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Please attempt to distinguish between extremists and non extremists to avoid starting the inevitable waste of time that is "can Islam be judged by its believers?" - KwarK | ||
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Thor.Rush
Sweden702 Posts
On May 24 2013 06:31 Reason wrote: ^So what? These guys are obviously maniacs and are a disgrace to Islam. Yeah I agree. I'm just relating to the discussion about what gets attention and what doesn't.. maybe it's not interesting at all, but that kinda proves the point  | ||
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m1rk3
Canada412 Posts
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
On May 24 2013 06:40 Thor.Rush wrote: Yeah I agree. I'm just relating to the discussion about what gets attention and what doesn't.. maybe it's not interesting at all, but that kinda proves the point That discussion isn't even a discussion, what you are proving is that stories are of interest for reasons other than sheer level of wrongness, which isn't surprising in the slightest yet people seem to love whining about it... | ||
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PardonYou
United States1360 Posts
On May 24 2013 06:41 m1rk3 wrote: Change Title Please, I read OP and nothing about beheading. On May 23 2013 03:10 Pandemona wrote: Eye witness' say they chopped the mans head off in the process of the savage attack From the OP. Although I didn't read too much from other sites about it. | ||
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Iyerbeth
England2410 Posts
Footage of the guys who carried out the attack attempt to also carry out an apparently planned attack aginst the police who responded, but which resulted in them being shot. On May 24 2013 06:41 m1rk3 wrote: Change Title Please, I read OP and nothing about beheading. The above also includes: The footage reveals how, after beheading the soldier, they hatched a plot to ambush and murder the first police officers to come to his aid. “But then a couple of minutes later I heard a lot of people shouting ‘They have got a knife’ and ‘They are trying to cut his head off’ so I want back and looked out again. | ||
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DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
Then again maybe they aren't so lucky. Judging by how they acted with police I'm not sure how set they were on living. | ||
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imperator-xy
Germany1377 Posts
On May 24 2013 05:31 Crushinator wrote: Dont know if this post is supposed to be serious, but anyway:http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/02/birmingham-murder-racially-motivated-police Where are those riots? werent there huge riots with thousands of people after that incident? | ||
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revel8
United Kingdom3022 Posts
On May 24 2013 08:13 imperator-xy wrote: werent there huge riots with thousands of people after that incident? In a word, no. | ||
KwarK
United States44074 Posts
On May 24 2013 08:13 imperator-xy wrote: werent there huge riots with thousands of people after that incident? Completely different incident. | ||
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GaNgStaRR.ElV
Canada535 Posts
People are going nuts here, on my FB feed a lot of my English friends have been posting disgusting things like "get these raghead scum out of our country, burn down all mosques in london" and shit like that. Pretty good though I was in the need for a FB purge, so I posted comments like "you ignorant assholes are the entire reason England is one of the more racist/sexist/class-based Western society" then de-friended. I don't know if anyone watches Sky News but in their Press Preview they had some asshole white guy who pretty obviously harbors Nationalistic views secretly, he basically made an ass of himself on TV repeatedly while the other girl on it was telling him repeatedly that you go down a dark road by blaming religion for this; basically they are reporting how these guys were arrested in 2004 for taking part in a Islamic-extremist protest and being part of an organization whose head cleric said that it was right for his supporters to chop off the heads of any non-muslim infidels in the name of jihad. It's shaping up to be tomorrow's big story how they left these guys in the streets to do this, they were identified by counter-terrorist intelligence but listed as "not a risk to human life", despite identifiying with that cleric(who was thrown out of the UK) and having been arrested in the aforementioned demonstration. Also it has been reported that these guys went on Jihad to Africa although they didn't state the specifics about where, although I'm pretty sure I read that one of the killers admitted to having killed before in different countries when he was confronted in the streets. I can say for sure that police presense is CRAZY in London right now, just at the end of my street all day there was a ARV(Armed response vehicle) waiting with about 15 officers in it. I live in quite a Muslim/ethnic area of London so I'm guessing they knew that if anything was going to go down it would go down here, I tell you I will be bloody pissed if someone gets revenge on my falafel man, he is the best I have ever had  Overall I think aside from the obvious human tragedy and shock, there are two major bad points. One is that already EDL/BNP and even just average lower-class white British are being pushed into more extreme views about Islam; as we know from the example of Nazi Germany/Czechnya/Yugoslavia when your average citizen starts to look down upon ethnic groups as below them and not belonging you are always risking violence. People seem to overlook the fact that Islam is a peaceful religion and these asshats represent the kind of minority within their religion that would be the equivalent of like 0.1% of Muslims. Most Muslims are peaceful, law-abiding citizen who believe taking 1 life is the same as killing the entire world; sadly we get people like this, or the grooming scandals that keep popping up, to give fuel to the fire of nutcase racists like this http://www.barenakedislam.com/ The second shame is that because they didn't kill these guys on the spot, they are probably going to spend the rest of their lives locked up in Belmarsh prison on the British citizen's tax money with a bunch of other inmates who have also been arrested on their Jihad, or share these people's views. It's not exactly like they are going to pay for the rest of their life for this, sitting in prison reading the Qu-ran never having to worry about doing anything but passing time isn't exactly fair punishment. I mean there's a reason the British Empire was strongest at a time when the punishment for treason was to be hung, drawn and quartered. I bet there would be little to no repeats of this attack if we hung the quarters of these guys off the barbs of the Tower of London like Henry the 8th is still kicking! | ||
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KwarK
United States44074 Posts
On May 24 2013 10:21 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: I mean there's a reason the British Empire was strongest at a time when the punishment for treason was to be hung, drawn and quartered. You think the decline of empire is because we stopped hanging, drawing and quartering? Or that if we brought it back we'd get the empire back? What? | ||
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GaNgStaRR.ElV
Canada535 Posts
On May 24 2013 10:31 KwarK wrote: You think the decline of empire is because we stopped hanging, drawing and quartering? Or that if we brought it back we'd get the empire back? What? Just that we as Westerners invite violence and aggression against us because they know we are a soft society/target. Think about it, they believe in an "eye for an eye" kind of justice. These guys were "avenging" someone from a country they have no relation to. We aren't going to "avenge" this soldier, these guys WILL have a life to live, albeit one spent in the depths of prison....where all the other Islamist extremists who committed violent acts are locked up in this country. So they will be right at home... I was merely suggesting that if you knew the consequence of hacking a soldier's head off in the street was a long, painful and embarassing death, would you really be so quick to come to our countries with violent intent? | ||
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GaNgStaRR.ElV
Canada535 Posts
Meanwhile on the other side, there are people literally willing to render themselves into human shrapnel just so you don't make it home to your family. The more committed in war always wins, sadly I think despite all our technological advances we will never win this war, as we are too morally blocked to do what is necessary(which in my opinion, is to leave places like Syria/Afghanistan/Iraq to be the shitholes until their people decide to fix it themselves). | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On May 24 2013 10:39 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: Just that we as Westerners invite violence and aggression against us because they know we are a soft society/target. Think about it, they believe in an "eye for an eye" kind of justice. These guys were "avenging" someone from a country they have no relation to. We aren't going to "avenge" this soldier, these guys WILL have a life to live, albeit one spent in the depths of prison....where all the other Islamist extremists who committed violent acts are locked up in this country. So they will be right at home... I was merely suggesting that if you knew the consequence of hacking a soldier's head off in the street was a long, painful and embarassing death, would you really be so quick to come to our countries with violent intent? Aside from the fact that reinstating barbaric punishments for crimes is morally reprehensible and literally (yes) medieval, you're talking about a group of extremists that has no problem strapping bombs to its members and sending them out. Would there be fewer random attacks by extremists if the punishment was a slow, painful death? Probably, but the real fanatics out there probably wouldn't give a damn, just like they didn't give a damn when being hanged, drawn, and quartered was actually legal. What's the point of having some expansive empire if you sacrifice your integrity in the process? You'd have a whole lot of land with a bunch of blood-soaked oligarchs at the top. How exactly is that something to shoot for? | ||
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Jormundr
United States1678 Posts
On May 24 2013 10:39 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: Just that we as Westerners invite violence and aggression against us because they know we are a soft society/target. Think about it, they believe in an "eye for an eye" kind of justice. These guys were "avenging" someone from a country they have no relation to. We aren't going to "avenge" this soldier, these guys WILL have a life to live, albeit one spent in the depths of prison....where all the other Islamist extremists who committed violent acts are locked up in this country. So they will be right at home... I was merely suggesting that if you knew the consequence of hacking a soldier's head off in the street was a long, painful and embarassing death, would you really be so quick to come to our countries with violent intent? By your logic, this beheading is good. It teaches you why you shouldn't help the U.S. occupy other countries and murder their civilians. Oh sorry, I guess my language is a little bit harsh. It's not murder when it's sanctioned by a powerful government and you're wearing a uniform. | ||
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GaNgStaRR.ElV
Canada535 Posts
On May 24 2013 10:47 Shiori wrote: Aside from the fact that reinstating barbaric punishments for crimes is morally reprehensible and literally (yes) medieval, you're talking about a group of extremists that has no problem strapping bombs to its members and sending them out. Would there be fewer random attacks by extremists if the punishment was a slow, painful death? Probably, but the real fanatics out there probably wouldn't give a damn, just like they didn't give a damn when being hanged, drawn, and quartered was actually legal. What's the point of having some expansive empire if you sacrifice your integrity in the process? You'd have a whole lot of land with a bunch of blood-soaked oligarchs at the top. How exactly is that something to shoot for? I'm not saying that the British empire needs to return jesus man. I'm just saying that life in prison is not exactly a daunting punishment for these kinds of people. And yes the threat of painful, excruciating and horrific death are probably more off-putting than 60 years in a 6x6 box where you get meals fed to you, a shower every day, Dreamcast in your cell, and a bunch of other extremists to talk about how great Allah is. Should HDQ really come back? Probably not it is medieval. Am I using it as a metaphor for capital punishment that you seem to be missing out on? yes. | ||
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Kisra
United Kingdom466 Posts
On May 24 2013 10:39 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: Just that we as Westerners invite violence and aggression against us because they know we are a soft society/target. Think about it, they believe in an "eye for an eye" kind of justice. These guys were "avenging" someone from a country they have no relation to. We aren't going to "avenge" this soldier, these guys WILL have a life to live, albeit one spent in the depths of prison....where all the other Islamist extremists who committed violent acts are locked up in this country. So they will be right at home... I was merely suggesting that if you knew the consequence of hacking a soldier's head off in the street was a long, painful and embarassing death, would you really be so quick to come to our countries with violent intent? And then one day the judgement is wrong and it opens the door to all kinds of backlash. We don't invite this kind of thing by having a justice system that does not rely on the death penalty. It's an entire can of worms to get into the discussion but the reality is this; this country will not invoke the death penalty unless something seriously screwed up happens. In this case, it becomes revenge, not justice, and it becomes martyrdom - the government is so scared of these people they have to kill them! No. We ask them why, we find out their motives, we understand why they're wrong (let's behead a soldier for wars the UK isn't involved in any more - or for operations to set up policing and stable government in another country so random people _can't_ go around beheading others, the horror!), and then we lock them away. The wheels of justice turn, they are forgotten, their message is forgotten, because it is the childish screams of the ignorant extremist. If he wants political change, we have ways of doing that. All this attack has done is radicalise further. It's the same in Sweden. The UK has been exposed to terrorism before, several times, by people bigger and scarier than these two people. And we'll deal with them in the way we deal with everyone, because that is the way a fair country operates. Only a psychotic one deals in revenge. The British Empire was not built on hanging. It was built on powerful military backed with logistics and trade. On things like law and structure. We maintain a commonwealth because we believe in things like law and structure. It'll take more than these chucklefucks to ruffle us. | ||
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GaNgStaRR.ElV
Canada535 Posts
On May 24 2013 10:49 Jormundr wrote: By your logic, this beheading is good. It teaches you why you shouldn't help the U.S. occupy other countries and murder their civilians. Oh sorry, I guess my language is a little bit harsh. It's not murder when it's sanctioned by a powerful government and you're wearing a uniform. um. This is London keep your anti-American sentiments to yourself please, there is no place for this. Murdering civilians? I'm pretty sure there isn't much "murdering civilians" going on in the British Armed Forces, that's more a US/Iraq kind of thing. Yes there are casualties of war but the UK is LEAVING Afghanistan. If you really think we should have just let the Taliban say to the US "Yeah Osama is here, but we aren't going to do shit about it, because he is the same as us and you aren't" after he had just organized the slaughter of 2700 people in one day, well then hope for you is lost frankly. My viewpoint on the foreign occupation in Afghanistan is that their country is a desolate wasteland that can't be controlled, not even by them. Let them have their Taliban country(which is what is going to happen the SECOND we pull out), but there needs to be consequences for aggression, appeasement should not be an option. And I would not describe a single sanctioned action that the UK or Canadian government has done in Iraq/Afghanistan as on the level of hacking to death an innocent soldier in broad daylight in one of London's more populous burroughs. If there are civilian casualties in Afghan, Iraq or whatever other country you want to bring up it's because these horrible people like to hide behind innocents so that when we accidentally kill them they make us look like the monsters. Good job falling for the oldest propoganda trick in the book.... PS you do realize it will probably cost everyone on this board money out of our paycheck to keep these guys alive in prison for the rest of their lives right? how does that make you feel? I don't like capital punishment for other crimes, even things like serial killers or paedophiles as I think that is a psychological disease, but in terms of terrorism/treason and the mass killing or attempted killing of innocent civilians, the punishment does indeed fit the crime. Besides we are in a bloody recession with a chock-a-block prison system; why not make cuts to prison funds rather than education. Am I the only one who gets violently angry when these things happen because I feel like nothing is being done about it? That we are pussy-footing in a violent man's world, trying to pretend that human beings aren't warloving parasites who consume everything we can from an area than expand to others for new resources? | ||
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Kisra
United Kingdom466 Posts
On May 24 2013 10:57 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: um. This is London keep your anti-American sentiments to yourself please, there is no place for this. Murdering civilians? I'm pretty sure there isn't much "murdering civilians" going on in the British Armed Forces, that's more a US/Iraq kind of thing. Yes there are casualties of war but the UK is LEAVING Afghanistan. If you really think we should have just let the Taliban say to the US "Yeah Osama is here, but we aren't going to do shit about it, because he is the same as us and you aren't" after he had just organized the slaughter of 2700 people in one day, well then hope for you is lost frankly. My viewpoint on the foreign occupation in Afghanistan is that their country is a desolate wasteland that can't be controlled, not even by them. Let them have their Taliban country(which is what is going to happen the SECOND we pull out), but there needs to be consequences for aggression, appeasement should not be an option. And I would not describe a single sanctioned action that the UK or Canadian government has done in Iraq/Afghanistan as on the level of hacking to death an innocent soldier in broad daylight in one of London's more populous burroughs. If there are civilian casualties in Afghan, Iraq or whatever other country you want to bring up it's because these horrible people like to hide behind innocents so that when we accidentally kill them they make us look like the monsters. Good job falling for the oldest propoganda trick in the book.... You seemed to have missed his point. An execution of these terrorists as an 'example' is no different to exactly what they just did; murdered a soldier for 'crimes' to try and send a message. How well do you think that message was sent? To them, it won't be justice. It will be "We have an excuse to kill Muslims!" and just cause further radicalisation. By employing our justice system and have it all be in the sunny light of day there is no way someone can say we did anything unfairly. They get no special treatment; they committed murder, they enter the justice system. | ||
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GaNgStaRR.ElV
Canada535 Posts
On May 24 2013 11:02 Kisra wrote: You seemed to have missed his point. An execution of these terrorists as an 'example' is no different to exactly what they just did; murdered a soldier for 'crimes' to try and send a message. How well do you think that message was sent? To them, it won't be justice. It will be "We have an excuse to kill Muslims!" and just cause further radicalisation. By employing our justice system and have it all be in the sunny light of day there is no way someone can say we did anything unfairly. They get no special treatment; they committed murder, they enter the justice system. Ok but by committing murder and by costing taxpayer money in a economic climate where we need every pound saved that we can, they will be continuing their Jihad well into their 80s. Do you miss that point? It's not about examples or anything like that, it's about sheer economics and common survival sense. The government is the shepherds trying to protect us(the sheep). These guys are wolves. Well right now the wolves have sharp teeth and the sheep are calling for the shepherds to be more humane with how they treat the wolves, at the same time that the amount of wolves circling us is just getting bigger and bigger, while the shepherds are going to increasingly be running out of the resources required to keep the wolves at bay. I'd rather we kill 2 terrorists, save ourselves the roughly 600k/terrorist it will cost to give them food, water, sheets, clothes, power and heat for the rest of their lives, and use that money to pay the national debt and put some other underprivileged UK Muslims through college so that we can get rid of ignorant, disenfranchised peoples. And the difference between what these two boys did, and what I'm proposing? They actually committed a crime, on tape, admitted to it, on tape, were videotaped and had multiple witnesses doing it. That soldier is paying for crimes that no one can actually say he was even involved in, short of being a patriot. Rest In Peace Drummer Boy. | ||
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