EPTUK Soldier beheaded in London - Page 33
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Please attempt to distinguish between extremists and non extremists to avoid starting the inevitable waste of time that is "can Islam be judged by its believers?" - KwarK | ||
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Thor.Rush
Sweden702 Posts
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On May 23 2013 23:43 hzflank wrote: The invasion of muslim countries. To be more specific it is probably Afghanistan. I doubt that the extremist groups who told him what to believe minded us too much in Libya or potentially Syria. OK... correct me if I'm wrong, the invasion of Afghanistan is an invasion based off the fact that the west (USA, UK, etc) wanted to dislodge Al-quaeda and the Taliban from Afghanistan, since they're extremist assholes anyway. If wikipedia is worth anything, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want the Taliban at the head of my country: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban#Overview So, in my opinion, the invasion of Afghanistan is justified. If you feel I'm missing something then please point out the one fundamental detail I'm not getting which should change my point of view. Now that I've established that there's a good reason to be in Afghanistan, I can now call the murderer a complete fucktard, quite happily. War is war, there will always be causalities. Unless the UK government is somehow murdering innocent people or torturing prisoners or something nasty like that, there's no reason to say that the UK is sinful. Again, I may be missing something here so if you disagree with what I say, just say why. What's more is that using violence to get a message across is nothing short of disgusting and if anything, it makes me want to ignore the message. It's possible to send a message without beheading someone in public. That's what MLK did, that's what Ghandi did. I don't care what your motives are, you don't resort to violence to say something. That's a fucking asshole thing to do. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On May 23 2013 23:54 Thor.Rush wrote: I'd like to point out that people trying to justify the actions of terrorists brilliantly displays the level of intellect in this thread. You're not reading properly if this is what you're taking from the thread. Try again. | ||
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
On May 23 2013 23:54 Thor.Rush wrote: I'd like to point out that people trying to justify the actions of terrorists brilliantly displays the level of intellect in this thread. I'd like to point out that people aren't justifying the actions of terrorists in this thread. Discussing motive =/= justifying. | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
On May 23 2013 23:54 Incognoto wrote: OK... correct me if I'm wrong, the invasion of Afghanistan is an invasion based off the fact that the west (USA, UK, etc) wanted to dislodge Al-quaeda and the Taliban from Afghanistan, since they're extremist assholes anyway. If wikipedia is worth anything, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want the Taliban at the head of my country: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban#Overview So, in my opinion, the invasion of Afghanistan is justified. If you feel I'm missing something then please point out the one fundamental detail I'm not getting which should change my point of view. Now that I've established that there's a good reason to be in Afghanistan, I can now call the murderer a complete fucktard, quite happily. War is war, there will always be causalities. Unless the UK government is somehow murdering innocent people or torturing prisoners or something nasty like that, there's no reason to say that the UK is sinful. Again, I may be missing something here so if you disagree with what I say, just say why. There is no doubt on the murderers being 'complete fucktards', and few people here are going to disagree with that. The problem with justified invasions is that they are not justified to the people who are currently being invaded. The Taliban are certainly extremists assholes, but by attacking them what we did was make it a lot easier for them to recruit more impressionable people into their ranks. In this case two young British men were recruited and they just killed a soldier. You cannot use guns to kill an idea. | ||
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SamsonKnight
United States26 Posts
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Thor.Rush
Sweden702 Posts
On May 24 2013 00:04 kmillz wrote: I'd like to point out that people aren't justifying the actions of terrorists in this thread. Discussing motive =/= justifying. We already know what their motives are. People repeating them constantly and coming up with new ones = finding excuses = (implying) they are trying to justify their actions. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9732 Posts
On May 24 2013 00:11 SamsonKnight wrote: Here is another case of criminals using "Religion" as a source of Violence..as usual religion is number 1 cause of violence.. Use some deduction. Read through your first sentence and see what the actual cause of the violence is. | ||
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
On May 24 2013 00:11 Thor.Rush wrote: We already know what their motives are. People repeating them constantly and coming up with new ones = finding excuses = (implying) they are trying to justify their actions. Then you need to learn what the word justify means, because it's not that. | ||
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
On May 24 2013 00:11 SamsonKnight wrote: Here is another case of criminals using "Religion" as a source of Violence..as usual religion is number 1 cause of violence.. And another case of an internet intellectual using another tragedy to justify his simple minded opinions. Dear God...I suddenly miss zalz. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On May 24 2013 00:11 Thor.Rush wrote: We already know what their motives are. People repeating them constantly and coming up with new ones = finding excuses = (implying) they are trying to justify their actions. Again, I think you'll find everyone in the thread is in agreement that the attack was barborous and wrong. Are you suggesting otherwise? If not, what exactly are you trying to say? | ||
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Jormundr
United States1678 Posts
On May 23 2013 23:54 Incognoto wrote: OK... correct me if I'm wrong, the invasion of Afghanistan is an invasion based off the fact that the west (USA, UK, etc) wanted to dislodge Al-quaeda and the Taliban from Afghanistan, since they're extremist assholes anyway. If wikipedia is worth anything, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want the Taliban at the head of my country: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban#Overview So, in my opinion, the invasion of Afghanistan is justified. If you feel I'm missing something then please point out the one fundamental detail I'm not getting which should change my point of view. Now that I've established that there's a good reason to be in Afghanistan, I can now call the murderer a complete fucktard, quite happily. War is war, there will always be causalities. Unless the UK government is somehow murdering innocent people or torturing prisoners or something nasty like that, there's no reason to say that the UK is sinful. Again, I may be missing something here so if you disagree with what I say, just say why. What's more is that using violence to get a message across is nothing short of disgusting and if anything, it makes me want to ignore the message. It's possible to send a message without beheading someone in public. That's what MLK did, that's what Ghandi did. I don't care what your motives are, you don't resort to violence to say something. That's a fucking asshole thing to do. Hey guys it's fine, I know you lost your wife and son, Rasheed, but it's ok. The invasion is justified. They didn't like our government so they had a right to come and kill thousands of civilians, three times as many soldiers and occupy our lands for 10 years. | ||
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Sjokola
Netherlands800 Posts
On May 23 2013 23:54 Incognoto wrote: OK... correct me if I'm wrong, the invasion of Afghanistan is an invasion based off the fact that the west (USA, UK, etc) wanted to dislodge Al-quaeda and the Taliban from Afghanistan, since they're extremist assholes anyway. If wikipedia is worth anything, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want the Taliban at the head of my country: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban#Overview So, in my opinion, the invasion of Afghanistan is justified. If you feel I'm missing something then please point out the one fundamental detail I'm not getting which should change my point of view. Now that I've established that there's a good reason to be in Afghanistan, I can now call the murderer a complete fucktard, quite happily. War is war, there will always be causalities. Unless the UK government is somehow murdering innocent people or torturing prisoners or something nasty like that, there's no reason to say that the UK is sinful. Again, I may be missing something here so if you disagree with what I say, just say why. What's more is that using violence to get a message across is nothing short of disgusting and if anything, it makes me want to ignore the message. It's possible to send a message without beheading someone in public. That's what MLK did, that's what Ghandi did. I don't care what your motives are, you don't resort to violence to say something. That's a fucking asshole thing to do. The fact that we don't want the Taliban to head our countries doesn't give us the right to dislodge them. There are many regimes that is don't agree with. In fact I dare say there aren't any governments/regimes/countries that everybody wants to live in and be subject to. If an invasion would be justified on our beliefs and morals then an invasion from North Korea or Islamic countries whatever in Western Europe would be just as justified. Also the reason Taliban in is Afghanistan (being from Pakistan origin) is because they were "recruited" by the US to fight against the Russians. We shouldn't meddle unless our help is requested. No one has the right to force his or hers beliefs upon someone else. | ||
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Meatex
Australia285 Posts
Government there likely using this as an excuse to re-enforce the be afraid message that is so useful for political bodies | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On May 24 2013 00:17 Sjokola wrote: The fact that we don't want the Taliban to head our countries doesn't give us the right to dislodge them. There are many regimes that is don't agree with. In fact I dare say there aren't any governments/regimes/countries that everybody wants to live in and be subject to. If an invasion would be justified on our beliefs and morals then an invasion from North Korea or Islamic countries whatever in Western Europe would be just as justified. Also the reason Taliban in is Afghanistan (being from Pakistan origin) is because they were "recruited" by the US to fight against the Russians. We shouldn't meddle unless our help is requested. No one has the right to force his or hers beliefs upon someone else. For the sake of argument, how would they request help? What would be the proper protocol? | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9732 Posts
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/02/birmingham-murder-racially-motivated-police | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On May 24 2013 00:07 hzflank wrote: There is no doubt on the murderers being 'complete fucktards', and few people here are going to disagree with that. The problem with justified invasions is that they are not justified to the people who are currently being invaded. The Taliban are certainly extremists assholes, but by attacking them what we did was make it a lot easier for them to recruit more impressionable people into their ranks. In this case two young British men were recruited and they just killed a soldier. You cannot use guns to kill an idea. I agree, invading Afghanistan and causing violence in that country probably did help the Taliban recruit impressionable people. It's really "easy" to tell someone that there's an enemy out there who doesn't think like us and who is coming in to change the way we do things. That enemy is going to cause violence and that enemy is going to order us around, occupy us, etc. From that angle, the cause from the Taliban's may indeed seem just. That doesn't mean it actually is. The Taliban remain an extremist group. I believe that they refused to give up Al Qaeda after the terrorist attacks of 9/11. They're quite violent and they treat women like shit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban_treatment_of_women http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/6185.htm No matter how I look at it, invading Afghanistan to dislodge the Taliban and put in a more reasonable government almost seems to be humane. The invasion is all the more justified and the West certainly can't back out now, as the country is still in turmoil. Attacking them might lead to having impressionable people join the Taliban. I can concede to that, I'm fully aware of the power of propaganda and brainwashing can have. The situation would probably be worse if the West didn't invade however. In my eyes the invasion remains fully justified. The casualties that are the result of the invasion are unfortunate, but having a terrorist group move about freely and having people with a very poor sense of humanity at the head of a country is even worse. So attacking an innocent soldier, for me, remains an appalling and disgusting crime, trying to send out a message this way is just sick. | ||
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Thor.Rush
Sweden702 Posts
On May 24 2013 00:14 kmillz wrote: Then you need to learn what the word justify means, because it's not that. No, you miss my point in that people coming up with more excuses for the terrorists' actions is a way of validating them even if that is not their intention. But w/e I guess no one agrees with me so please continue. | ||
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frontliner2
Netherlands844 Posts
Wat must we do; - we must all condemn this attack (I think this is already done by the Govt. & by Islamic Clergy) - we must all not panic - we must speak out more strongly about religious extremism (in this case Salafism/sharialovers) - we must actively combat and counter terrorsist factions (already being done) - we must NOT blame the average man/woman happened to be born a Muslim - we must not go batshit crazy and join the EDL We are not all going to be annihilated by radical Islam at this point. yes, from time to time people will fall victim to radical islamism and we must react to that each and every time. If 'native' europeans start being killed on a larger and more frequent basis THEN we should start to think about forming a resistance and only then. Still that would only be just if THE MUSLIMS were attacking us en masse. this COULD happen but I don't think it will (thank whoever is in charge of our creation). The future attacks and killings of native europeans by Islamic influence will be thanks to Radical Islamism and not the average Achmed or Muhammad living next door or working in your local food market (or whatever). The easiest (and least intelligent way) to respond now would be to demand extradition of banishment of all who are muslim. Still I dislike all religions and Islam is leading the list because of how frequent these attacks come from 'their side'. However, blaming the innocent is no form of justice. | ||
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
On May 24 2013 00:24 Thor.Rush wrote: No, you miss my point in that people coming up with more excuses for the terrorists' actions is a way of validating them even if that is not their intention. But w/e I guess no one agrees with me so please continue. Saying "I think he did it for this reason" or "he did it for that reason" is not the same as saying "he did the right thing slaughtering that man because of x reason" (justifying). That's all I was getting at. | ||
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