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On June 29 2016 00:40 Jockmcplop wrote: If Watson stands he might just win it. I will always support Corbyn and his ideals but obviously he has to go or there won't be a Labour party to lead. I'm disgusted by the coup and especially the timing of it, but as long as we don't end up with some empty, vacuous Blairite who doesn't represent Labour voters it should work out for the best.
The whole reason for the coup, and all the complaining previously, is because Corbyn isn't an empty, vacuous Blairite. There seems to be a massive rift in what the Labour party members and the labour MPs want from the party.
This isn't necessarily true. Its the reason the coup started, but alot of the people who have resigned have been on the soft left. Little known figures such as my local MP Kate Green, who is a leftist, who won her first shadow cabinet job under Corbyn, resigned simply because there is no longer a party to lead. 81% of MPs have voted no confidence in Corbyn. Its horribly unjust, undemocratic, and I would say short sighted, but Corbyn has to resign simply because of the weight of the shit that's been thrown at him. Corbyn still has the support of the membership, probably, but won't be able to do anything at all as the leader of Labour, so by hanging on now he's doing much more harm than good. Its probably a matter of principle for him, and that principle is right, but its not the most pressing concern when there's a possible GE round the corner and a massive amount of work to be done on the EU. He can't do that work with no MPs.
Corbyn's statement in the face of the no confidence vote:
In the aftermath of last week’s referendum, our country faces major challenges. Risks to the economy and living standards are growing. The public is divided.
The government is in disarray. Ministers have made it clear they have no exit plan, but are determined to make working people pay with a new round of cuts and tax rises.
Labour has the responsibility to give a lead where the government will not. We need to bring people together, hold the government to account, oppose austerity and set out a path to exit that will protect jobs and incomes.
To do that we need to stand together. Since I was elected leader of our party nine months ago, we have repeatedly defeated the government over its attacks on living standards.
Last month, Labour become the largest party in the local elections. In Thursday’s referendum, a narrow majority voted to leave, but two thirds of Labour supporters backed our call for a remain vote.
I was democratically elected leader of our party for a new kind of politics by 60% of Labour members and supporters, and I will not betray them by resigning. Today’s vote by MPs has no constitutional legitimacy.
We are a democratic party, with a clear constitution. Our people need Labour party members, trade unionists and MPs to unite behind my leadership at a critical time for our country.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel warned the U.K. to avoid illusions about future relations with the European Union, saying it won’t get favored treatment once it leaves the bloc.
“We will ensure the cherry-picking principle won’t apply in the negotiations,” Merkel said to applause in a speech to Germany’s lower house of parliament Tuesday. “There must be -- and there will be -- a palpable difference between a country that wants to be part of the European Union and one that doesn’t.”
Hours before heading from Berlin to an EU summit in Brussels where leaders will seek to start building a united response to the referendum, Merkel struck her toughest tone toward Britain yet. She reiterated that the U.K. can’t have informal talks on a new relationship with the EU before the government in London files its application to leave.
“There shouldn’t be the slightest misunderstanding about the conditions laid out in the European treaties for a case like this,” Merkel said. “My only advice to our British friends is don’t delude yourself about the necessary decisions that need to be taken.”
Hooray for trying to keep the EU together through punitive measures to those who want to leave instead of by being something they actually want to be part of!
German Chancellor Angela Merkel warned the U.K. to avoid illusions about future relations with the European Union, saying it won’t get favored treatment once it leaves the bloc.
“We will ensure the cherry-picking principle won’t apply in the negotiations,” Merkel said to applause in a speech to Germany’s lower house of parliament Tuesday. “There must be -- and there will be -- a palpable difference between a country that wants to be part of the European Union and one that doesn’t.”
Hours before heading from Berlin to an EU summit in Brussels where leaders will seek to start building a united response to the referendum, Merkel struck her toughest tone toward Britain yet. She reiterated that the U.K. can’t have informal talks on a new relationship with the EU before the government in London files its application to leave.
“There shouldn’t be the slightest misunderstanding about the conditions laid out in the European treaties for a case like this,” Merkel said. “My only advice to our British friends is don’t delude yourself about the necessary decisions that need to be taken.”
Hooray for trying to keep the EU together through punitive measures to those who want to leave instead of by being something they actually want to be part of!
Doesn't it kind of make sense though given the circumstances?
It is a bigger economy leaving, many leaders of that movement have been rather disrespectful towards the institution if not directly to members as Farage did in the video on the other page and have been touting their ability to keep one of the main advantages of the EU access to the common market.
Seems like Farage and Co. are burning bridges with that video and not inspiring will to work with the EU but rather inspiring the will to ensure the door doesn't hit them on the ass on the way out.
Am I the only one who still isn't convinced the split will even happen? Merkel forcing the UK to finalize their plans to leave prior to negotiating forces the UK to actually have some sort of "better idea" than staying. Merkel, and the world, knows that UK has no better option than staying, so she is forcing the UK's to face reality. Otherwise, the UK is able to hold Europe economically hostage every time it gets pissy about immigrants. No, it can't work like that.
On June 29 2016 01:16 Mohdoo wrote: Am I the only one who still isn't convinced the split will even happen? Merkel forcing the UK to finalize their plans to leave prior to negotiating forces the UK to actually have some sort of "better idea" than staying. Merkel, and the world, knows that UK has no better option than staying, so she is forcing the UK's to face reality. Otherwise, the UK is able to hold Europe economically hostage every time it gets pissy about immigrants. No, it can't work like that.
Boris seems to think that the split will involve staying in the single market and keeping the free movement of people from the EU which is a good 95% of what the EU is.
On June 29 2016 00:40 Jockmcplop wrote: If Watson stands he might just win it. I will always support Corbyn and his ideals but obviously he has to go or there won't be a Labour party to lead. I'm disgusted by the coup and especially the timing of it, but as long as we don't end up with some empty, vacuous Blairite who doesn't represent Labour voters it should work out for the best.
The whole reason for the coup, and all the complaining previously, is because Corbyn isn't an empty, vacuous Blairite. There seems to be a massive rift in what the Labour party members and the labour MPs want from the party.
This isn't necessarily true. Its the reason the coup started, but alot of the people who have resigned have been on the soft left. Little known figures such as my local MP Kate Green, who is a leftist, who won her first shadow cabinet job under Corbyn, resigned simply because there is no longer a party to lead. 81% of MPs have voted no confidence in Corbyn. Its horribly unjust, undemocratic, and I would say short sighted, but Corbyn has to resign simply because of the weight of the shit that's been thrown at him. Corbyn still has the support of the membership, probably, but won't be able to do anything at all as the leader of Labour, so by hanging on now he's doing much more harm than good. Its probably a matter of principle for him, and that principle is right, but its not the most pressing concern when there's a possible GE round the corner and a massive amount of work to be done on the EU. He can't do that work with no MPs.
Yeah there's no way he can stay on as leader there isn't going to be any one left to lead soon. I just don't think there is much chance of there not being a Blairite leader because it will just lead to the same situation with Corbyn and the party doesn't want to go into a general election with a large chunk of its MPs in revolt.
On June 29 2016 01:16 Mohdoo wrote: Am I the only one who still isn't convinced the split will even happen? Merkel forcing the UK to finalize their plans to leave prior to negotiating forces the UK to actually have some sort of "better idea" than staying. Merkel, and the world, knows that UK has no better option than staying, so she is forcing the UK's to face reality. Otherwise, the UK is able to hold Europe economically hostage every time it gets pissy about immigrants. No, it can't work like that.
Boris seems to think that the split will involve staying in the single market and keeping the free movement of people from the EU which is a good 95% of what the EU is.
Free movement and economically shackled to Europe - so what's the point?
On June 29 2016 01:16 Mohdoo wrote: Am I the only one who still isn't convinced the split will even happen? Merkel forcing the UK to finalize their plans to leave prior to negotiating forces the UK to actually have some sort of "better idea" than staying. Merkel, and the world, knows that UK has no better option than staying, so she is forcing the UK's to face reality. Otherwise, the UK is able to hold Europe economically hostage every time it gets pissy about immigrants. No, it can't work like that.
Boris seems to think that the split will involve staying in the single market and keeping the free movement of people from the EU which is a good 95% of what the EU is.
Free movement and economically shackled to Europe - so what's the point?
I don't think any one has actually figured that part out yet.
On June 29 2016 01:16 Mohdoo wrote: Am I the only one who still isn't convinced the split will even happen? Merkel forcing the UK to finalize their plans to leave prior to negotiating forces the UK to actually have some sort of "better idea" than staying. Merkel, and the world, knows that UK has no better option than staying, so she is forcing the UK's to face reality. Otherwise, the UK is able to hold Europe economically hostage every time it gets pissy about immigrants. No, it can't work like that.
Boris seems to think that the split will involve staying in the single market and keeping the free movement of people from the EU which is a good 95% of what the EU is.
Free movement and economically shackled to Europe - so what's the point?
Get elected and get power based on populist demands that likely won’t work?
Thats seems to be Nigels Farage's plan. His speech in the European parliament was directed at UK voters to gain power, but by doing so, he didn't care about the consequences of his actions to the UK (or what would be left of it).
On June 29 2016 01:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Thats seems to be Nigels Farage's plan. His speech in the European parliament was directed at UK voters to gain power, but by doing so, he didn't care about the consequences of his actions to the UK (or what would be left of it).
Glad to hear things are pretty similar on your end of the pond.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel warned the U.K. to avoid illusions about future relations with the European Union, saying it won’t get favored treatment once it leaves the bloc.
“We will ensure the cherry-picking principle won’t apply in the negotiations,” Merkel said to applause in a speech to Germany’s lower house of parliament Tuesday. “There must be -- and there will be -- a palpable difference between a country that wants to be part of the European Union and one that doesn’t.”
Hours before heading from Berlin to an EU summit in Brussels where leaders will seek to start building a united response to the referendum, Merkel struck her toughest tone toward Britain yet. She reiterated that the U.K. can’t have informal talks on a new relationship with the EU before the government in London files its application to leave.
“There shouldn’t be the slightest misunderstanding about the conditions laid out in the European treaties for a case like this,” Merkel said. “My only advice to our British friends is don’t delude yourself about the necessary decisions that need to be taken.”
Hooray for trying to keep the EU together through punitive measures to those who want to leave instead of by being something they actually want to be part of!
Doesn't it kind of make sense though given the circumstances?
It is a bigger economy leaving, many leaders of that movement have been rather disrespectful towards the institution if not directly to members as Farage did in the video on the other page and have been touting their ability to keep one of the main advantages of the EU access to the common market.
It's the expected response, and it's very consistent with how I would expect a German leadership to act with respect to this issue. The problem is, it's the wrong long-term response to this issue. It won't stop Eurosceptics - people might be afraid to take the plunge and exit, but if and when the EU has a moment of weakness, it might lead to a mass exit of dissatisfied countries. The threat of force only works while it can be enforced. If it looks like a country is only staying in the EU because it fears retribution, not because it's actually good for the long-term future of the country, then that's a really unstable situation that won't help in the long term.
Basically: good for right now, not so good for 20 years in the future.
I've checked out a bit of that comment section of that video of Farage's speech.. what a mess that was. I still don't get it. How is EU such a monster, such a NWO (...sigh...), when all they do is pass laws for food regulations etc. I don't think alot will change for UK's economy anyway since the economy is globalised anyway. Long term brexit might be good for the UK since it could potentially reclaim some of its "lost" sovereignity (lol) Short term, with shadow cabinet disbanding, and higher taxes (I've seen this written somewhere, could someone confirm this?), it fucks over the working class, which is exactly the class I presume ovewhelmingly voted for a brexit. It's ironic because it's the working class that wants short term solutions the most I think.
My question is this: in what way has the EU changed the way it fundamentally works from the day the UK joined to now and what are legitimate reasons for leaving (other than fishing borders and being "tied up" to a meta-governing body)?
On June 29 2016 02:01 Uldridge wrote: I've checked out a bit of that comment section of that video of Farage's speech.. what a mess that was. I still don't get it. How is EU such a monster, such a NWO (...sigh...), when all they do is pass laws for food regulations etc. I don't think alot will change for UK's economy anyway since the economy is globalised anyway. Long term brexit might be good for the UK since it could potentially reclaim some of its "lost" sovereignity (lol) Short term, with shadow cabinet disbanding, and higher taxes (I've seen this written somewhere, could someone confirm this?), it fucks over the working class, which is exactly the class I presume ovewhelmingly voted for a brexit. It's ironic because it's the working class that wants short term solutions the most I think.
My question is this: in what way has the EU changed the way it fundamentally works from the day the UK joined to now and what are legitimate reasons for leaving (other than fishing borders and being "tied up" to a meta-governing body)?
I'm not that familiar with it ofc, being in the US. it's not uncommon for people to vote based on poor understandings of issues.
I could make up a few legitimate-sounding reasons for leaving: 1) the EU has dysfunctionality issues; too many nations having a veto tends to make a government not work well; the quality of eu commissioners is subpar for an organization that can draw on the talent of so many, since only pepole who couldn't get good posts in their own country are sent there. Probably some other structural design flaws in it. So it might be destined to fail, much like the US's Articles of Confederation 2) failure to follow rule of law. The refugee issue would've been much better if they'd simply followed the preexisting Dublin regulation; rather than pushing for all the weirdness they did instead. the EU fails to follow its own rules on important issues. I'm sure you could find some more instances of eu system not following its own established rules. 3) it's too big! Whether it qualifies as an optimum currency area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimum_currency_area is debated, but it may well not be; especially since its expansion to include so many more countries with much more disparate levels of income (and other characteristics). So it's simply not the most effective size of an administrative unit due to the circumstances within it varying too widely.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel warned the U.K. to avoid illusions about future relations with the European Union, saying it won’t get favored treatment once it leaves the bloc.
“We will ensure the cherry-picking principle won’t apply in the negotiations,” Merkel said to applause in a speech to Germany’s lower house of parliament Tuesday. “There must be -- and there will be -- a palpable difference between a country that wants to be part of the European Union and one that doesn’t.”
Hours before heading from Berlin to an EU summit in Brussels where leaders will seek to start building a united response to the referendum, Merkel struck her toughest tone toward Britain yet. She reiterated that the U.K. can’t have informal talks on a new relationship with the EU before the government in London files its application to leave.
“There shouldn’t be the slightest misunderstanding about the conditions laid out in the European treaties for a case like this,” Merkel said. “My only advice to our British friends is don’t delude yourself about the necessary decisions that need to be taken.”
Hooray for trying to keep the EU together through punitive measures to those who want to leave instead of by being something they actually want to be part of!
Doesn't it kind of make sense though given the circumstances?
It is a bigger economy leaving, many leaders of that movement have been rather disrespectful towards the institution if not directly to members as Farage did in the video on the other page and have been touting their ability to keep one of the main advantages of the EU access to the common market.
It's the expected response, and it's very consistent with how I would expect a German leadership to act with respect to this issue. The problem is, it's the wrong long-term response to this issue. It won't stop Eurosceptics - people might be afraid to take the plunge and exit, but if and when the EU has a moment of weakness, it might lead to a mass exit of dissatisfied countries. The threat of force only works while it can be enforced. If it looks like a country is only staying in the EU because it fears retribution, not because it's actually good for the long-term future of the country, then that's a really unstable situation that won't help in the long term.
Basically: good for right now, not so good for 20 years in the future.
No one at the table is being especially adult about it, I can see what you mean. What I wonder about the punitive measures is what this would look like if a smaller member opted to withdraw rather than one of the largest contributors in the future.
People made a large fuss about the possibility of Greece dropping out of the EU not so long ago, but relatively speaking that is a small withdrawal. Say though Estonia says, we've had a good run, and we'd like to go it alone without the indignant chiding fro UKIP, how does the EU respond?
It is pure theory, but I imagine it would be a better break up and you wouldn't have Farage arguing about who gets to keep the Sade cds.
1) Sure, the EU is dysfunctional. No one ever denied that, however. There's always been backlash and problems. The earliest I've remembered was the treaty of Lisbon (since I haven't been interested, and still try to actively stay away from it tbh), which had different countries not agreeing with the direction the EU was going. However, dysfunctional doesn't mean you have to end it if it doesn't go the way you want it. You could try to fix it internally first, before you finally want to cut all ties.
2) I think in crises things never go as planned and rules become very hard to follow. Countries started to act in their own self interest (which I don't blame them), tension rose between nations and it put a strain on the entirety of the EU. I would like to hear a different strategy to solve the influx of millions of refugees and immigrants though. It's not that straightforward.
3) So what's the alternative? Everyone have their own currency? I don't know enough about economics to have a strong opinion on pro/con, nor can I make any arguments for any, but I'm a unionist, I'm also an idealist and would like to see a unified world at some point in time, one where people are rational and religious extremism has died off. I don't see that happening without at least one (symbolic) union succeeding, unifying so many different cultures. Right now, the world is showing we're either not ready, or we will never be able to do it. And it's making me kind of sad. I feel like it's competition, but for the wrong reasons. Competition for nationalistic, xenophobic, reasons.
uldridge -> I was only making up some arguments because you asked for them; I favor the remain side personally. I'm not really interested in arguing the details on them.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel warned the U.K. to avoid illusions about future relations with the European Union, saying it won’t get favored treatment once it leaves the bloc.
“We will ensure the cherry-picking principle won’t apply in the negotiations,” Merkel said to applause in a speech to Germany’s lower house of parliament Tuesday. “There must be -- and there will be -- a palpable difference between a country that wants to be part of the European Union and one that doesn’t.”
Hours before heading from Berlin to an EU summit in Brussels where leaders will seek to start building a united response to the referendum, Merkel struck her toughest tone toward Britain yet. She reiterated that the U.K. can’t have informal talks on a new relationship with the EU before the government in London files its application to leave.
“There shouldn’t be the slightest misunderstanding about the conditions laid out in the European treaties for a case like this,” Merkel said. “My only advice to our British friends is don’t delude yourself about the necessary decisions that need to be taken.”
Hooray for trying to keep the EU together through punitive measures to those who want to leave instead of by being something they actually want to be part of!
Doesn't it kind of make sense though given the circumstances?
It is a bigger economy leaving, many leaders of that movement have been rather disrespectful towards the institution if not directly to members as Farage did in the video on the other page and have been touting their ability to keep one of the main advantages of the EU access to the common market.
It's the expected response, and it's very consistent with how I would expect a German leadership to act with respect to this issue. The problem is, it's the wrong long-term response to this issue. It won't stop Eurosceptics - people might be afraid to take the plunge and exit, but if and when the EU has a moment of weakness, it might lead to a mass exit of dissatisfied countries. The threat of force only works while it can be enforced. If it looks like a country is only staying in the EU because it fears retribution, not because it's actually good for the long-term future of the country, then that's a really unstable situation that won't help in the long term.
Basically: good for right now, not so good for 20 years in the future.
No one at the table is being especially adult about it, I can see what you mean. What I wonder about the punitive measures is what this would look like if a smaller member opted to withdraw rather than one of the largest contributors in the future.
People made a large fuss about the possibility of Greece dropping out of the EU not so long ago, but relatively speaking that is a small withdrawal. Say though Estonia says, we've had a good run, and we'd like to go it alone without the indignant chiding fro UKIP, how does the EU respond?
It is pure theory, but I imagine it would be a better break up and you wouldn't have Farage arguing about who gets to keep the Sade cds.
There is no politically simple answer to the breakup of the union and if the experts can't come to a good conclusion as to what would be the best answer, I probably can't either. In the long run, I'd say the peaceful breakup would probably be the best way forward, since punitive measures are going to end badly. Germany got one hell of a backlash for being too tough on Greece, and helped the Eurosceptics in the process. Being punitive on an economy that is much larger will be even worse because it's going to hurt the EU as well. Ideally the union would have been something that people choose to stay in because it actually helps, not because it's keeping them together by force. Short of that, they should stop trying to punish the UK and find a way to make the Brexit and/or renegotiated membership status work.
On June 29 2016 02:42 Uldridge wrote: I'm also an idealist and would like to see a unified world at some point in time, one where people are rational and religious extremism has died off.
This isn't done through cultural and economic hegemony and silencing legitimate concerns under the guise of anti-racism. As the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with the best intentions.
On June 29 2016 02:01 Uldridge wrote: I've checked out a bit of that comment section of that video of Farage's speech.. what a mess that was. I still don't get it. How is EU such a monster, such a NWO (...sigh...), when all they do is pass laws for food regulations etc. I don't think alot will change for UK's economy anyway since the economy is globalised anyway. Long term brexit might be good for the UK since it could potentially reclaim some of its "lost" sovereignity (lol) Short term, with shadow cabinet disbanding, and higher taxes (I've seen this written somewhere, could someone confirm this?), it fucks over the working class, which is exactly the class I presume ovewhelmingly voted for a brexit. It's ironic because it's the working class that wants short term solutions the most I think.
My question is this: in what way has the EU changed the way it fundamentally works from the day the UK joined to now and what are legitimate reasons for leaving (other than fishing borders and being "tied up" to a meta-governing body)?
Its not a monster.
What we have is a country that still thinks its a world power, from an age when the sun never set on the British empire.
People here actually think that the UK dictates to the the world,well they are in for one hell of a fright because we have just left one of the biggest economic cartels in the world thinking we dictate the terms. The dumb fuckers in this county actually believe the crap being feed to them by the press such as the Sun and Daily Mail
Europe is gonna fuck us senseless, and as far as i concerned we deserve it
EPT
