is more sovereign outside, since it has more of the % of the sovereign powers. The people of the UK had full sovereignty in either case; as both the UK parliament and the EU government are elected through democratic processes.
but that's a rather mild quibble over language and of no great import.
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That's about as sovereign as the sovereign decision to burn your house down. It makes no sense to decouple the issue of 'sovereignty' from good policy making. Just implementing ridiculous policies because you can isn't a meaningful form of freedom.
There's absolutely no thing in political or cultural life that a British person could not take part in while being in the EU that they can now. Well maybe if your favourite hobby is using energy wasting light bulbs or something, but apart from that the EU wasn't interfering in the personal live of British citizens.
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Whatever it is, and whatever the reasons are, it has surely become a clusterfuck of epic proportions. I'm eagerly awaiting how it'll be solved/handled.
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United States42930 Posts
On June 29 2016 04:24 Sent. wrote:
It's like saying a prisoner is still free because he entered the prison willingly (I'm not saying the EU is a prison, it's just a metaphor). The UK can be sovereign both in and outside the EU but I think it's obvious that it will be "more sovereign" outside.
If you enter a prison willingly, conform to the prison rules willingly and can leave whenever you like and stop following the rules whenever you like, you're not a prisoner.
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As a swiss i can really relate to gb, sadly... gping alone is just nobreal option anymore. Either you tie yourself to the EU, with sll costs snd benefits, or you decend into smallstateishness - which is fine for switzerland, norway and others, but i doubt gb wants to be a minor player.
I fully understand why gb voted that way and still, it was fucking dumb.
Edit: sry, was typing on phone and i suck at it
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On June 29 2016 01:21 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 01:17 KwarK wrote:On June 29 2016 01:16 Mohdoo wrote:
Am I the only one who still isn't convinced the split will even happen? Merkel forcing the UK to finalize their plans to leave prior to negotiating forces the UK to actually have some sort of "better idea" than staying. Merkel, and the world, knows that UK has no better option than staying, so she is forcing the UK's to face reality. Otherwise, the UK is able to hold Europe economically hostage every time it gets pissy about immigrants. No, it can't work like that. Boris seems to think that the split will involve staying in the single market and keeping the free movement of people from the EU which is a good 95% of what the EU is. Free movement and economically shackled to Europe - so what's the point?
Not economically shackled to Europe, such a situation would mean the UK was no longer prevented from arranging trade deals with other countries.
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On June 29 2016 05:05 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 01:21 Mohdoo wrote:On June 29 2016 01:17 KwarK wrote:On June 29 2016 01:16 Mohdoo wrote:
Am I the only one who still isn't convinced the split will even happen? Merkel forcing the UK to finalize their plans to leave prior to negotiating forces the UK to actually have some sort of "better idea" than staying. Merkel, and the world, knows that UK has no better option than staying, so she is forcing the UK's to face reality. Otherwise, the UK is able to hold Europe economically hostage every time it gets pissy about immigrants. No, it can't work like that. Boris seems to think that the split will involve staying in the single market and keeping the free movement of people from the EU which is a good 95% of what the EU is. Free movement and economically shackled to Europe - so what's the point? Not economically shackled to Europe, such a situation would mean the UK was no longer prevented from arranging trade deals with other countries.
In which the UK will be competing with the entire EU for beneficial terms, while have less to bring to the table.
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On June 29 2016 05:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 05:05 jello_biafra wrote:On June 29 2016 01:21 Mohdoo wrote:On June 29 2016 01:17 KwarK wrote:On June 29 2016 01:16 Mohdoo wrote:
Am I the only one who still isn't convinced the split will even happen? Merkel forcing the UK to finalize their plans to leave prior to negotiating forces the UK to actually have some sort of "better idea" than staying. Merkel, and the world, knows that UK has no better option than staying, so she is forcing the UK's to face reality. Otherwise, the UK is able to hold Europe economically hostage every time it gets pissy about immigrants. No, it can't work like that. Boris seems to think that the split will involve staying in the single market and keeping the free movement of people from the EU which is a good 95% of what the EU is. Free movement and economically shackled to Europe - so what's the point? Not economically shackled to Europe, such a situation would mean the UK was no longer prevented from arranging trade deals with other countries. In which the UK will be competing with the entire EU for beneficial terms, while have less to bring to the table.
The problem is it takes the EU a decade to come to terms because each member state can veto it
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On June 29 2016 05:11 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 05:08 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2016 05:05 jello_biafra wrote:On June 29 2016 01:21 Mohdoo wrote:On June 29 2016 01:17 KwarK wrote:On June 29 2016 01:16 Mohdoo wrote:
Am I the only one who still isn't convinced the split will even happen? Merkel forcing the UK to finalize their plans to leave prior to negotiating forces the UK to actually have some sort of "better idea" than staying. Merkel, and the world, knows that UK has no better option than staying, so she is forcing the UK's to face reality. Otherwise, the UK is able to hold Europe economically hostage every time it gets pissy about immigrants. No, it can't work like that. Boris seems to think that the split will involve staying in the single market and keeping the free movement of people from the EU which is a good 95% of what the EU is. Free movement and economically shackled to Europe - so what's the point? Not economically shackled to Europe, such a situation would mean the UK was no longer prevented from arranging trade deals with other countries. In which the UK will be competing with the entire EU for beneficial terms, while have less to bring to the table. The problem is it takes the EU a decade to come to terms because each member state can veto it
Sounds like the US and how long it takes us to put together trade deals. We make it work.
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On June 29 2016 05:11 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 05:08 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2016 05:05 jello_biafra wrote:On June 29 2016 01:21 Mohdoo wrote:On June 29 2016 01:17 KwarK wrote:On June 29 2016 01:16 Mohdoo wrote:
Am I the only one who still isn't convinced the split will even happen? Merkel forcing the UK to finalize their plans to leave prior to negotiating forces the UK to actually have some sort of "better idea" than staying. Merkel, and the world, knows that UK has no better option than staying, so she is forcing the UK's to face reality. Otherwise, the UK is able to hold Europe economically hostage every time it gets pissy about immigrants. No, it can't work like that. Boris seems to think that the split will involve staying in the single market and keeping the free movement of people from the EU which is a good 95% of what the EU is. Free movement and economically shackled to Europe - so what's the point? Not economically shackled to Europe, such a situation would mean the UK was no longer prevented from arranging trade deals with other countries. In which the UK will be competing with the entire EU for beneficial terms, while have less to bring to the table. The problem is it takes the EU a decade to come to terms because each member state can veto it
EU has a history of consistently closing trade deals 40% quicker than others.
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Is the UK free while it is in the EU? No. It has to follow rules set by the EU.
Will the UK be free after leaving the EU? Still no. It has to follow the same rules.
Those rules do not apply because the EU likes to enforce rules upon britain. The rules apply because the EU wants to have them. Anybody who wants to trade with the EU has to follow the same rules. Not trading the EU would kill the UK. There is no way to leave these rules behind and stay at their level of wealth.
Its like deciding to be free from gravity or other laws of physics. Even if you dont like them you can not just decide to leave and expect it to actually work.
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On June 29 2016 05:55 RoomOfMush wrote:
Is the UK free while it is in the EU? No. It has to follow rules set by the EU.
Will the UK be free after leaving the EU? Still no. It has to follow the same rules.
Those rules do not apply because the EU likes to enforce rules upon britain. The rules apply because the EU wants to have them. Anybody who wants to trade with the EU has to follow the same rules. Not trading the EU would kill the UK. There is no way to leave these rules behind and stay at their level of wealth.
Its like deciding to be free from gravity or other laws of physics. Even if you dont like them you can not just decide to leave and expect it to actually work.
Except only 8% of business trade with the EU but at the moment 100% have to abide by EU rules, by leaving you free 92% of business from EU rules.
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On June 29 2016 05:56 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 05:55 RoomOfMush wrote:
Is the UK free while it is in the EU? No. It has to follow rules set by the EU.
Will the UK be free after leaving the EU? Still no. It has to follow the same rules.
Those rules do not apply because the EU likes to enforce rules upon britain. The rules apply because the EU wants to have them. Anybody who wants to trade with the EU has to follow the same rules. Not trading the EU would kill the UK. There is no way to leave these rules behind and stay at their level of wealth.
Its like deciding to be free from gravity or other laws of physics. Even if you dont like them you can not just decide to leave and expect it to actually work. Except only 8% of business trade with the EU but at the moment 100% have to abide by EU rules, by leaving you free 92% of business from EU rules.
8% of business in the world? Like the whole thing?
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EPT
