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Please attempt to distinguish between extremists and non extremists to avoid starting the inevitable waste of time that is "can Islam be judged by its believers?" - KwarK |
Btw, we in the Netherland also had a beheading a few years back of critical thinker Theo van Gogh. He was too critical of Islam (not according to me but according to Muslims and the Left).
What does annoy me is that if FEEL (yes I don't KNOW it) that lot's of muslims celebrate when they hear of this. Much like people who cried tears of joy upon hearing about 3000 Westerners dead after 9/11. Shit like that pisses me off beyond belief... Really frustrating. I don't want to hate anyone and I especially don't want any groups hating anyone who lives in The Great West just because they are not muslims.
Sometimes I just hate the world in general. so much contempt and hatred. So much injustice.
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On May 23 2013 22:30 redviper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 22:11 Kontys wrote:On May 23 2013 21:39 redviper wrote:On May 23 2013 20:38 thezanursic wrote:On May 23 2013 03:28 Asshat wrote:
Seems like every criminal act performed by a muslim is called an act of terror these days. From massive attacks with explosives, killing sprees, to isolated assaults/murders performed by random lunatics such as this case. No holds barred. I don't live in the UK, but I'm pretty sure cutting somebody's head of in public, outside of a military base and putting it on display while screaming Alah Akbar is an act of terror. Not somebody's head. A soldiers head. How in the world can an attack on a militant be considered terror. Does that mean every act of war is an act of terrorism? After all wars are religiously and politically motivated, involve killing soldiers and definitely involve putting on a display. I find it odd to see the British being so shocked about this but still continue to protect Altaf Hussain, a real terrorist who just happens to be British and secular. But hey, he is killing Pakistanis not Brits. Gotta mean something right? A soldier outside of a war zone is no more a legitimate target than a civilian. Killing a soldier on a battlefield, and killing a soldier in his home town, where he carries out non-combat duties are two completely different things: Entering a battlefield a soldier stares down his enemies, daring them to try and take him down, fully aware of how dangerous what he is doing is. That is the essence of the sacrifice of being a warrior. Attacking servicemen outside of a conflict zone is obviously an act of terror. That the terrorist makes it clear that he is attacking only servicemen, and is not a danger to civilians, is no excuse. A terrorist does not, ex ante, present himself to his enemies and declare his belligerency, daring his enemies to try and take him down. A terrorist hides among civilians like a coward, and relies entirely on his opponent's unawareness and unpreparedness. You see the difference? The difference between being a terrorist and being a soldier. Being a warrior? You mean sitting at home droning people is an act of courage and sacrifice, but killing a soldier in broad daylight and then waiting for the cops to come is some sort of cowardly act? Regardless, soldiers are valid military target, in or out of uniform. Otherwise the last 50 years of general war have been against illegitimate military targets. You couldn't bomb a barracks, or an airfield if your definition was somehow correct. Its not.
You don't see the difference then.
I've posted in this thread on the subject of drone strikes, and they are justified as a matter of pragmatism: The Islamists resorted to cowardly acts of terror first, and drone systems are in response to them. There's nothing particularly magnanimous about it, it just needs to be done. Therefore it is the field of intelligence agencies turned paramilitary organizations.
Soldiers indeed are valid military targets, but that does not make this attack any less an act of terror. It was a cowardly strike by a coward from among civilians, acted outside of conflict zone, on an unsuspecting, unarmed man who had chosen to serve his country with his life, and returned from tour in Afghanistan safely.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51449 Posts
Secretary General of Muslim Council of Britain:Farooq Murad,"The suspects have insulted Allah and they have dishonoured our faith. These voices of extremism have no place in our mosques or societies. People may suggest this is about foreign policy, that may be, but nothing at all justifies this action.This is a truly barbaric act.
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I love this piece so very, very much. Perfectly coherent, as unbiased as it can be, even spells out that 'not calling it terrorism =/ justifying it'.
This better go viral.
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On May 24 2013 00:32 frontliner2 wrote:
Btw, we in the Netherland also had a beheading a few years back of critical thinker Theo van Gogh. He was too critical of Islam (not according to me but according to Muslims and the Left).
What does annoy me is that if FEEL (yes I don't KNOW it) that lot's of muslims celebrate when they hear of this. Much like people who cried tears of joy upon hearing about 3000 Westerners dead after 9/11. Shit like that pisses me off beyond belief... Really frustrating. I don't want to hate anyone and I especially don't want any groups hating anyone who lives in The Great West just because they are not muslims.
Sometimes I just hate the world in general. so much contempt and hatred. So much injustice.
If I may offer the comfort that we are actually finally winning this war on terror. Central to which is actually realizing that it's not so much a war, as a matter of subjugating terror. There were plenty of mistakes along the way from 2001 to today, but these days most of the cost is actually paid in civil liberties that have been eroded by the simple realization that protecting life and property is in today's world no longer an easy task. Yes there were material losses and lives lost, but neither in any quantities that would cause more than individual grief and doubt.
The radical Islamists have largely lost. The uprising that Al-Qaida was supposed to be the spark for, never came, and these days any faction friendly to their ideology has to live in fear of hellfire missiles raining from the sky like wrath of god. The only thing they have left is what they begun with, spite and hate. And we can be content with that.
Afghanistan, we are going to have to see what comes of it.. reversion to taleban religious rule is no longer an option however. The instated legal authority is likely already too strong to be overthrown by open conflict. Iraq was a huge mess, but it too now has a legal authority that will neither be challenged openly, or overturned from inside. What remains is continuous suppression Al-Qaida's ideological allies along the coast of the Arabian peninsula, and in Pakistan. The unfortunate part is that that operation will have to be extended indefinitely, but hey, the cold war ended once too.
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Sad day. Those hands.... Wow
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On May 24 2013 00:19 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 00:17 Sjokola wrote:On May 23 2013 23:54 Incognoto wrote:On May 23 2013 23:43 hzflank wrote:On May 23 2013 23:41 Incognoto wrote:
What sins are being committed by the UK government that this guy was against? This is what's confusing me the most here really. The invasion of muslim countries. To be more specific it is probably Afghanistan. I doubt that the extremist groups who told him what to believe minded us too much in Libya or potentially Syria. OK... correct me if I'm wrong, the invasion of Afghanistan is an invasion based off the fact that the west (USA, UK, etc) wanted to dislodge Al-quaeda and the Taliban from Afghanistan, since they're extremist assholes anyway. If wikipedia is worth anything, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want the Taliban at the head of my country: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban#OverviewSo, in my opinion, the invasion of Afghanistan is justified. If you feel I'm missing something then please point out the one fundamental detail I'm not getting which should change my point of view. Now that I've established that there's a good reason to be in Afghanistan, I can now call the murderer a complete fucktard, quite happily. War is war, there will always be causalities. Unless the UK government is somehow murdering innocent people or torturing prisoners or something nasty like that, there's no reason to say that the UK is sinful. Again, I may be missing something here so if you disagree with what I say, just say why. What's more is that using violence to get a message across is nothing short of disgusting and if anything, it makes me want to ignore the message. It's possible to send a message without beheading someone in public. That's what MLK did, that's what Ghandi did. I don't care what your motives are, you don't resort to violence to say something. That's a fucking asshole thing to do. The fact that we don't want the Taliban to head our countries doesn't give us the right to dislodge them. There are many regimes that is don't agree with. In fact I dare say there aren't any governments/regimes/countries that everybody wants to live in and be subject to. If an invasion would be justified on our beliefs and morals then an invasion from North Korea or Islamic countries whatever in Western Europe would be just as justified. Also the reason Taliban in is Afghanistan (being from Pakistan origin) is because they were "recruited" by the US to fight against the Russians. We shouldn't meddle unless our help is requested. No one has the right to force his or hers beliefs upon someone else. For the sake of argument, how would they request help? What would be the proper protocol?
That is a difficult point. But I guess that when a lot of bordering countries and perhaps opposition parties would ask for it. Like happens in Syria I believe. And at that point helping resistance by supplying them seems to me a better solution than invading with a western force. But then again. That's what the US did with Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban before. Perhaps the Syrian opposition will start fighting US in a few years if for example the drone attacks continue.
Like what happened in Libya creating a no fly zone. Or the French troop aiding Mali forces.
Western countries decide to easy about bringing war upon a country and it's people.
But I'm not informed enough to come up with the solution 
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On May 24 2013 00:47 Kontys wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 00:32 frontliner2 wrote:
Btw, we in the Netherland also had a beheading a few years back of critical thinker Theo van Gogh. He was too critical of Islam (not according to me but according to Muslims and the Left).
What does annoy me is that if FEEL (yes I don't KNOW it) that lot's of muslims celebrate when they hear of this. Much like people who cried tears of joy upon hearing about 3000 Westerners dead after 9/11. Shit like that pisses me off beyond belief... Really frustrating. I don't want to hate anyone and I especially don't want any groups hating anyone who lives in The Great West just because they are not muslims.
Sometimes I just hate the world in general. so much contempt and hatred. So much injustice.
If I may offer the comfort that we are actually finally winning this war on terror. Central to which is actually realizing that it's not so much a war, as a matter of subjugating terror. There were plenty of mistakes along the way from 2001 to today, but these days most of the cost is actually paid in civil liberties that have been eroded by the simple realization that protecting life and property is in today's world no longer an easy task. Yes there were material losses and lives lost, but neither in any quantities that would cause more than individual grief and doubt. The radical Islamists have largely lost. The uprising that Al-Qaida was supposed to be the spark for, never came, and these days any faction friendly to their ideology has to live in fear of hellfire missiles raining from the sky like wrath of god. The only thing they have left is what they begun with, spite and hate. And we can be content with that. Afghanistan, we are going to have to see what comes of it.. reversion to taleban religious rule is no longer an option however. The instated legal authority is likely already too strong to be overthrown by open conflict. Iraq was a huge mess, but it too now has a legal authority that will neither be challenged openly, or overturned from inside. What remains is continuous suppression Al-Qaida's ideological allies along the coast of the Arabian peninsula, and in Pakistan. The unfortunate part is that that operation will have to be extended indefinitely, but hey, the cold war ended once too.
If only the drone attacks in Pakistan would stop. They spawn Al Quaida and Taliban supporters daily.
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On May 24 2013 00:46 Taguchi wrote:I love this piece so very, very much. Perfectly coherent, as unbiased as it can be, even spells out that 'not calling it terrorism =/ justifying it'. This better go viral.
brilliant, level-headed piece of journalism
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On May 24 2013 00:33 Kontys wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 22:30 redviper wrote:On May 23 2013 22:11 Kontys wrote:On May 23 2013 21:39 redviper wrote:On May 23 2013 20:38 thezanursic wrote:On May 23 2013 03:28 Asshat wrote:
Seems like every criminal act performed by a muslim is called an act of terror these days. From massive attacks with explosives, killing sprees, to isolated assaults/murders performed by random lunatics such as this case. No holds barred. I don't live in the UK, but I'm pretty sure cutting somebody's head of in public, outside of a military base and putting it on display while screaming Alah Akbar is an act of terror. Not somebody's head. A soldiers head. How in the world can an attack on a militant be considered terror. Does that mean every act of war is an act of terrorism? After all wars are religiously and politically motivated, involve killing soldiers and definitely involve putting on a display. I find it odd to see the British being so shocked about this but still continue to protect Altaf Hussain, a real terrorist who just happens to be British and secular. But hey, he is killing Pakistanis not Brits. Gotta mean something right? A soldier outside of a war zone is no more a legitimate target than a civilian. Killing a soldier on a battlefield, and killing a soldier in his home town, where he carries out non-combat duties are two completely different things: Entering a battlefield a soldier stares down his enemies, daring them to try and take him down, fully aware of how dangerous what he is doing is. That is the essence of the sacrifice of being a warrior. Attacking servicemen outside of a conflict zone is obviously an act of terror. That the terrorist makes it clear that he is attacking only servicemen, and is not a danger to civilians, is no excuse. A terrorist does not, ex ante, present himself to his enemies and declare his belligerency, daring his enemies to try and take him down. A terrorist hides among civilians like a coward, and relies entirely on his opponent's unawareness and unpreparedness. You see the difference? The difference between being a terrorist and being a soldier. Being a warrior? You mean sitting at home droning people is an act of courage and sacrifice, but killing a soldier in broad daylight and then waiting for the cops to come is some sort of cowardly act? Regardless, soldiers are valid military target, in or out of uniform. Otherwise the last 50 years of general war have been against illegitimate military targets. You couldn't bomb a barracks, or an airfield if your definition was somehow correct. Its not. You don't see the difference then. I've posted in this thread on the subject of drone strikes, and they are justified as a matter of pragmatism: The Islamists resorted to cowardly acts of terror first, and drone systems are in response to them. There's nothing particularly magnanimous about it, it just needs to be done. Therefore it is the field of intelligence agencies turned paramilitary organizations. Soldiers indeed are valid military targets, but that does not make this attack any less an act of terror. It was a cowardly strike by a coward from among civilians, acted outside of conflict zone, on an unsuspecting, unarmed man who had chosen to serve his country with his life, and returned from tour in Afghanistan safely.
What the hell is outside the combat zone anyway when declaring war on terror ?
And enemy combatant ? There was no enemy combatant, the perpetrator was a civilian.
He was not wearing any uniform or other marks to identify him as a combatant.
Alternatively we could declare these civilians as enemy combatants and wipe them out that would at least solve the problem of innocent lives getting lost because their wound't be any. And if terrorist continue on their path, sooner or later it will lead to this and the next mass slaughter of people ... maybe not tomorrow or in a year or even in a century, but it will happen.
History always repeats itself.
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On May 24 2013 00:32 frontliner2 wrote:
Btw, we in the Netherland also had a beheading a few years back of critical thinker Theo van Gogh. He was too critical of Islam (not according to me but according to Muslims and the Left).
What does annoy me is that if FEEL (yes I don't KNOW it) that lot's of muslims celebrate when they hear of this. Much like people who cried tears of joy upon hearing about 3000 Westerners dead after 9/11. Shit like that pisses me off beyond belief... Really frustrating. I don't want to hate anyone and I especially don't want any groups hating anyone who lives in The Great West just because they are not muslims.
Sometimes I just hate the world in general. so much contempt and hatred. So much injustice.
I know exactly how you feel. Something broke inside of me when I saw the live feed of dancing and laughing people form Gaza when the news of 9/11 broke. It felt ... despairing. Humanity still has a lot to learn 
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On May 24 2013 01:08 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 00:32 frontliner2 wrote:
Btw, we in the Netherland also had a beheading a few years back of critical thinker Theo van Gogh. He was too critical of Islam (not according to me but according to Muslims and the Left).
What does annoy me is that if FEEL (yes I don't KNOW it) that lot's of muslims celebrate when they hear of this. Much like people who cried tears of joy upon hearing about 3000 Westerners dead after 9/11. Shit like that pisses me off beyond belief... Really frustrating. I don't want to hate anyone and I especially don't want any groups hating anyone who lives in The Great West just because they are not muslims.
Sometimes I just hate the world in general. so much contempt and hatred. So much injustice.
I know exactly how you feel. Something broke inside of me when I saw the live feed of dancing and laughing people form Gaza when the news of 9/11 broke. It felt ... despairing. Humanity still has a lot to learn
I rememeber seeing 2 cars honking and people shouting of joy from my apartment. Its the nature of humens to hate. its something that will never go away.
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On May 24 2013 01:11 TheRealArtemis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 01:08 ACrow wrote:On May 24 2013 00:32 frontliner2 wrote:
Btw, we in the Netherland also had a beheading a few years back of critical thinker Theo van Gogh. He was too critical of Islam (not according to me but according to Muslims and the Left).
What does annoy me is that if FEEL (yes I don't KNOW it) that lot's of muslims celebrate when they hear of this. Much like people who cried tears of joy upon hearing about 3000 Westerners dead after 9/11. Shit like that pisses me off beyond belief... Really frustrating. I don't want to hate anyone and I especially don't want any groups hating anyone who lives in The Great West just because they are not muslims.
Sometimes I just hate the world in general. so much contempt and hatred. So much injustice.
I know exactly how you feel. Something broke inside of me when I saw the live feed of dancing and laughing people form Gaza when the news of 9/11 broke. It felt ... despairing. Humanity still has a lot to learn I rememeber seeing 2 cars honking and people shouting of joy from my apartment. Its the nature of humens to hate. its something that will never go away.
you have any actual evidence for that?
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On May 24 2013 01:12 mememolly wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 01:11 TheRealArtemis wrote:On May 24 2013 01:08 ACrow wrote:On May 24 2013 00:32 frontliner2 wrote:
Btw, we in the Netherland also had a beheading a few years back of critical thinker Theo van Gogh. He was too critical of Islam (not according to me but according to Muslims and the Left).
What does annoy me is that if FEEL (yes I don't KNOW it) that lot's of muslims celebrate when they hear of this. Much like people who cried tears of joy upon hearing about 3000 Westerners dead after 9/11. Shit like that pisses me off beyond belief... Really frustrating. I don't want to hate anyone and I especially don't want any groups hating anyone who lives in The Great West just because they are not muslims.
Sometimes I just hate the world in general. so much contempt and hatred. So much injustice.
I know exactly how you feel. Something broke inside of me when I saw the live feed of dancing and laughing people form Gaza when the news of 9/11 broke. It felt ... despairing. Humanity still has a lot to learn I rememeber seeing 2 cars honking and people shouting of joy from my apartment. Its the nature of humens to hate. its something that will never go away. you have any actual evidence for that?
Well, I thought history would be enough evidence of that. If we havent improved in 200.000 years of killing each other, then why would things get better? If that doesnt show the nature of humens, i dont know what does. That being said, Im not saying humans are incapable of doing good Things.
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On May 24 2013 01:18 TheRealArtemis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 01:12 mememolly wrote:On May 24 2013 01:11 TheRealArtemis wrote:On May 24 2013 01:08 ACrow wrote:On May 24 2013 00:32 frontliner2 wrote:
Btw, we in the Netherland also had a beheading a few years back of critical thinker Theo van Gogh. He was too critical of Islam (not according to me but according to Muslims and the Left).
What does annoy me is that if FEEL (yes I don't KNOW it) that lot's of muslims celebrate when they hear of this. Much like people who cried tears of joy upon hearing about 3000 Westerners dead after 9/11. Shit like that pisses me off beyond belief... Really frustrating. I don't want to hate anyone and I especially don't want any groups hating anyone who lives in The Great West just because they are not muslims.
Sometimes I just hate the world in general. so much contempt and hatred. So much injustice.
I know exactly how you feel. Something broke inside of me when I saw the live feed of dancing and laughing people form Gaza when the news of 9/11 broke. It felt ... despairing. Humanity still has a lot to learn I rememeber seeing 2 cars honking and people shouting of joy from my apartment. Its the nature of humens to hate. its something that will never go away. you have any actual evidence for that? Well, I thought history would be enough evidence of that. If we havent improved in 200.000 years of killing each other, then why would things get better? If that doesnt show the nature of humens, i dont know what does. That being said, Im not saying humans are incapable of doing good Things.
we can and have evolved our morality over the years, just saying, history suggests the opposite of what you're suggesting
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United Kingdom31935 Posts
Disgusted about what happend but this doesnt give a reason to hate on Muslims just my 2 cents those 2 were just nutjobs.
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To the people blaming Islam: He obviously did it because he was black. I mean what's wrong with saying that? Is there a logical or moral divide between calling someone a nigger and calling someone a towelhead, or do we just change scapegoats every few generations?
Or maybe it was because he was a chav. Because he was male? Let's just simplify this whole thing any way we want so that it suits our fuckin' world view.
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On May 24 2013 01:12 mememolly wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 01:11 TheRealArtemis wrote:On May 24 2013 01:08 ACrow wrote:On May 24 2013 00:32 frontliner2 wrote:
Btw, we in the Netherland also had a beheading a few years back of critical thinker Theo van Gogh. He was too critical of Islam (not according to me but according to Muslims and the Left).
What does annoy me is that if FEEL (yes I don't KNOW it) that lot's of muslims celebrate when they hear of this. Much like people who cried tears of joy upon hearing about 3000 Westerners dead after 9/11. Shit like that pisses me off beyond belief... Really frustrating. I don't want to hate anyone and I especially don't want any groups hating anyone who lives in The Great West just because they are not muslims.
Sometimes I just hate the world in general. so much contempt and hatred. So much injustice.
I know exactly how you feel. Something broke inside of me when I saw the live feed of dancing and laughing people form Gaza when the news of 9/11 broke. It felt ... despairing. Humanity still has a lot to learn I rememeber seeing 2 cars honking and people shouting of joy from my apartment. Its the nature of humens to hate. its something that will never go away. you have any actual evidence for that?
The fact slavery along with mass murders, rapes, pedophilia, were (almost) universal among mankind 1000 years ago.
The Human genome hasn't seriously evolved since then, but now these things are strictly forbidden, even in a context of war, and will pretty much always either get you killed or at least get in jail.
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On May 24 2013 01:19 mememolly wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 01:18 TheRealArtemis wrote:On May 24 2013 01:12 mememolly wrote:On May 24 2013 01:11 TheRealArtemis wrote:On May 24 2013 01:08 ACrow wrote:On May 24 2013 00:32 frontliner2 wrote:
Btw, we in the Netherland also had a beheading a few years back of critical thinker Theo van Gogh. He was too critical of Islam (not according to me but according to Muslims and the Left).
What does annoy me is that if FEEL (yes I don't KNOW it) that lot's of muslims celebrate when they hear of this. Much like people who cried tears of joy upon hearing about 3000 Westerners dead after 9/11. Shit like that pisses me off beyond belief... Really frustrating. I don't want to hate anyone and I especially don't want any groups hating anyone who lives in The Great West just because they are not muslims.
Sometimes I just hate the world in general. so much contempt and hatred. So much injustice.
I know exactly how you feel. Something broke inside of me when I saw the live feed of dancing and laughing people form Gaza when the news of 9/11 broke. It felt ... despairing. Humanity still has a lot to learn I rememeber seeing 2 cars honking and people shouting of joy from my apartment. Its the nature of humens to hate. its something that will never go away. you have any actual evidence for that? Well, I thought history would be enough evidence of that. If we havent improved in 200.000 years of killing each other, then why would things get better? If that doesnt show the nature of humens, i dont know what does. That being said, Im not saying humans are incapable of doing good Things. we can and have evolved our morality over the years, just saying, history suggests the opposite of what you're suggesting
People will gladly kill eachother once they have dehumanized a subsection of humanity they do not agree with.
Faith and race seem to be the two most common ways people do this.
Extremist muslims are representing both essentially as they tend to be of arab heritage. This isn't going to end well.
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EPT
