Please attempt to distinguish between extremists and non extremists to avoid starting the inevitable waste of time that is "can Islam be judged by its believers?" - KwarK
On May 24 2013 10:21 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: I mean there's a reason the British Empire was strongest at a time when the punishment for treason was to be hung, drawn and quartered.
You think the decline of empire is because we stopped hanging, drawing and quartering? Or that if we brought it back we'd get the empire back? What?
Just that we as Westerners invite violence and aggression against us because they know we are a soft society/target. Think about it, they believe in an "eye for an eye" kind of justice. These guys were "avenging" someone from a country they have no relation to. We aren't going to "avenge" this soldier, these guys WILL have a life to live, albeit one spent in the depths of prison....where all the other Islamist extremists who committed violent acts are locked up in this country. So they will be right at home...
I was merely suggesting that if you knew the consequence of hacking a soldier's head off in the street was a long, painful and embarassing death, would you really be so quick to come to our countries with violent intent?
By your logic, this beheading is good. It teaches you why you shouldn't help the U.S. occupy other countries and murder their civilians.
Oh sorry, I guess my language is a little bit harsh. It's not murder when it's sanctioned by a powerful government and you're wearing a uniform.
um. This is London keep your anti-American sentiments to yourself please, there is no place for this.
Murdering civilians? I'm pretty sure there isn't much "murdering civilians" going on in the British Armed Forces, that's more a US/Iraq kind of thing. Yes there are casualties of war but the UK is LEAVING Afghanistan. If you really think we should have just let the Taliban say to the US "Yeah Osama is here, but we aren't going to do shit about it, because he is the same as us and you aren't" after he had just organized the slaughter of 2700 people in one day, well then hope for you is lost frankly.
My viewpoint on the foreign occupation in Afghanistan is that their country is a desolate wasteland that can't be controlled, not even by them. Let them have their Taliban country(which is what is going to happen the SECOND we pull out), but there needs to be consequences for aggression, appeasement should not be an option.
And I would not describe a single sanctioned action that the UK or Canadian government has done in Iraq/Afghanistan as on the level of hacking to death an innocent soldier in broad daylight in one of London's more populous burroughs. If there are civilian casualties in Afghan, Iraq or whatever other country you want to bring up it's because these horrible people like to hide behind innocents so that when we accidentally kill them they make us look like the monsters. Good job falling for the oldest propoganda trick in the book....
You seemed to have missed his point.
An execution of these terrorists as an 'example' is no different to exactly what they just did; murdered a soldier for 'crimes' to try and send a message. How well do you think that message was sent?
To them, it won't be justice. It will be "We have an excuse to kill Muslims!" and just cause further radicalisation. By employing our justice system and have it all be in the sunny light of day there is no way someone can say we did anything unfairly. They get no special treatment; they committed murder, they enter the justice system.
Ok but by committing murder and by costing taxpayer money in a economic climate where we need every pound saved that we can, they will be continuing their Jihad well into their 80s. Do you miss that point? It's not about examples or anything like that, it's about sheer economics and common survival sense. The government is the shepherds trying to protect us(the sheep). These guys are wolves. Well right now the wolves have sharp teeth and the sheep are calling for the shepherds to be more humane with how they treat the wolves, at the same time that the amount of wolves circling us is just getting bigger and bigger, while the shepherds are going to increasingly be running out of the resources required to keep the wolves at bay.
I'd rather we kill 2 terrorists, save ourselves the roughly 600k/terrorist it will cost to give them food, water, sheets, clothes, power and heat for the rest of their lives, and use that money to pay the national debt and put some other underprivileged UK Muslims through college so that we can get rid of ignorant, disenfranchised peoples.
Let's shuffle people over 90 off too. They aren't going to contribute anything meaningful. Just draining society away when we can be using that to pay for education and roads. Why not make it 80 and get rid of student fees - burn 'em we can use the heat generated to warm the homes of the other elderly!
As much as I hate to strawman, bringing economics into this (by the way, our 'hard times' are no way near that rough) is a false move though. We'd probably make more through military cutbacks like these guys were preaching than any change to the judicial system.
You seem to think the Jihad threat is some giant, looming shadow that is just waiting to blast us all away. Do you know how to break a threat like that? It isn't reactionary execution. To use a Starcraft analogy, that's like killing off a bunch of banelings while he's taking a fourth and fifth base with another pack on the way. You start killing them, they start becoming real martyrs, and they start preaching it as an institution of murder. Instead you go to their base, and cripple their econ. How'd we do that? Setting up a government in their country, setting up a police force in their country.
Putting these guys in prison isn't dooming us to some swarm from the depths of the Middle East. We're not defenseless, nor are we just rolling over. At most this will just make our counter-intelligence all the stricter (these guys were known about previously but deemed not a risk, so someone missed something). You certainly aren't going to save the economy introducing a death sentence, nor will it have a dramatic decrease in terrorism. These lunatics aren't the type to fear death. 25 years in a prison is not going to be rosy for them.
But, I'm done discussing for now. What you're writing reads like Daily Mail doomsaying.
Well GaNgStaRR.ElV, from what you've posted I can definitely see how you came about those FB friends of yours you had to 'purge'. I mean, I had read most of your post happily nodding along and then suddenly bam!
On May 24 2013 10:21 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: The second shame is that because they didn't kill these guys on the spot, they are probably going to spend the rest of their lives locked up in Belmarsh prison on the British citizen's tax money with a bunch of other inmates who have also been arrested on their Jihad, or share these people's views. It's not exactly like they are going to pay for the rest of their life for this, sitting in prison reading the Qu-ran never having to worry about doing anything but passing time isn't exactly fair punishment.
I mean there's a reason the British Empire was strongest at a time when the punishment for treason was to be hung, drawn and quartered. I bet there would be little to no repeats of this attack if we hung the quarters of these guys off the barbs of the Tower of London like Henry the 8th is still kicking!
The rare breed of the thoughtful anti-nationalist who also thinks fondly of the time people were hung and quartered!
On May 24 2013 10:21 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: I mean there's a reason the British Empire was strongest at a time when the punishment for treason was to be hung, drawn and quartered.
You think the decline of empire is because we stopped hanging, drawing and quartering? Or that if we brought it back we'd get the empire back? What?
Just that we as Westerners invite violence and aggression against us because they know we are a soft society/target. Think about it, they believe in an "eye for an eye" kind of justice. These guys were "avenging" someone from a country they have no relation to. We aren't going to "avenge" this soldier, these guys WILL have a life to live, albeit one spent in the depths of prison....where all the other Islamist extremists who committed violent acts are locked up in this country. So they will be right at home...
I was merely suggesting that if you knew the consequence of hacking a soldier's head off in the street was a long, painful and embarassing death, would you really be so quick to come to our countries with violent intent?
By your logic, this beheading is good. It teaches you why you shouldn't help the U.S. occupy other countries and murder their civilians.
Oh sorry, I guess my language is a little bit harsh. It's not murder when it's sanctioned by a powerful government and you're wearing a uniform.
um. This is London keep your anti-American sentiments to yourself please, there is no place for this.
Murdering civilians? I'm pretty sure there isn't much "murdering civilians" going on in the British Armed Forces, that's more a US/Iraq kind of thing. Yes there are casualties of war but the UK is LEAVING Afghanistan. If you really think we should have just let the Taliban say to the US "Yeah Osama is here, but we aren't going to do shit about it, because he is the same as us and you aren't" after he had just organized the slaughter of 2700 people in one day, well then hope for you is lost frankly.
My viewpoint on the foreign occupation in Afghanistan is that their country is a desolate wasteland that can't be controlled, not even by them. Let them have their Taliban country(which is what is going to happen the SECOND we pull out), but there needs to be consequences for aggression, appeasement should not be an option.
And I would not describe a single sanctioned action that the UK or Canadian government has done in Iraq/Afghanistan as on the level of hacking to death an innocent soldier in broad daylight in one of London's more populous burroughs. If there are civilian casualties in Afghan, Iraq or whatever other country you want to bring up it's because these horrible people like to hide behind innocents so that when we accidentally kill them they make us look like the monsters. Good job falling for the oldest propoganda trick in the book....
You seemed to have missed his point.
An execution of these terrorists as an 'example' is no different to exactly what they just did; murdered a soldier for 'crimes' to try and send a message. How well do you think that message was sent?
To them, it won't be justice. It will be "We have an excuse to kill Muslims!" and just cause further radicalisation. By employing our justice system and have it all be in the sunny light of day there is no way someone can say we did anything unfairly. They get no special treatment; they committed murder, they enter the justice system.
Ok but by committing murder and by costing taxpayer money in a economic climate where we need every pound saved that we can, they will be continuing their Jihad well into their 80s. Do you miss that point? It's not about examples or anything like that, it's about sheer economics and common survival sense. The government is the shepherds trying to protect us(the sheep). These guys are wolves. Well right now the wolves have sharp teeth and the sheep are calling for the shepherds to be more humane with how they treat the wolves, at the same time that the amount of wolves circling us is just getting bigger and bigger, while the shepherds are going to increasingly be running out of the resources required to keep the wolves at bay.
I'd rather we kill 2 terrorists, save ourselves the roughly 600k/terrorist it will cost to give them food, water, sheets, clothes, power and heat for the rest of their lives, and use that money to pay the national debt and put some other underprivileged UK Muslims through college so that we can get rid of ignorant, disenfranchised peoples.
Let's shuffle people over 90 off too. They aren't going to contribute anything meaningful. Just draining society away when we can be using that to pay for education and roads. Why not make it 80 and get rid of student fees - burn 'em we can use the heat generated to warm the homes of the other elderly!
As much as I hate to strawman, bringing economics into this (by the way, our 'hard times' are no way near that rough) is a false move though. We'd probably make more through military cutbacks like these guys were preaching than any change to the judicial system.
You seem to think the Jihad threat is some giant, looming shadow that is just waiting to blast us all away. Do you know how to break a threat like that? It isn't reactionary execution. To use a Starcraft analogy, that's like killing off a bunch of banelings while he's taking a fourth and fifth base with another pack on the way. You start killing them, they start becoming real martyrs, and they start preaching it as an institution of murder. Instead you go to their base, and cripple their econ. How'd we do that? Setting up a government in their country, setting up a police force in their country.
Putting these guys in prison isn't dooming us to some swarm from the depths of the Middle East. We're not defenseless, nor are we just rolling over. At most this will just make our counter-intelligence all the stricter (these guys were known about previously but deemed not a risk, so someone missed something). You certainly aren't going to save the economy introducing a death sentence, nor will it have a dramatic decrease in terrorism. These lunatics aren't the type to fear death. 25 years in a prison is not going to be rosy for them.
But, I'm done discussing for now. What you're writing reads like Daily Mail doomsaying.
A friend of mine spent a year in Belmarsh prison and I can assure you there are plenty of extremist Islamists to make sure that these guys don't get killed or abused in prison. They will probably be hailed as kings.
And I don't see how you can compare innocent grannies over 90 to (soon to be) convicted terrorists. Like are you high or something when you can up with this?
You think we are setting up a police force in Afghanistan? And you really think that when we leave they are going to keep prosecuting Taliban criminals? Maybe for the few months it takes for them to re-establish their power on the back of fear tactics.
Yeah, wow we really did a great job there. They took to our democratic ways like flies on shit huh? I give it 5 years before their "democratic system" is either completely toppled or the corruption gets to the point that they have Egyptian elections. But atleast we hung Saddam and "martyred" him....
How the hell will killing these 2 guys now martyr them anymore than they already have martyred themselves?
Crippling their econ? Every time a heroin dealer sells to some junkie, you are probably indirectly putting money in the hands of the Taliban, or depending on what you believe, the US Government( I mean they don't even burn down the poppy fields anymore because the farmers will starve).
It's our econ thats crippled not theirs. There is not a huge amount of growth left to be done, we've already exploited the hell out of third world countries(probably one reason these guys hate us, we went there for their oil, made a bunch of sheiks rich, who then proceeded to enslave their people's with their vast riches, which we were more than happy to go along with so long as they kept providing oil at a premium rate).
You say our counter-intelligence will get stricter. According to a government official there are roughly 1000 people right now on a counter-terrorist watch list. To follow them around more and increase the scrutiny requires what exactly? Oh yeah that's right, money we don't have. Guess we can continue to cut-back on the NHS and other essential life necessities like education, public transport. I mean have you seen English roads, they are a bloody joke, that's going to cost billions we don't have on it's own.
But at the fundamental root of it is probably the fact that you are opposed to the death penalty, whereas if I was that cop who confronted these guys I would have done my part to add 2 completely justifiable homicides to the list of crimes committed yesterday, by putting 2 slugs through each of their brains. Save us the legal fees and the effort needed to "investigate" a sure thing. Because yes these guys will get a defence attorney each, and that's why you see a line of 10 cops scanning the streets for "evidence" when we know who did what. We had to pay for those cops to do that you know. We also had to pay for a the day-long forensic evidence gathering at the scene. That's cop time that could have been used chasing down other criminals, it's detective time that could have been used to solve some of the other violent crimes that have been occuring in London.
But hey as long as we come across as the peaceful, more tolerant society it will all work out right? Is there any historical evidence to suggest that is the right course of action? Because like I said, the British Empire stayed so big for so long, not based off "trade", but based off the fact that you knew if you rebelled, they would destroy you and everything you held dear. Obviously that is way too medieval for now, but being a pacifist and encouraging appeasement is only going to lead to problems in the future. Ask Chamberlain.
On May 24 2013 11:22 Taguchi wrote: Well GaNgStaRR.ElV, from what you've posted I can definitely see how you came about those FB friends of yours you had to 'purge'. I mean, I had read most of your post happily nodding along and then suddenly bam!
On May 24 2013 10:21 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: The second shame is that because they didn't kill these guys on the spot, they are probably going to spend the rest of their lives locked up in Belmarsh prison on the British citizen's tax money with a bunch of other inmates who have also been arrested on their Jihad, or share these people's views. It's not exactly like they are going to pay for the rest of their life for this, sitting in prison reading the Qu-ran never having to worry about doing anything but passing time isn't exactly fair punishment.
I mean there's a reason the British Empire was strongest at a time when the punishment for treason was to be hung, drawn and quartered. I bet there would be little to no repeats of this attack if we hung the quarters of these guys off the barbs of the Tower of London like Henry the 8th is still kicking!
The rare breed of the thoughtful anti-nationalist who also thinks fondly of the time people were hung and quartered!
You definately missed the point of the HDQ reference buddy. I am merely inferring that we are too much of a pacifist society, denying our "fight or flight" animal instincts to the point that it bites us in the ass.
But it's ok a lot of people seem to have made the same mistake you did.
Also I would love for you to point out the bit where I bent the truth about the rest of their lives. Ok maybe they will spend some time in solitary(I'm not sure how that works in the UK aside from guys like Bronson). But they won't be denied access to basic life necessities, or denied the right to pray or read their holy book.
PS. Why the hell would I think kindly of that? I have Irish ancestors who suffered that fate at the hands of disgustingly autocratic kings, part of the reason that side of my family left for Canada in the 16th century. The other side of my family left an autocratic Normandy in the 16th century and ended up being one of the founding families of Quebec. I just think sometimes people need to man up and realize we live in a VERY violent world, not the Disney channel.
On May 24 2013 11:22 Taguchi wrote: Well GaNgStaRR.ElV, from what you've posted I can definitely see how you came about those FB friends of yours you had to 'purge'. I mean, I had read most of your post happily nodding along and then suddenly bam!
On May 24 2013 10:21 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: The second shame is that because they didn't kill these guys on the spot, they are probably going to spend the rest of their lives locked up in Belmarsh prison on the British citizen's tax money with a bunch of other inmates who have also been arrested on their Jihad, or share these people's views. It's not exactly like they are going to pay for the rest of their life for this, sitting in prison reading the Qu-ran never having to worry about doing anything but passing time isn't exactly fair punishment.
I mean there's a reason the British Empire was strongest at a time when the punishment for treason was to be hung, drawn and quartered. I bet there would be little to no repeats of this attack if we hung the quarters of these guys off the barbs of the Tower of London like Henry the 8th is still kicking!
The rare breed of the thoughtful anti-nationalist who also thinks fondly of the time people were hung and quartered!
You definately missed the point of the HDQ reference buddy. I am merely inferring that we are too much of a pacifist society, denying our "fight or flight" animal instincts to the point that it bites us in the ass.
But it's ok a lot of people seem to have made the same mistake you did.
PS. Why the hell would I think kindly of that? I have Irish ancestors who suffered that fate at the hands of disgustingly autocratic kings. I just think sometimes people need to man up and realize we live in a VERY violent world, not the Disney channel.
On May 24 2013 11:22 Taguchi wrote: Well GaNgStaRR.ElV, from what you've posted I can definitely see how you came about those FB friends of yours you had to 'purge'. I mean, I had read most of your post happily nodding along and then suddenly bam!
On May 24 2013 10:21 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: The second shame is that because they didn't kill these guys on the spot, they are probably going to spend the rest of their lives locked up in Belmarsh prison on the British citizen's tax money with a bunch of other inmates who have also been arrested on their Jihad, or share these people's views. It's not exactly like they are going to pay for the rest of their life for this, sitting in prison reading the Qu-ran never having to worry about doing anything but passing time isn't exactly fair punishment.
I mean there's a reason the British Empire was strongest at a time when the punishment for treason was to be hung, drawn and quartered. I bet there would be little to no repeats of this attack if we hung the quarters of these guys off the barbs of the Tower of London like Henry the 8th is still kicking!
The rare breed of the thoughtful anti-nationalist who also thinks fondly of the time people were hung and quartered!
You definately missed the point of the HDQ reference buddy. I am merely inferring that we are too much of a pacifist society, denying our "fight or flight" animal instincts to the point that it bites us in the ass.
But it's ok a lot of people seem to have made the same mistake you did.
PS. Why the hell would I think kindly of that? I have Irish ancestors who suffered that fate at the hands of disgustingly autocratic kings. I just think sometimes people need to man up and realize we live in a VERY violent world, not the Disney channel.
So more violence will solve our problems?
When it can be jusitified(self-defence, stopping known destructive entities such as Hitler and Osama Bin Laden)? Yes.
Do I want us to drone-strike the hell out of Nigeria because these guys are of Nigerian heritage? No
Do I believe in the death penalty after a fair and reasonable trial? Yes
God bless the USA for not giving up on that last one.
On May 24 2013 11:22 Taguchi wrote: Well GaNgStaRR.ElV, from what you've posted I can definitely see how you came about those FB friends of yours you had to 'purge'. I mean, I had read most of your post happily nodding along and then suddenly bam!
On May 24 2013 10:21 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: The second shame is that because they didn't kill these guys on the spot, they are probably going to spend the rest of their lives locked up in Belmarsh prison on the British citizen's tax money with a bunch of other inmates who have also been arrested on their Jihad, or share these people's views. It's not exactly like they are going to pay for the rest of their life for this, sitting in prison reading the Qu-ran never having to worry about doing anything but passing time isn't exactly fair punishment.
I mean there's a reason the British Empire was strongest at a time when the punishment for treason was to be hung, drawn and quartered. I bet there would be little to no repeats of this attack if we hung the quarters of these guys off the barbs of the Tower of London like Henry the 8th is still kicking!
The rare breed of the thoughtful anti-nationalist who also thinks fondly of the time people were hung and quartered!
You definately missed the point of the HDQ reference buddy. I am merely inferring that we are too much of a pacifist society, denying our "fight or flight" animal instincts to the point that it bites us in the ass.
But it's ok a lot of people seem to have made the same mistake you did.
PS. Why the hell would I think kindly of that? I have Irish ancestors who suffered that fate at the hands of disgustingly autocratic kings. I just think sometimes people need to man up and realize we live in a VERY violent world, not the Disney channel.
So more violence will solve our problems?
When it can be jusitified(self-defence)? Yes.
Do I want us to drone-strike the hell out of Nigeria because these guys are of Nigerian heritage? No
Do I believe in the death penalty after a fair and reasonable trial? Yes
God bless the USA for not giving up on that last one.
But you was talking about torturing and killing them without a whimp.
On May 24 2013 11:22 Taguchi wrote: Well GaNgStaRR.ElV, from what you've posted I can definitely see how you came about those FB friends of yours you had to 'purge'. I mean, I had read most of your post happily nodding along and then suddenly bam!
On May 24 2013 10:21 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: The second shame is that because they didn't kill these guys on the spot, they are probably going to spend the rest of their lives locked up in Belmarsh prison on the British citizen's tax money with a bunch of other inmates who have also been arrested on their Jihad, or share these people's views. It's not exactly like they are going to pay for the rest of their life for this, sitting in prison reading the Qu-ran never having to worry about doing anything but passing time isn't exactly fair punishment.
I mean there's a reason the British Empire was strongest at a time when the punishment for treason was to be hung, drawn and quartered. I bet there would be little to no repeats of this attack if we hung the quarters of these guys off the barbs of the Tower of London like Henry the 8th is still kicking!
The rare breed of the thoughtful anti-nationalist who also thinks fondly of the time people were hung and quartered!
You definately missed the point of the HDQ reference buddy. I am merely inferring that we are too much of a pacifist society, denying our "fight or flight" animal instincts to the point that it bites us in the ass.
But it's ok a lot of people seem to have made the same mistake you did.
PS. Why the hell would I think kindly of that? I have Irish ancestors who suffered that fate at the hands of disgustingly autocratic kings. I just think sometimes people need to man up and realize we live in a VERY violent world, not the Disney channel.
So more violence will solve our problems?
When it can be jusitified(self-defence)? Yes.
Do I want us to drone-strike the hell out of Nigeria because these guys are of Nigerian heritage? No
Do I believe in the death penalty after a fair and reasonable trial? Yes
God bless the USA for not giving up on that last one.
But you was talking about torturing and killing them without a whimp.
You literally have no room for METAPHOR or the slightest splash of sensationalism.
I just said we should have a death penalty so we don't have to pay to keep them alive and to remind the world that when you mass-murder us, you won't be treated softly for it.
is the lethal injection that inhumane?
And "without a whimp"? No they get their day in court thanks to Mrs. RoboCop. But we all know they did it. Do you deny that? Therefore I can confidently say YES, I do think they deserve to die. Maybe not brutally, as again I don't think anyone wants the Middle Ages to return(when Christianity was on the level of barbarity that certain branches of Islam such as the Wahhabi sect are showing now) but certainly deserve to die a billion times more than that poor soldier did.
Answer me this; is it fair that the cleric these guys looked up to and supported advocating beheading us as part of their Jihad while living in this country, we threw him out the country, thought we had taken care of it. Now this happens. Don't you think if we had throughly investigated his organization when he made these threats and arrested him for advocating violence we maybe could have prevented this?
Who cares if that guys motive was politically or religiously focused? Personally I care not of someone's message if they have to send it through hacking someone's head off. Maybe that's a childish way of thinking on my part, but there are better ways to communicate what he wanted to say, and I wish him fiery flames of hell.
Also, I commend you for your patience, Kwark. Been following these 40 pages and I'm surprised your head hasn't popped yet from having to reiterate your points and belief's over and over again lol.
On May 24 2013 11:22 Taguchi wrote: Well GaNgStaRR.ElV, from what you've posted I can definitely see how you came about those FB friends of yours you had to 'purge'. I mean, I had read most of your post happily nodding along and then suddenly bam!
On May 24 2013 10:21 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: The second shame is that because they didn't kill these guys on the spot, they are probably going to spend the rest of their lives locked up in Belmarsh prison on the British citizen's tax money with a bunch of other inmates who have also been arrested on their Jihad, or share these people's views. It's not exactly like they are going to pay for the rest of their life for this, sitting in prison reading the Qu-ran never having to worry about doing anything but passing time isn't exactly fair punishment.
I mean there's a reason the British Empire was strongest at a time when the punishment for treason was to be hung, drawn and quartered. I bet there would be little to no repeats of this attack if we hung the quarters of these guys off the barbs of the Tower of London like Henry the 8th is still kicking!
The rare breed of the thoughtful anti-nationalist who also thinks fondly of the time people were hung and quartered!
You definately missed the point of the HDQ reference buddy. I am merely inferring that we are too much of a pacifist society, denying our "fight or flight" animal instincts to the point that it bites us in the ass.
But it's ok a lot of people seem to have made the same mistake you did.
PS. Why the hell would I think kindly of that? I have Irish ancestors who suffered that fate at the hands of disgustingly autocratic kings. I just think sometimes people need to man up and realize we live in a VERY violent world, not the Disney channel.
So more violence will solve our problems?
When it can be jusitified(self-defence)? Yes.
Do I want us to drone-strike the hell out of Nigeria because these guys are of Nigerian heritage? No
Do I believe in the death penalty after a fair and reasonable trial? Yes
God bless the USA for not giving up on that last one.
But you was talking about torturing and killing them without a whimp.
You literally have no room for METAPHOR or the slightest splash of sensationalism.
I just said we should have a death penalty so we don't have to pay to keep them alive and to remind the world that when you mass-murder us, you won't be treated softly for it.
is the lethal injection that inhumane?
And "without a whimp"? No they get their day in court thanks to Mrs. RoboCop. But we all know they did it. Do you deny that? Therefore I can confidently say YES, I do think they deserve to die. Maybe not brutally, as again I don't think anyone wants the Middle Ages to return(when Christianity was on the level of barbarity that certain branches of Islam such as the Wahhabi sect are showing now) but certainly deserve to die a billion times more than that poor soldier did.
I have all room i want for metaphors because you´re mixing personal feelings with a objective ethical axiom about how our society should work.
And yes death penalty is barbaric and the moment the goverment kill just 1 innocent person the whole system is a big failor. The goverment murdered a innocent person, it´s a murder and by law you sentence murder to death. A paradox. Not even speaking about ethics then...
Our peacefull society has it´s price. Paying tax and the goverment investing this money for jails and food is one of them. A price i pay happily. If you´re so upset with this situation there are countrys that could be interesting for you.
On May 24 2013 12:00 Kamais Ookin wrote: Who cares if that guys motive was politically or religiously focused? Personally I care not of someone's message if they have to send it through hacking someone's head off. Maybe that's a childish way of thinking on my part, but there are better ways to communicate what he wanted to say, and I wish him fiery flames of hell.
Also, I commend you for your patience, Kwark. Been following these 40 pages and I'm surprised your head hasn't popped yet from having to reiterate your points and belief's over and over again lol.
I'm guessing Kwark is a Muslim by your post?
If there's people who have been posting against Islam that saddens me too, because I know a lot of real hard-working Muslims who wouldn't hurt a fly, who came to Canada/UK and fully embraced their new culture without sacrificing their religious beliefs, and have thus prospered.
It's knowing those people and knowing that their story is being shat on by those FB people I was referring to, when I wake up to comments like "EDL get all the fucking mosques in thamesmead, if you dont want to fllow our rules GTFO".
These 2 guys were born into these rules and were probably manipulated into their new-found extemist beliefs by a search for themselves/the need to belong. Disenfranchised youths do have a tendency to do extradinarily stupid things, just ask the London rioters.
On May 24 2013 11:22 Taguchi wrote: Well GaNgStaRR.ElV, from what you've posted I can definitely see how you came about those FB friends of yours you had to 'purge'. I mean, I had read most of your post happily nodding along and then suddenly bam!
On May 24 2013 10:21 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: The second shame is that because they didn't kill these guys on the spot, they are probably going to spend the rest of their lives locked up in Belmarsh prison on the British citizen's tax money with a bunch of other inmates who have also been arrested on their Jihad, or share these people's views. It's not exactly like they are going to pay for the rest of their life for this, sitting in prison reading the Qu-ran never having to worry about doing anything but passing time isn't exactly fair punishment.
I mean there's a reason the British Empire was strongest at a time when the punishment for treason was to be hung, drawn and quartered. I bet there would be little to no repeats of this attack if we hung the quarters of these guys off the barbs of the Tower of London like Henry the 8th is still kicking!
The rare breed of the thoughtful anti-nationalist who also thinks fondly of the time people were hung and quartered!
You definately missed the point of the HDQ reference buddy. I am merely inferring that we are too much of a pacifist society, denying our "fight or flight" animal instincts to the point that it bites us in the ass.
But it's ok a lot of people seem to have made the same mistake you did.
PS. Why the hell would I think kindly of that? I have Irish ancestors who suffered that fate at the hands of disgustingly autocratic kings. I just think sometimes people need to man up and realize we live in a VERY violent world, not the Disney channel.
So more violence will solve our problems?
When it can be jusitified(self-defence)? Yes.
Do I want us to drone-strike the hell out of Nigeria because these guys are of Nigerian heritage? No
Do I believe in the death penalty after a fair and reasonable trial? Yes
God bless the USA for not giving up on that last one.
But you was talking about torturing and killing them without a whimp.
You literally have no room for METAPHOR or the slightest splash of sensationalism.
I just said we should have a death penalty so we don't have to pay to keep them alive and to remind the world that when you mass-murder us, you won't be treated softly for it.
is the lethal injection that inhumane?
And "without a whimp"? No they get their day in court thanks to Mrs. RoboCop. But we all know they did it. Do you deny that? Therefore I can confidently say YES, I do think they deserve to die. Maybe not brutally, as again I don't think anyone wants the Middle Ages to return(when Christianity was on the level of barbarity that certain branches of Islam such as the Wahhabi sect are showing now) but certainly deserve to die a billion times more than that poor soldier did.
I have all room i want for metaphors because you´re mixing personal feelings with a objective ethical axiom about how our society should work.
And yes death penalty is barbaric and the moment the goverment kill just 1 innocent person the whole system is a big failor. The goverment murdered a innocent person, it´s a murder and by law you sentence murder to death. A paradox. Not even speaking about ethics then...
Our peacefull society has it´s price. Paying tax and the goverment investing this money for jails and food is one of them. A price i pay happily. If you´re so upset with this situation there are countrys that could be interesting for you.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree then.
I have no problem with death or with the idea of having to take someone's life in the name of peace, I don't see it as a paradox, but as nature's one basic necessity. Even though it's illegal in this country, if an intruder broke into my home tonight and threatened my family, I would happily bury the broken shaft of a hockey stick through their heart then stick around to figure out if they meant the threats they implied, even if it meant I had to do a bid for manslaughter.
I think people like you who consider something like the death penalty "barbaric", are simply out of touch with the fact that beyond this "civilized" ethos we have built up in our minds, we are animals in a war of survival of the fittest, every day.
The difference is that for 1000s of years our only predators are ourselves, and in the last 200 this is slowly transforming so that the way we "prey" on each other, rather than a life-or-death fight, is a "let's see who can be more successful/make more money/be more famous", which leads people to forget that there are people in other parts of the world who think nothing of taking human life, and that there is no reasoning with someone like that, there is merely being the fittest in order to guarantee surivival.
Edit: didnt see your bit about "innocents". Don't see how that's relevant. Sure the USA has a history of F'ing that up royally and yeah I think they over-impose their corporal punishment. My own personal belief is that the only crimes that should be punishable by death are grand treason, and mass-murder for political/religious/personal reasons(again I would omit serial killers because it has been fairly well documented that guys like Dahmer, Bundy were victims of a disease in their mind, a compulsion to kill, that they struggled with from an early age).
If you guarantee that you have the kind of open-and-shut case that acts like yesterday provide(loads of eyewitnesses, videos, on site confessions before any possibility of duress), then yes it is a fitting punishment.
I'm not in any way suggesting that you should get the DP when you get the kind of circumstantial evidence that seems to stand up so well in American courts.
As long as we are theorycrafting legal systems we can avoid/remove the pitfalls of other similar systems while also improving our own ones.
On May 24 2013 11:22 Taguchi wrote: Well GaNgStaRR.ElV, from what you've posted I can definitely see how you came about those FB friends of yours you had to 'purge'. I mean, I had read most of your post happily nodding along and then suddenly bam!
On May 24 2013 10:21 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: The second shame is that because they didn't kill these guys on the spot, they are probably going to spend the rest of their lives locked up in Belmarsh prison on the British citizen's tax money with a bunch of other inmates who have also been arrested on their Jihad, or share these people's views. It's not exactly like they are going to pay for the rest of their life for this, sitting in prison reading the Qu-ran never having to worry about doing anything but passing time isn't exactly fair punishment.
I mean there's a reason the British Empire was strongest at a time when the punishment for treason was to be hung, drawn and quartered. I bet there would be little to no repeats of this attack if we hung the quarters of these guys off the barbs of the Tower of London like Henry the 8th is still kicking!
The rare breed of the thoughtful anti-nationalist who also thinks fondly of the time people were hung and quartered!
You definately missed the point of the HDQ reference buddy. I am merely inferring that we are too much of a pacifist society, denying our "fight or flight" animal instincts to the point that it bites us in the ass.
But it's ok a lot of people seem to have made the same mistake you did.
PS. Why the hell would I think kindly of that? I have Irish ancestors who suffered that fate at the hands of disgustingly autocratic kings. I just think sometimes people need to man up and realize we live in a VERY violent world, not the Disney channel.
So more violence will solve our problems?
When it can be jusitified(self-defence)? Yes.
Do I want us to drone-strike the hell out of Nigeria because these guys are of Nigerian heritage? No
Do I believe in the death penalty after a fair and reasonable trial? Yes
God bless the USA for not giving up on that last one.
But you was talking about torturing and killing them without a whimp.
You literally have no room for METAPHOR or the slightest splash of sensationalism.
I just said we should have a death penalty so we don't have to pay to keep them alive and to remind the world that when you mass-murder us, you won't be treated softly for it.
is the lethal injection that inhumane?
And "without a whimp"? No they get their day in court thanks to Mrs. RoboCop. But we all know they did it. Do you deny that? Therefore I can confidently say YES, I do think they deserve to die. Maybe not brutally, as again I don't think anyone wants the Middle Ages to return(when Christianity was on the level of barbarity that certain branches of Islam such as the Wahhabi sect are showing now) but certainly deserve to die a billion times more than that poor soldier did.
I have all room i want for metaphors because you´re mixing personal feelings with a objective ethical axiom about how our society should work.
And yes death penalty is barbaric and the moment the goverment kill just 1 innocent person the whole system is a big failor. The goverment murdered a innocent person, it´s a murder and by law you sentence murder to death. A paradox. Not even speaking about ethics then...
Our peacefull society has it´s price. Paying tax and the goverment investing this money for jails and food is one of them. A price i pay happily. If you´re so upset with this situation there are countrys that could be interesting for you.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree then.
I have no problem with death or with the idea of having to take someone's life in the name of peace, I don't see it as a paradox, but as nature's one basic necessity. Even though it's illegal in this country, if an intruder broke into my home tonight and threatened my family, I would happily bury the broken shaft of a hockey stick through their heart then stick around to figure out if they meant the threats they implied, even if it meant I had to do a bid for manslaughter.
I think people like you who consider something like the death penalty "barbaric", are simply out of touch with the fact that beyond this "civilized" ethos we have built up in our minds, we are animals in a war of survival of the fittest, every day.
The difference is that for 1000s of years our only predators are ourselves, and in the last 200 this is slowly transforming so that the way we "prey" on each other, rather than a life-or-death fight, is a "let's see who can be more successful/make more money/be more famous", which leads people to forget that there are people in other parts of the world who think nothing of taking human life, and that there is no reasoning with someone like that, there is merely being the fittest in order to guarantee surivival.
Edit: didnt see your bit about "innocents". Don't see how that's relevant. Sure the USA has a history of F'ing that up royally and yeah I think they over-impose their corporal punishment. My own personal belief is that the only crimes that should be punishable by death are grand treason, and mass-murder for political/religious/personal reasons(again I would omit serial killers because it has been fairly well documented that guys like Dahmer, Bundy were victims of a disease in their mind, a compulsion to kill, that they struggled with from an early age).
If you guarantee that you have the kind of open-and-shut case that acts like yesterday provide(loads of eyewitnesses, videos, on site confessions before any possibility of duress), then yes it is a fitting punishment.
I'm not in any way suggesting that you should get the DP when you get the kind of circumstantial evidence that seems to stand up so well in American courts.
As long as we are theorycrafting legal systems we can avoid/remove the pitfalls of other similar systems while also improving our own ones.
Based on what I heard in the video, I bet the man who killed the soldier would argue he was taking "someone's life in the name of peace" as you put it. I haven't paid that much attention to this, but it seemed simple enough to gather that from his statements. Don't forget to look at things from other peoples' viewpoints, or at least attempt to do so.
On May 24 2013 11:22 Taguchi wrote: Well GaNgStaRR.ElV, from what you've posted I can definitely see how you came about those FB friends of yours you had to 'purge'. I mean, I had read most of your post happily nodding along and then suddenly bam!
On May 24 2013 10:21 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: The second shame is that because they didn't kill these guys on the spot, they are probably going to spend the rest of their lives locked up in Belmarsh prison on the British citizen's tax money with a bunch of other inmates who have also been arrested on their Jihad, or share these people's views. It's not exactly like they are going to pay for the rest of their life for this, sitting in prison reading the Qu-ran never having to worry about doing anything but passing time isn't exactly fair punishment.
I mean there's a reason the British Empire was strongest at a time when the punishment for treason was to be hung, drawn and quartered. I bet there would be little to no repeats of this attack if we hung the quarters of these guys off the barbs of the Tower of London like Henry the 8th is still kicking!
The rare breed of the thoughtful anti-nationalist who also thinks fondly of the time people were hung and quartered!
You definately missed the point of the HDQ reference buddy. I am merely inferring that we are too much of a pacifist society, denying our "fight or flight" animal instincts to the point that it bites us in the ass.
But it's ok a lot of people seem to have made the same mistake you did.
PS. Why the hell would I think kindly of that? I have Irish ancestors who suffered that fate at the hands of disgustingly autocratic kings. I just think sometimes people need to man up and realize we live in a VERY violent world, not the Disney channel.
So more violence will solve our problems?
When it can be jusitified(self-defence)? Yes.
Do I want us to drone-strike the hell out of Nigeria because these guys are of Nigerian heritage? No
Do I believe in the death penalty after a fair and reasonable trial? Yes
God bless the USA for not giving up on that last one.
But you was talking about torturing and killing them without a whimp.
You literally have no room for METAPHOR or the slightest splash of sensationalism.
I just said we should have a death penalty so we don't have to pay to keep them alive and to remind the world that when you mass-murder us, you won't be treated softly for it.
is the lethal injection that inhumane?
And "without a whimp"? No they get their day in court thanks to Mrs. RoboCop. But we all know they did it. Do you deny that? Therefore I can confidently say YES, I do think they deserve to die. Maybe not brutally, as again I don't think anyone wants the Middle Ages to return(when Christianity was on the level of barbarity that certain branches of Islam such as the Wahhabi sect are showing now) but certainly deserve to die a billion times more than that poor soldier did.
I have all room i want for metaphors because you´re mixing personal feelings with a objective ethical axiom about how our society should work.
And yes death penalty is barbaric and the moment the goverment kill just 1 innocent person the whole system is a big failor. The goverment murdered a innocent person, it´s a murder and by law you sentence murder to death. A paradox. Not even speaking about ethics then...
Our peacefull society has it´s price. Paying tax and the goverment investing this money for jails and food is one of them. A price i pay happily. If you´re so upset with this situation there are countrys that could be interesting for you.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree then.
I have no problem with death or with the idea of having to take someone's life in the name of peace, I don't see it as a paradox, but as nature's one basic necessity. Even though it's illegal in this country, if an intruder broke into my home tonight and threatened my family, I would happily bury the broken shaft of a hockey stick through their heart then stick around to figure out if they meant the threats they implied, even if it meant I had to do a bid for manslaughter.
I think people like you who consider something like the death penalty "barbaric", are simply out of touch with the fact that beyond this "civilized" ethos we have built up in our minds, we are animals in a war of survival of the fittest, every day.
The difference is that for 1000s of years our only predators are ourselves, and in the last 200 this is slowly transforming so that the way we "prey" on each other, rather than a life-or-death fight, is a "let's see who can be more successful/make more money/be more famous", which leads people to forget that there are people in other parts of the world who think nothing of taking human life, and that there is no reasoning with someone like that, there is merely being the fittest in order to guarantee surivival.
Edit: didnt see your bit about "innocents". Don't see how that's relevant. Sure the USA has a history of F'ing that up royally and yeah I think they over-impose their corporal punishment. My own personal belief is that the only crimes that should be punishable by death are grand treason, and mass-murder for political/religious/personal reasons(again I would omit serial killers because it has been fairly well documented that guys like Dahmer, Bundy were victims of a disease in their mind, a compulsion to kill, that they struggled with from an early age).
If you guarantee that you have the kind of open-and-shut case that acts like yesterday provide(loads of eyewitnesses, videos, on site confessions before any possibility of duress), then yes it is a fitting punishment.
I'm not in any way suggesting that you should get the DP when you get the kind of circumstantial evidence that seems to stand up so well in American courts.
As long as we are theorycrafting legal systems we can avoid/remove the pitfalls of other similar systems while also improving our own ones.
Based on what I heard in the video, I bet the man who killed the soldier would argue he was taking "someone's life in the name of peace" as you put it. I haven't paid that much attention to this, but it seemed simple enough to gather that from his statements. Don't forget to look at things from other peoples' viewpoints, or at least attempt to do so.
I looked at his viewpoint for a flat total of 10 seconds before realizing how insane to think that he was "taking someone''s life in the name of peace". Can you really compare my call to kill for peace and prosperity on convicted terrorists to an arbitrary killing of a man whose sole crime was supposedly being part of an "unethical(yes right, more like unwanted)"war?
On May 24 2013 11:22 Taguchi wrote: Well GaNgStaRR.ElV, from what you've posted I can definitely see how you came about those FB friends of yours you had to 'purge'. I mean, I had read most of your post happily nodding along and then suddenly bam!
On May 24 2013 10:21 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: The second shame is that because they didn't kill these guys on the spot, they are probably going to spend the rest of their lives locked up in Belmarsh prison on the British citizen's tax money with a bunch of other inmates who have also been arrested on their Jihad, or share these people's views. It's not exactly like they are going to pay for the rest of their life for this, sitting in prison reading the Qu-ran never having to worry about doing anything but passing time isn't exactly fair punishment.
I mean there's a reason the British Empire was strongest at a time when the punishment for treason was to be hung, drawn and quartered. I bet there would be little to no repeats of this attack if we hung the quarters of these guys off the barbs of the Tower of London like Henry the 8th is still kicking!
The rare breed of the thoughtful anti-nationalist who also thinks fondly of the time people were hung and quartered!
You definately missed the point of the HDQ reference buddy. I am merely inferring that we are too much of a pacifist society, denying our "fight or flight" animal instincts to the point that it bites us in the ass.
But it's ok a lot of people seem to have made the same mistake you did.
PS. Why the hell would I think kindly of that? I have Irish ancestors who suffered that fate at the hands of disgustingly autocratic kings. I just think sometimes people need to man up and realize we live in a VERY violent world, not the Disney channel.
So more violence will solve our problems?
Luckily violence has an upper limit! If there are 200 people on the left, and 200 people on the right, and they are having a disagreement (resulting in numerous scuffles and whatnot) there will be a base level of violence. However, when they begin to openly fight and attempt to kill one another, there will be a temporary spike in the quantifiable "violence" index preceding a precipitous (and prolonged) drop off as one side is victorious. Thus resulting in an extended temporal demarcation whereby violence will be used at a drastically decreased rate as the native population attempts to replace itself, this time in lieu of any enemies or other "tribes".
^_^
All joking aside, it truly is disheartening how fearful you've been made of violence. It is a tool. Like anything else it can be used properly or improperly. Violence is not inherently immoral. It is simply the final arbiter when all other matters of recourse have failed.
A fair summation:
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse.....A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -John Stuart Mill
On May 24 2013 11:22 Taguchi wrote: Well GaNgStaRR.ElV, from what you've posted I can definitely see how you came about those FB friends of yours you had to 'purge'. I mean, I had read most of your post happily nodding along and then suddenly bam!
On May 24 2013 10:21 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: The second shame is that because they didn't kill these guys on the spot, they are probably going to spend the rest of their lives locked up in Belmarsh prison on the British citizen's tax money with a bunch of other inmates who have also been arrested on their Jihad, or share these people's views. It's not exactly like they are going to pay for the rest of their life for this, sitting in prison reading the Qu-ran never having to worry about doing anything but passing time isn't exactly fair punishment.
I mean there's a reason the British Empire was strongest at a time when the punishment for treason was to be hung, drawn and quartered. I bet there would be little to no repeats of this attack if we hung the quarters of these guys off the barbs of the Tower of London like Henry the 8th is still kicking!
The rare breed of the thoughtful anti-nationalist who also thinks fondly of the time people were hung and quartered!
You definately missed the point of the HDQ reference buddy. I am merely inferring that we are too much of a pacifist society, denying our "fight or flight" animal instincts to the point that it bites us in the ass.
But it's ok a lot of people seem to have made the same mistake you did.
PS. Why the hell would I think kindly of that? I have Irish ancestors who suffered that fate at the hands of disgustingly autocratic kings. I just think sometimes people need to man up and realize we live in a VERY violent world, not the Disney channel.
So more violence will solve our problems?
When it can be jusitified(self-defence)? Yes.
Do I want us to drone-strike the hell out of Nigeria because these guys are of Nigerian heritage? No
Do I believe in the death penalty after a fair and reasonable trial? Yes
God bless the USA for not giving up on that last one.
But you was talking about torturing and killing them without a whimp.
You literally have no room for METAPHOR or the slightest splash of sensationalism.
I just said we should have a death penalty so we don't have to pay to keep them alive and to remind the world that when you mass-murder us, you won't be treated softly for it.
is the lethal injection that inhumane?
And "without a whimp"? No they get their day in court thanks to Mrs. RoboCop. But we all know they did it. Do you deny that? Therefore I can confidently say YES, I do think they deserve to die. Maybe not brutally, as again I don't think anyone wants the Middle Ages to return(when Christianity was on the level of barbarity that certain branches of Islam such as the Wahhabi sect are showing now) but certainly deserve to die a billion times more than that poor soldier did.
I have all room i want for metaphors because you´re mixing personal feelings with a objective ethical axiom about how our society should work.
And yes death penalty is barbaric and the moment the goverment kill just 1 innocent person the whole system is a big failor. The goverment murdered a innocent person, it´s a murder and by law you sentence murder to death. A paradox. Not even speaking about ethics then...
Our peacefull society has it´s price. Paying tax and the goverment investing this money for jails and food is one of them. A price i pay happily. If you´re so upset with this situation there are countrys that could be interesting for you.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree then.
I have no problem with death or with the idea of having to take someone's life in the name of peace, I don't see it as a paradox, but as nature's one basic necessity. Even though it's illegal in this country, if an intruder broke into my home tonight and threatened my family, I would happily bury the broken shaft of a hockey stick through their heart then stick around to figure out if they meant the threats they implied, even if it meant I had to do a bid for manslaughter.
I think people like you who consider something like the death penalty "barbaric", are simply out of touch with the fact that beyond this "civilized" ethos we have built up in our minds, we are animals in a war of survival of the fittest, every day.
The difference is that for 1000s of years our only predators are ourselves, and in the last 200 this is slowly transforming so that the way we "prey" on each other, rather than a life-or-death fight, is a "let's see who can be more successful/make more money/be more famous", which leads people to forget that there are people in other parts of the world who think nothing of taking human life, and that there is no reasoning with someone like that, there is merely being the fittest in order to guarantee surivival.
Edit: didnt see your bit about "innocents". Don't see how that's relevant. Sure the USA has a history of F'ing that up royally and yeah I think they over-impose their corporal punishment. My own personal belief is that the only crimes that should be punishable by death are grand treason, and mass-murder for political/religious/personal reasons(again I would omit serial killers because it has been fairly well documented that guys like Dahmer, Bundy were victims of a disease in their mind, a compulsion to kill, that they struggled with from an early age).
If you guarantee that you have the kind of open-and-shut case that acts like yesterday provide(loads of eyewitnesses, videos, on site confessions before any possibility of duress), then yes it is a fitting punishment.
I'm not in any way suggesting that you should get the DP when you get the kind of circumstantial evidence that seems to stand up so well in American courts.
As long as we are theorycrafting legal systems we can avoid/remove the pitfalls of other similar systems while also improving our own ones.
Based on what I heard in the video, I bet the man who killed the soldier would argue he was taking "someone's life in the name of peace" as you put it. I haven't paid that much attention to this, but it seemed simple enough to gather that from his statements. Don't forget to look at things from other peoples' viewpoints, or at least attempt to do so.
And he probably did. But despite the ability to subject the event to a meta-analysis, we must never lose sight that we are not in fact an objective 3rd party, but as human beings we are involved/potentially involved. With that in mind, how could I not choose my version of "fighting in the name of peace" over his?
Then it just comes down to which side is better at it's bloody work. If I had to take bets? I'd say the West wins that one, and the rest of the world knows it.
You seem to have a complete missconception about my person (if that was addresed at me personal). Don´t try to make me look like i´m a fearful pacifist because you just don´t know me. =)
Nontheless there are concepts on that we base our society. And i for myself wouldn´t count killing of criminals or even torture one these concepts. That´s the only thing i was talking about. It´s a bit off that you start to arguing about war, posting werd videos and using quotes of a 200 years old dead man.
On May 24 2013 13:35 Nachtwind wrote: You seem to have a complete missconception about my person (if that was addresed at me personal). Don´t try to make me look like i´m a fearful pacifist because you just don´t know me. =)
Nontheless there are concepts on that we base our society. And i for myself wouldn´t count killing of criminals or even torture one these concepts. That´s the only thing i was talking about. It´s a bit off that you start to arguing about war, posting werd videos and using quotes of a 200 years old dead man.
I was taking your notions to their logical (and fatalistic) conclusion. You could be the toughest, nastiest German brawler on the planet, but it doesn't change how you can't see violence in society for what it is; a necessary mechanism, neither good nor bad. The intention with all the strange bits being included had to do with making broader connections to your seeming assertion that more violence can only make things worse. Violence can do many things, and not all of them evil.
I apologize if any of that came across as a personal attack. I tend to use posts as tangential springboards for ideas related to the topic on top of directly addressing the posts and the last bit was not directed at you, but more of a summary of my position on pacifism in general in order to provide a frame of reference for my statements.
Edit: You could probably kick my ass in real life. :p
Sure there are cases where we the society have decided that we allow forms of violence in our society. Police or self defense for example. Also the concept of good and bad is philosophical. The term i used regarding death penalty was a barbaric act. It´s only satisfying the lowest human feelings and i think those feelings should have no place in how we regulate the base mechanisms of how our society should work. I totally have those barbaric feelings though but i differ between personal view and a general society view.
The question i was asking had the conclusion that a torture/killing of this criminals would lead into more attacks. And only a fair process can normalise the situation like someone already mentioned here.
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse.....A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -John Stuart Mill
Pacifists are the ultimate degenerates.
Your sentence at the bottom completely destroys the meaning behind the original quote. What about the pacifists in world war 2 who became army medics? Degenerates?
Compare these pacifists to someone who orders a drone strike to kill 1 guilty guy and 100 innocents from the safety of his big ass office. Who is the degenerate? Who has regard for their own personal safety?
Here's the full quote (and pic of the guy as he was saying it): + Show Spoiler +
"The only reason we have killed this man today is because Muslims are dying daily by British soldiers. And this British soldier is one. It is an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. By Allah, we swear by the almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. So what if we want to live by the Shari'a in Muslim lands? Why does that mean you must follow us and chase us and call us extremists and kill us? Rather you lot are extreme. You are the ones that when you drop a bomb you think it hits one person? Or rather your bomb wipes out a whole family? This is the reality. By Allah if I saw your mother today with a buggy I would help her up the stairs. This is my nature. But we are forced by the Qur'an, in Sura At-Tawba, through many ayah in the Qu'ran, we must fight them as they fight us. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. I apologise that women had to witness this today but in our lands women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your governments, they don’t care about you. You think David Cameron is going to get caught in the street when we start busting our guns? You think politicians are going to die? No, it’s going to be the average guy, like you and your children. So get rid of them. Tell them to bring our troops back so can all live in peace. So leave our lands and we can all live in peace. That’s all I have to say. [in Arabic: ] Allah’s peace and blessings be upon you."
It seems, quite frankly, like a rational argument and potentially even rational actions based on his reasoning. And yet at the same time, look at the picture and the situation. It's totally insane. This is an insane person who nevertheless has underlying reasons for his behavior.
Maybe we've got the same issue? Totally rational reasons and actions which logically follow, but maybe it's totally insane as well? I mean we take out tons of people all the time, soldiers and families. But we have our reasons for it.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SZS74Im.jpg)
