EPTYes PRISM could well be very illegal in the constitution, the UN is currently looking into what might be a series of broken laws regarding mass spying on European citizens.
Is Snowden guilty of espionage? - Page 9
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peacenl
550 Posts
Yes PRISM could well be very illegal in the constitution, the UN is currently looking into what might be a series of broken laws regarding mass spying on European citizens. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On June 26 2013 06:13 Shiori wrote: Most of those things don't really acquire information that one can reasonable expect to be private. Speed traps see nothing more than the speed of a vehicle in a public area. Looking at the highway permits any human being to estimate the speed of a vehicle, and one cannot reasonably expect the speed of one's vehicle while one is traveling in plain sight to be private. Surveillance cameras are tricky. I'd argue that they should be permitted if they do not infringe on privacy, by which I mean that you can install surveillance cameras on your own property, but shouldn't be able to set one up in my house that spies on me. What you can see from your lawn is, of course, fair game. Security checkpoints are perfectly legitimate because they are mandated by whoever owns the property on which the event is being held or by the organizers of an event. If I have a party at my house, it would absolutely be absurd to require that I allow a security guard to inspect all of my guests, because I can let whomever I want into my house on my own terms. The browsing habits and phone calls of individuals are not in the public space unless they occur in a publicly accessible area (e.g. if people overhear you talking on your cellphone in public, so be it) because you have no reason to suspect your neighbour of somehow tracking your browsing habits without engaging in some sort of trespassing. With phone calls, it's even easier to see that they're reasonably private. If I telephone someone from my own house, then it seems reasonable to suppose that I can expect that someone from China whom I've never met isn't going to be hearing me. If we imagine the internet as a public space, then browsing history is fair game, as are speed limits. The requests that are generated are available publicly via cookies and other tracking methods. Whether you explicitly consented to this or not, you are broadcasting your information to the public. Of course, you have to make visiting specific websites and looking at their content explicitly illegal for it to be comparable to speed limits, and that is not done (to any noticeable degree). If we don't, then we must at least admit to using an infrastructure that is owned and regulated by the companies we use to browse and the government. In that case, it is much like the stadium/event structure. The datacenters are owned and operated by cloud computing companies. Google, Yahoo, AOL, Apple, and so on already have access to that information and likely have a TOU agreement that makes managing that data (and access privileges) their responsibility. If they wish to allow government officials to have access to their servers, then it can be done. For phones, it falls under the same scenario as cloud computing. The phone company has the responsibility to make those connections, which is the only thing the NSA has access to through these specific programs. Nobody is listening in on phone calls, but they are seeing records of what phones are being connected, information which can be distributed at the discretion of the phone company/companies involved. I should add that at no point is the government reaching into your personal documents on your PC, phone, or device and retrieving data that you have not provided on the internet. These items are still protected under privacy rights. | ||
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alwaysfeeling
Netherlands55 Posts
"Truth is treason in an empire of lies." Ron Paul | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
On June 26 2013 07:12 alwaysfeeling wrote: Saying that Snowden is a traitor and committed espionage is simply doublespeak from those in government who do not want to see this type of information brought out to the American people. Absolutely nothing that he released jeopardized the security of Americans. The only thing that has been jeopardized was the validity of the US Govt. in the eyes of it's citizens. "Truth is treason in an empire of lies." Ron Paul https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3LWwyv2kJSs That link is so dead on its not even funny. | ||
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Kvz
United States463 Posts
What Snowden did, however, does not grant him any immunity under certain whistleblower laws that are in place. Also the amount of additional information that he has and we don't know about actually makes him a huge threat to American national security. So should he be extradited and charged? Within the parameters of American law - yes. He outed the NSA for doing something that was proportioned as legal by the FISA courts then fleed the country after the fact with additional classified NSA information/documents. I'm not gonna be siding with the gov't or Snowden, but he definitely should be brought back and given a fair trial. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32051 Posts
On June 26 2013 06:24 Whitewing wrote: Legally he's guilty. Morally, he did the right thing. spot on | ||
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omgimonfire15
United States233 Posts
So its okay that banks, hospitals, schools, internet companies, house contractors, etc know your private information and what you do but not the government? The government still technically keeps your privacy by not disclosing your personal information. When they start disclosing that, its a breach of privacy. Maybe i'm crazy buy i'm fine with the idea the government knows everything about me as long as they don't tell people. I mean, I don't think i'm doing anything wrong. What do you and I possibly have to hide that's so damaging? | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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MidKnight
Lithuania884 Posts
I do think that it's obviously not gonna be used to harass innocent average people and its main purpose *is* to monitor shady behaviour which isn't a bad thing. What this case does show, however, is that governments approach is fundamentally fucked up. This case is as clear cut as it can possibly get as far as the possibility of damage from this leak. Anyone with common sense will realize that it's simply laughable that they are trying to persecute him for "leaking information to enemies of US". It's legitimately like some kind of parody, there's no other word for it. They know it, everyone knows it, but they are trying to sell it with a straight face and will succeed because law is on their side.. It's obviously all about propaganda and fear-mongering. It's basically just trying to set another example of "what happens if you fuck with us, we'll destroy your life. Just sit in your place". People shouldn't put up with this. This whole situation reminded me of this George Carlin clip. "And nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care. That's what the owners count on". That's exactly what Snowden said in his interview. His biggest fear was that people will rally for a while and then just say "meh" while he will rot in prison for the rest of his life, having given away a comfortable life with a huge paycheck as well as his family. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On June 26 2013 07:25 darkness wrote: Snowden's case shows democracy is complete bullshit at this century, but dictatorship is even worse... maybe someone should come up with a new political system? http://xkcd.com/927/ The problem is not the system, the problem is what happens to people within a system. The problem is that no system is adaptive enough to keep up with a change in preference. Democracy will be loved, until its not. | ||
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Serpico
4285 Posts
On June 26 2013 07:24 omgimonfire15 wrote: So its okay that banks, hospitals, schools, internet companies, house contractors, etc know your private information and what you do but not the government? The government still technically keeps your privacy by not disclosing your personal information. When they start disclosing that, its a breach of privacy. Maybe i'm crazy buy i'm fine with the idea the government knows everything about me as long as they don't tell people. I mean, I don't think i'm doing anything wrong. What do you and I possibly have to hide that's so damaging? There's that wacky logic again. | ||
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derpface
Sweden925 Posts
So laughable I wanna cry. But what can you say other than 'MURICA  | ||
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Nimelrian
Germany142 Posts
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alwaysfeeling
Netherlands55 Posts
On June 26 2013 07:37 Nimelrian wrote: Who has nothing to hide has nothing to be afraid of... This logic can't be for real, right? So sad that some people actually think like this. | ||
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shell
Portugal2722 Posts
he sacrificed his life and reputation for the greater good of americans.. This info can be used to many wrong reasons and i'm sure it has happened before.. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On June 26 2013 07:12 alwaysfeeling wrote: Saying that Snowden is a traitor and committed espionage is simply doublespeak from those in government who do not want to see this type of information brought out to the American people. Absolutely nothing that he released jeopardized the security of Americans. The only thing that has been jeopardized was the validity of the US Govt. in the eyes of it's citizens. "Truth is treason in an empire of lies." Ron Paul https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3LWwyv2kJSs The thing is though, the focus is always put on the American people in this matter, as you wrote in your post. However, the reason he isn't in jail or even executed is because of the NON american people. The information he leaked might make americans feel uncomfortable (wtf our government is spying on us!?) but if you see it from our perspective, it's almost worse, which is why foreign powers are quite willing to protect Snowden. You want to search online? You use google.com. You want to use a social network? facebook.com. Turns out, using those sites is giving the US vital information about us. The US government is probably worried about their own hide when this comes out, but think about google and facebook? It must suck for them when a huge part of their market segment (every single foreigner) wants to stop using them because in a sense, simply writing what you're doing privately on facebook is feeding a foreign government information? Not like Sweden would care, we bow down to the US in everything which is why we still do not have nuclear bombs even though we were one of the vanguards in the research, but it's important to emphasize how this is a global issue, it's far more than a domestic US issue. | ||
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
On June 26 2013 06:23 eNbee wrote: Hong Kong(China) does not have an extradition treaty with the USA. At least if my source is correct. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/United_States_extradition_treaties_countries.PNG It's not. There is an extradition treaty in place and while I cba to read it, the way news organisations presented it Hong Kong had no viable exception to accommodate Snowden even if they wanted to, which makes extradition largely procedural. http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/71600.pdf | ||
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RHGaming
United States83 Posts
On June 26 2013 02:52 Panda86 wrote: Under US law he is most certainly guilty of espionage. However I see him as a hero. He is jsut one of many whistleblowers nowadays bringing to light the criminality of the US government Too bad people are so focused on the US government alone. You will find that every single government that is and ever was had its issues with corruption. People tend to love to hate the ones on top though. | ||
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hootsushi
Germany3468 Posts
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On June 26 2013 07:28 Thieving Magpie wrote: http://xkcd.com/927/ The problem is not the system, the problem is what happens to people within a system. The problem is that no system is adaptive enough to keep up with a change in preference. Democracy will be loved, until its not. I think adapting has nothing to do with freedom which is often synonym of democracy. Thus said, it's hilarious how USA and UK pretend to be anti-communist, while playing the Big Brother role at the same time. Example of USA (Snowden's case) and of UK (CCTV everywhere). | ||
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