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Please attempt to distinguish between extremists and non extremists to avoid starting the inevitable waste of time that is "can Islam be judged by its believers?" - KwarK |
On May 24 2013 00:53 mememolly wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 00:46 Taguchi wrote:I love this piece so very, very much. Perfectly coherent, as unbiased as it can be, even spells out that 'not calling it terrorism =/ justifying it'. This better go viral. brilliant, level-headed piece of journalism
Kwark. I'm waiting for...."Greenwald is an idiot!".
I think the person I agree with the most is the quoted British soldier at the end of that article.
"While nothing can justify the savage killing in Woolwich yesterday of a man since confirmed to have been a serving British soldier, it should not be hard to explain why the murder happened. . . . It should by now be self-evident that by attacking Muslims overseas, you will occasionally spawn twisted and, as we saw yesterday, even murderous hatred at home. We need to recognise that, given the continued role our government has chosen to play in the US imperial project in the Middle East, we are lucky that these attacks are so few and far between."
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On May 24 2013 01:19 mememolly wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 01:18 TheRealArtemis wrote:On May 24 2013 01:12 mememolly wrote:On May 24 2013 01:11 TheRealArtemis wrote:On May 24 2013 01:08 ACrow wrote:On May 24 2013 00:32 frontliner2 wrote:
Btw, we in the Netherland also had a beheading a few years back of critical thinker Theo van Gogh. He was too critical of Islam (not according to me but according to Muslims and the Left).
What does annoy me is that if FEEL (yes I don't KNOW it) that lot's of muslims celebrate when they hear of this. Much like people who cried tears of joy upon hearing about 3000 Westerners dead after 9/11. Shit like that pisses me off beyond belief... Really frustrating. I don't want to hate anyone and I especially don't want any groups hating anyone who lives in The Great West just because they are not muslims.
Sometimes I just hate the world in general. so much contempt and hatred. So much injustice.
I know exactly how you feel. Something broke inside of me when I saw the live feed of dancing and laughing people form Gaza when the news of 9/11 broke. It felt ... despairing. Humanity still has a lot to learn  I rememeber seeing 2 cars honking and people shouting of joy from my apartment. Its the nature of humens to hate. its something that will never go away. you have any actual evidence for that? Well, I thought history would be enough evidence of that. If we havent improved in 200.000 years of killing each other, then why would things get better? If that doesnt show the nature of humens, i dont know what does. That being said, Im not saying humans are incapable of doing good Things. we can and have evolved our morality over the years, just saying, history suggests the opposite of what you're suggesting
I dont see it. Sorry. Its the same deal, except now you get locked up for doing it. People flying airplanes into buildings, school shootings, serbian/bosnian war, 30.000 muslim women raped. or India where women gets raped every 20 minutes.
We might not see public hangings anymore to show an example of people, but its the same crimes that are being committed. I cant see how our morality have improved. We just percieve it as being good at the moment.
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Racial/cultural tensions seem to be boiling over throughout the West. Exacerbated by declining economic prospects, an increasingly polarized politicization of every event and nuance of news, the lack of personal identity, the faltering hierarchies of traditional society with nothing to replace them and our Fanatical commitment to equality despite the fact that all evidence points to the contrary. Expect things to get worse before they get better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sink
Meta-analysis of the situation (I think it's a symptom of Western social schizophrenia and constant displays of weakness):
+ Show Spoiler +
Whether most people are willing to believe it or not, there is a culture war coming. Something in our society is sick, everyone with eyes can see it, though no one has a name for it or can point it out. Things are not right. Even if we won't acknowledge it, other cultures will and they'll use it against us (and rightly so).
I am more and more reminded of the Calhoun Mouse Study. Shootings, strange outlandish behaviors, cultural and racial resentments building in the pressure cooker of Egalitarianism.
Wake up Westerners. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark. Every slight (social and personal) is responded to with half measures, veiled threats, never followed through on in a reasonable time. We look weak. If we don't do something to fix it, to fight it, we deserve whatever we get. By God. Have some sense of self, a sense of culture.
I do not relish the idea of it all. Not one bit.
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On May 23 2013 20:58 adwodon wrote:
Facebook is a cesspool today. People of my lovely hometown of Nottingham are really showing their colours.
Horrible incident, horrible reaction by a disturbingly large portion of a supposedly civilised society.
Glad to see everyone in England doesn't think everyone else is uncivilized and barbaric and think they are so much better than everyone else because they don't think it is morally just to execute a person.
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On May 24 2013 01:27 BioNova wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 00:53 mememolly wrote:On May 24 2013 00:46 Taguchi wrote:I love this piece so very, very much. Perfectly coherent, as unbiased as it can be, even spells out that 'not calling it terrorism =/ justifying it'. This better go viral. brilliant, level-headed piece of journalism Kwark. I'm waiting for...."Greenwald is an idiot!". I think the person I agree with the most is the quoted British soldier at the end of that article. Show nested quote +"While nothing can justify the savage killing in Woolwich yesterday of a man since confirmed to have been a serving British soldier, it should not be hard to explain why the murder happened. . . . It should by now be self-evident that by attacking Muslims overseas, you will occasionally spawn twisted and, as we saw yesterday, even murderous hatred at home. We need to recognise that, given the continued role our government has chosen to play in the US imperial project in the Middle East, we are lucky that these attacks are so few and far between."
Why would Kwark not like Greenwald?
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On May 24 2013 00:17 Sjokola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 23:54 Incognoto wrote:On May 23 2013 23:43 hzflank wrote:On May 23 2013 23:41 Incognoto wrote:
What sins are being committed by the UK government that this guy was against? This is what's confusing me the most here really. The invasion of muslim countries. To be more specific it is probably Afghanistan. I doubt that the extremist groups who told him what to believe minded us too much in Libya or potentially Syria. OK... correct me if I'm wrong, the invasion of Afghanistan is an invasion based off the fact that the west (USA, UK, etc) wanted to dislodge Al-quaeda and the Taliban from Afghanistan, since they're extremist assholes anyway. If wikipedia is worth anything, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want the Taliban at the head of my country: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban#OverviewSo, in my opinion, the invasion of Afghanistan is justified. If you feel I'm missing something then please point out the one fundamental detail I'm not getting which should change my point of view. Now that I've established that there's a good reason to be in Afghanistan, I can now call the murderer a complete fucktard, quite happily. War is war, there will always be causalities. Unless the UK government is somehow murdering innocent people or torturing prisoners or something nasty like that, there's no reason to say that the UK is sinful. Again, I may be missing something here so if you disagree with what I say, just say why. What's more is that using violence to get a message across is nothing short of disgusting and if anything, it makes me want to ignore the message. It's possible to send a message without beheading someone in public. That's what MLK did, that's what Ghandi did. I don't care what your motives are, you don't resort to violence to say something. That's a fucking asshole thing to do. The fact that we don't want the Taliban to head our countries doesn't give us the right to dislodge them. There are many regimes that is don't agree with. In fact I dare say there aren't any governments/regimes/countries that everybody wants to live in and be subject to. If an invasion would be justified on our beliefs and morals then an invasion from North Korea or Islamic countries whatever in Western Europe would be just as justified. Also the reason Taliban in is Afghanistan (being from Pakistan origin) is because they were "recruited" by the US to fight against the Russians. We shouldn't meddle unless our help is requested. No one has the right to force his or hers beliefs upon someone else.
If the people of that nation don't desire to live under said regime they should revolt. But what happens when the power is truly held by that regime? Should we let them execute women who talk with another guy? Or should we sit on our hand and say that is their business to settle. Also said invasion of the US from some other nation to "free" us of our government would be rejected completely by the citizens. In the countries we are speaking of however a decent portion want to be done with the Taliban and an even larger portion doesn't know they would be better off without the Taliban. Also who the hell is going to request help? You want letters from the citizens of these countries to go to the president? What percentage of the population must send a letter before we give aid? You want them to send letter through their government's postal service to our government asking us to rid them of theirs? Please.
Edit: I do agree though that until the people want more aka start rebelling against what is wrong then we should stay out. If they're not willing to fight their own war against their oppressors we have no need to do it for them.
On May 24 2013 01:32 TheRealArtemis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 01:19 mememolly wrote:On May 24 2013 01:18 TheRealArtemis wrote:On May 24 2013 01:12 mememolly wrote:On May 24 2013 01:11 TheRealArtemis wrote:On May 24 2013 01:08 ACrow wrote:On May 24 2013 00:32 frontliner2 wrote:
Btw, we in the Netherland also had a beheading a few years back of critical thinker Theo van Gogh. He was too critical of Islam (not according to me but according to Muslims and the Left).
What does annoy me is that if FEEL (yes I don't KNOW it) that lot's of muslims celebrate when they hear of this. Much like people who cried tears of joy upon hearing about 3000 Westerners dead after 9/11. Shit like that pisses me off beyond belief... Really frustrating. I don't want to hate anyone and I especially don't want any groups hating anyone who lives in The Great West just because they are not muslims.
Sometimes I just hate the world in general. so much contempt and hatred. So much injustice.
I know exactly how you feel. Something broke inside of me when I saw the live feed of dancing and laughing people form Gaza when the news of 9/11 broke. It felt ... despairing. Humanity still has a lot to learn I rememeber seeing 2 cars honking and people shouting of joy from my apartment. Its the nature of humens to hate. its something that will never go away. you have any actual evidence for that? Well, I thought history would be enough evidence of that. If we havent improved in 200.000 years of killing each other, then why would things get better? If that doesnt show the nature of humens, i dont know what does. That being said, Im not saying humans are incapable of doing good Things. we can and have evolved our morality over the years, just saying, history suggests the opposite of what you're suggesting I dont see it. Sorry. Its the same deal, except now you get locked up for doing it. People flying airplanes into buildings, school shootings, serbian/bosnian war, 30.000 muslim women raped. or India where women gets raped every 20 minutes. We might not see public hangings anymore to show an example of people, but its the same crimes that are being committed. I cant see how our morality have improved. We just percieve it as being good at the moment.
Maybe morality for some has not improved, but morality for many has. Some cultures and people might not have advanced, but to argue that there is no difference between caveman days and the current times is ridiculous.
On May 24 2013 02:04 TheSwamp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 03:13 mainerd wrote:
Mental instability and sickness comes in many forms and can manifest itself in violent, gruesome ways. Here's hoping everyone stays calm and this doesn't trigger any further violence. What is scary is how easily they seem to find each other. This is terrible. I feel so bad for the victim. Acts such as this are what made me a very paranoid person for a long time. Does anyone know if the soldier had any training in close quarters combat? I'm not insinuating that he was poorly trained. I'm just interested.
I don't know anything about the man who committed the crime, but he doesn't look unfit. Also one can assume even though I'm not sure, that this attack was not carried out with a warning where the man claimed he was going to attack his victim beforehand. Also this topic on the whole is irrelevant.
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On May 24 2013 01:45 Kimaker wrote:Racial/cultural tensions seem to be boiling over throughout the West. Exacerbated by declining economic prospects, an increasingly polarized politicization of every event and nuance of news, the lack of personal identity, the faltering hierarchies of traditional society with nothing to replace them and our Fanatical commitment to equality despite the fact that all evidence points to the contrary. Expect things to get worse before they get better. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sinkMeta-analysis of the situation (I think it's a symptom of Western social schizophrenia and constant displays of weakness): + Show Spoiler +
Whether most people are willing to believe it or not, there is a culture war coming. Something in our society is sick, everyone with eyes can see it, though no one has a name for it or can point it out. Things are not right. Even if we won't acknowledge it, other cultures will and they'll use it against us (and rightly so).
I am more and more reminded of the Calhoun Mouse Study. Shootings, strange outlandish behaviors, cultural and racial resentments building in the pressure cooker of Egalitarianism.
Wake up Westerners. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark. Every slight (social and personal) is responded to with half measures, veiled threats, never followed through on in a reasonable time. We look weak. If we don't do something to fix it, to fight it, we deserve whatever we get. By God. Have some sense of self, a sense of culture.
I do not relish the idea of it all. Not one bit.
so what do you propose?
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On May 23 2013 03:13 mainerd wrote:
Mental instability and sickness comes in many forms and can manifest itself in violent, gruesome ways. Here's hoping everyone stays calm and this doesn't trigger any further violence.
What is scary is how easily they seem to find each other.
This is terrible. I feel so bad for the victim. Acts such as this are what made me a very paranoid person for a long time. Does anyone know if the soldier had any training in close quarters combat? I'm not insinuating that he was poorly trained. I'm just interested.
Edit: Also what's the deal with the passerby? Did they threaten the person or something?
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On May 24 2013 02:04 TheSwamp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 03:13 mainerd wrote:
Mental instability and sickness comes in many forms and can manifest itself in violent, gruesome ways. Here's hoping everyone stays calm and this doesn't trigger any further violence. What is scary is how easily they seem to find each other. This is terrible. I feel so bad for the victim. Acts such as this are what made me a very paranoid person for a long time. Does anyone know if the soldier had any training in close quarters combat? I'm not insinuating that he was poorly trained. I'm just interested.
It has been reported that the attackers may have first rammed him with their car before attacking him. I don't think close quarters combat training would have helped much.
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On May 24 2013 01:58 ImFromPortugal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 01:45 Kimaker wrote:Racial/cultural tensions seem to be boiling over throughout the West. Exacerbated by declining economic prospects, an increasingly polarized politicization of every event and nuance of news, the lack of personal identity, the faltering hierarchies of traditional society with nothing to replace them and our Fanatical commitment to equality despite the fact that all evidence points to the contrary. Expect things to get worse before they get better. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sinkMeta-analysis of the situation (I think it's a symptom of Western social schizophrenia and constant displays of weakness): + Show Spoiler +
Whether most people are willing to believe it or not, there is a culture war coming. Something in our society is sick, everyone with eyes can see it, though no one has a name for it or can point it out. Things are not right. Even if we won't acknowledge it, other cultures will and they'll use it against us (and rightly so).
I am more and more reminded of the Calhoun Mouse Study. Shootings, strange outlandish behaviors, cultural and racial resentments building in the pressure cooker of Egalitarianism.
Wake up Westerners. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark. Every slight (social and personal) is responded to with half measures, veiled threats, never followed through on in a reasonable time. We look weak. If we don't do something to fix it, to fight it, we deserve whatever we get. By God. Have some sense of self, a sense of culture.
I do not relish the idea of it all. Not one bit. so what do you propose?
I'm not sure it can be "fixed" in a social sense. The best we can do is to bite the bit, and do our best to be the best we can be. Every day set an example. Don't let things slide anymore. When something is wrong, fucking tell people it's wrong. When someone is rude, call their asses out, hold a door twice a day (make a point of it), strike up a friendly conversation with a stranger, draw up a list of things to do every goddamned day and do that shit. When someone else is feeling like being lazy, inform them that it's not okay, that behavior like that is not acceptable.
Whether by shame, inspiration, peer-pressure, well thought out argument, or example, every person who sees something wrong can fix things. Not by protesting, not by parading or rallying, not by shouting on the street corners, but by doing the things that should be done everyday, because it's the right thing to do and refusing to tolerate anything less from your peers.
In other words, our society needs to Man the Fuck Up.
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On May 24 2013 01:55 maartendq wrote:Brilliant article.
Sorry, how is it brilliant? It seems to be a standard reporting piece to me.
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Overall, I guess I'm glad that the attacker didn't go after any civilians. He committed an absolutely barbaric act no doubt, but it could have been worse... And I'm really not sure how I feel about it being motivated by Islam... It's getting harder and harder to justify religious beliefs when they lead to such atrocities so (relatively) often
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On May 24 2013 02:23 TheDougler wrote:
Overall, I guess I'm glad that the attacker didn't go after any civilians. He committed an absolutely barbaric act no doubt, but it could have been worse... And I'm really not sure how I feel about it being motivated by Islam... It's getting harder and harder to justify religious beliefs when they lead to such atrocities so (relatively) often
Don't scape goat this on something so derivative. It's far more complex than that and you know it.
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I feel like this is a stupid situation. These two men could have yelled "Death to the robot overlords" when they killed the soldier and the amount of publicity this attack has gotten would be zero. But because they mentioned something that has to do with a religion that the Western world ostracizes and condemns as evil and violent, suddenly everyone wants to talk about it. Wake up, sheeple. There are no terrorists, only disturbed individuals who don't know how else to be heard or seen. We are drowning in our own filth and blaming that filth on a god or a book instead of the people who created it; us.
I am appalled.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 24 2013 01:46 teapot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 01:27 BioNova wrote:On May 24 2013 00:53 mememolly wrote:On May 24 2013 00:46 Taguchi wrote:I love this piece so very, very much. Perfectly coherent, as unbiased as it can be, even spells out that 'not calling it terrorism =/ justifying it'. This better go viral. brilliant, level-headed piece of journalism Kwark. I'm waiting for...."Greenwald is an idiot!". I think the person I agree with the most is the quoted British soldier at the end of that article. "While nothing can justify the savage killing in Woolwich yesterday of a man since confirmed to have been a serving British soldier, it should not be hard to explain why the murder happened. . . . It should by now be self-evident that by attacking Muslims overseas, you will occasionally spawn twisted and, as we saw yesterday, even murderous hatred at home. We need to recognise that, given the continued role our government has chosen to play in the US imperial project in the Middle East, we are lucky that these attacks are so few and far between." Why would Kwark not like Greenwald?
It was a friendly jest. He does not however like Greenwald.
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On May 24 2013 02:35 AcidMinded wrote:
I feel like this is a stupid situation. These two men could have yelled "Death to the robot overlords" when they killed the soldier and the amount of publicity this attack has gotten would be zero. But because they mentioned something that has to do with a religion that the Western world ostracizes and condemns as evil and violent, suddenly everyone wants to talk about it. Wake up, sheeple. There are no terrorists, only disturbed individuals who don't know how else to be heard or seen. We are drowning in our own filth and blaming that filth on a god or a book instead of the people who created it; us.
I am appalled.
Do you REALLY think it would not have been publicized if there were two people cutting someone's head off in London in broad daylight while there were onlookers filming videos, and then one of the guys giving some kind of speech about robot overlords to one of the bystanders which then would be shared on the Internet?
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On May 24 2013 02:35 AcidMinded wrote:
I feel like this is a stupid situation. These two men could have yelled "Death to the robot overlords" when they killed the soldier and the amount of publicity this attack has gotten would be zero. But because they mentioned something that has to do with a religion that the Western world ostracizes and condemns as evil and violent, suddenly everyone wants to talk about it. Wake up, sheeple. There are no terrorists, only disturbed individuals who don't know how else to be heard or seen. We are drowning in our own filth and blaming that filth on a god or a book instead of the people who created it; us.
I am appalled.
User was temp banned for this post.
Your ID is very fitting of an attitude like that. Chin up, life sucks if you view it through such a negative lens.
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Yeah savagely killing a random guy is the best way to make sure your arguments get across... so very sad. This is a fucked up world
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sad that we live in such a brutal world and these men are obviously devoid of humanity.
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EPT
