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Please attempt to distinguish between extremists and non extremists to avoid starting the inevitable waste of time that is "can Islam be judged by its believers?" - KwarK |
On May 23 2013 19:03 Psychobabas wrote:
Some people on this thread actually trying to defend these animals by saying stuff like "oh well they were just crazy", "this shouldn't be classified as a terrorist attack", "this wasn't religiously motivated". It's sickening, even more so if you're British.
I agree.
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Send all the Muslims away, we don't want them in the UK
Everything like this is always religiously motivated and it's scary what is happening on our streets
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 23 2013 19:12 revel8 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 19:03 Psychobabas wrote:
Some people on this thread actually trying to defend these animals by saying stuff like "oh well they were just crazy", "this shouldn't be classified as a terrorist attack", "this wasn't religiously motivated". It's sickening, even more so if you're British. I agree.
I disagree. I don't know if it is appropriate in this instance, but if these people were completely mentally unstable then it /is/ a whole different thing. No less tragic, but certainly not the same.
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On May 23 2013 19:12 revel8 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 19:03 Psychobabas wrote:
Some people on this thread actually trying to defend these animals by saying stuff like "oh well they were just crazy", "this shouldn't be classified as a terrorist attack", "this wasn't religiously motivated". It's sickening, even more so if you're British. I agree.
I disagree. None of those statements are in defense of the murderers. Discussing the nature of the attack is entirely relevant, the term terrorist attack isn't exactly clear, is it?
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On May 23 2013 19:12 revel8 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 19:03 Psychobabas wrote:
Some people on this thread actually trying to defend these animals by saying stuff like "oh well they were just crazy", "this shouldn't be classified as a terrorist attack", "this wasn't religiously motivated". It's sickening, even more so if you're British. I agree.
I defend nothing but an intelligent understanding of the situation from the evidence at hand.
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Does the UK have capital punishment? If not, I feel that it should. This is just one of those cases where these individuals really should not be a burden to the tax payer spending their life in jail with 3 square and a warm bed.
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On May 23 2013 19:18 Grimmyman123 wrote:
Does the UK have capital punishment? If not, I feel that it should. This is just one of those cases where these individuals really should not be a burden to the tax payer spending their life in jail with 3 square and a warm bed.
There was a blog on life in prison on TL somewhere a while back. It was pretty fucking horrific. I think prison will be just fine for them.
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United States43868 Posts
On May 23 2013 19:03 Psychobabas wrote:
Some people on this thread actually trying to defend these animals by saying stuff like "oh well they were just crazy", "this shouldn't be classified as a terrorist attack", "this wasn't religiously motivated". It's sickening, even more so if you're British.
Based upon the fact that the brief manifesto he offered blamed policy decisions, demanded political change and offered a policy solution to avoid further attacks I would say that it was very, very explicitly political. The guy was religious but what he demanded was British troops withdrawing from Muslim nations rather than everyone converting to Islam. His demands were not religious, he even called for the people not to re-elect David Cameron, they were political statements.
What he did was in essence no different than a nutjob member of the Animal Liberation Front who believed with a religious fervour that all living things are an equal in the eyes of Gaia executing a scientist who tested on animals, demanding a government ban on animal testing and calling for the people to oppose their government. You wouldn't classify that as pantheistic terrorism, you'd say it was an animal rights nutter. Likewise this isn't Islamic terrorism, this is an anti military intervention in the Muslim world nutter.
The guy got in front of a camera and told people why he did it, you can watch it or read what he said, there isn't really any ambiguity about it. The most you can possibly argue is that his religious extremism led him to rationalise horrific acts in order to promote his political aims, what his aims were can't really be doubted because he told us what they were and not one of them was religious.
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United Kingdom12027 Posts
On May 23 2013 19:18 Grimmyman123 wrote:
Does the UK have capital punishment? If not, I feel that it should. This is just one of those cases where these individuals really should not be a burden to the tax payer spending their life in jail with 3 square and a warm bed.
I know this isn't the thread for this discussion, but capital punishment just gives people an easy way out. They never have to face up to their crime and they never need to live with the guilt as you kill them before that point.
This story is disgusting, but I worry people are now going to use this to try and discriminate against a certain race/religion or country and I find that even worse. This attack is horrible and an innocent (yes he was a soldier I realise) was killed for little to no reason other than some random madmen with knives/machetes decided to go rogue and kill the guy. I'm just glad this is a rather rare occurance in this country, in others it happens weekly if not daily but with various other weapons.
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On May 23 2013 17:01 Pandemona wrote:Few Updates on Last Evenings AttackNo change in domestic terror alert level since yesterday remains at 'substantial' Mayor Boris Johnson says neither Islam Nor UK foreign policy to blame for Woolwich killing Prime Minister David Cameron will chair a COBRA meeting, the Government's emergency response committee Woman Confronts Attackers+ Show Spoiler [Story] +
A mother-of-two, who confronted one of the two suspected Woolwich killers, said he told her they wanted "to start a war in London tonight."
Ingrid Loyau-Kennett, a mother-of-two and cub scout leader with training in first aid confronted the men, telling the pair to hand over their weapons and warning them: "You are going to lose."
She said she first saw the victim lying on the street. "When I saw this guy on the floor I thought it was an accident - then I saw the guy was dead and I could not feel any pulse.
"And then when I went up there was this black guy with a revolver and a kitchen knife, he had what looked like butcher's tools and he had a little axe, to cut the bones, and two large knives, and he said 'Move off the body'.
"So I thought 'OK, I don't know what is going on here' and he was covered with blood."
The 48-year-old, from Helston, Cornwall, told The Daily Telegraph: "I thought I had better start talking to him before he starts attacking somebody else. I thought these people usually have a message so I said 'What do you want?'
"I asked him if he did it and he said 'Yes', and I said 'Why?' and he said because he has killed Muslim people in Muslim countries, he said he was a British solider and I said 'Really?'.
"I said 'Right now it is only you versus many people, you are going to lose, what would you like to do?'
"And he said 'I would like to stay and fight'."
Her confrontation emerged as other witnesses revealed details of the horrific machete attack.
Julia Wilders, who lives near the scene, said: "We were driving back and my husband said to me 'Don't look, they're resuscitating someone'. But apparently they were stabbing him."
She said she later saw one of the attackers run towards police clutching two meat cleavers.
"He ran towards police before they could even get out of the car, and it looked like the other one was going to lift the gun up," the 51-year-old said.
Others took to Twitter to describe the events, with one user, writing on the account @Boyadee, describing a female officer "taking out" one of the men "like Robocop".
Joe Tallant, 20, saw one man holding a gun and a knife, and another holding two knives. He described how he saw the victim on the floor and the men asking onlookers to call the police.
He said: "I looked on the floor and I saw a dead body and then I saw one of the men walking around the body."
When the officers arrived, Mr Tallant said the attackers "walked towards the police car with their weapons and a police lady jumped out and shot them both".
English Defence League supporters took to the streets of Woolwich and threw missiles at police after the suspected terrorist killing earlier in the day. Elsewhere, two men were arrested following separate attacks on mosques. + Show Spoiler [The Rest Of The Story] +
In Woolwich, a group of between 75 and 100 men gathered at The Queen's Arms pub on Burrage Grove, where they sang nationalist songs.
Sky News correspondent Alistair Bunkall, said: "A few missiles have been thrown, glass bottles and the like. The police have been trying to surround them and charging them as well with batons."
Earlier, two men were arrested following separate attacks on mosques in the hours following the suspected terrorist incident in southeast London.
A 43-year-old man is in custody on suspicion of attempted arson after reportedly walking into a mosque with a knife in Braintree, Essex.
Local MP Brooks Newmark tweeted: "Local mosque in Braintree attacked by man with knives and incendiary device. Man arrested. No one injured."
He added: "Just met with leaders of local mosque in Braintree which was attacked this evening. Thanked local police for their swift response."
Essex Police confirmed a 43-year-old from Braintree had been arrested on suspicion of possession of an offensive weapon and attempted arson after the incident in Silks Way at 7.15pm.
The secretary of the mosque, Sikander Saleemy, said: "The police said it's too early to try and link it to what happened in Woolwich, but those of us who were here feel that it was some sort of revenge attack. It was clear from the man's behaviour.
"We absolutely condemn what happened in Woolwich, but it had nothing to do with us.
"It was an appalling act of terror - but it wasn't "Islamic" in any way. I wish it wasn't described like that, because sadly people will now start to blame Muslims."
A police spokesman said they were investigating the "full circumstances" and said "it would not be appropriate to speculate at this time".
In Kent, police were called to reports of criminal damage at a mosque in Canterbury Street, Gillingham, at 8.40pm.
A spokesman said a man was in custody on suspicion of racially-aggravated criminal damage.
So English is not my native language and I don't quite know what to make of people throwing missiles. My years of gaming give me a weird idea about what kind of scene that is. What does that mean?
Mafe said that we shouldn't watch the video. And I agree. Just as with things like school shootings and the Boston bombings the men who did it get so much air time that they become some sort of martyrs or anti-heroes for groups of extremists. And It creates a situation where future terrorists/monsters/lunatics know that their message will be heard around the world. And we'll all say: "this one is the worst he killed ... many people." And all the old murderers get resurrected for some deep analyses from some expert.
We should keep this as local news. Some nut cases murdered a person. Don't get me wrong, I am shocked about what happened and couldn't believe it when I saw the murderer talking what it felt like directly to me. But these horrible people shouldn't get any more attention than they deserve. People get killed everywhere and we shouldn't hype this because it was exceptionally horribly lugubrious. We should let their message die with them (in a manner of speaking).
They aren't worth it.
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United States43868 Posts
A missile is a byword for an object flying through the air. Also COBRA stands for Cabinet Office Briefing Room A, it's not as cool as it sounds.
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On May 23 2013 19:22 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 19:03 Psychobabas wrote:
Some people on this thread actually trying to defend these animals by saying stuff like "oh well they were just crazy", "this shouldn't be classified as a terrorist attack", "this wasn't religiously motivated". It's sickening, even more so if you're British. Based upon the fact that the brief manifesto he offered blamed policy decisions, demanded political change and offered a policy solution to avoid further attacks I would say that it was very, very explicitly political. The guy was religious but what he demanded was British troops withdrawing from Muslim nations rather than everyone converting to Islam. His demands were not religious, he even called for the people not to re-elect David Cameron, they were political statements. What he did was in essence no different than a nutjob member of the Animal Liberation Front who believed with a religious fervour that all living things are an equal in the eyes of Gaia executing a scientist who tested on animals, demanding a government ban on animal testing and calling for the people to oppose their government. You wouldn't classify that as pantheistic terrorism, you'd say it was an animal rights nutter. Likewise this isn't Islamic terrorism, this is an anti military intervention in the Muslim world nutter.
Im not so sure, you need to remember that Islam is also a political movement, not just religious. He was motivated with claims that people of his religion was being attacked. The Gurdian even says that he said: "We want to start a war in london tonight". He saw the 2 sides as Muslims and British/ Non Muslims. In this case you can't separate religion and politics as they are entwined.
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On May 23 2013 19:28 Sjokola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 17:01 Pandemona wrote:Few Updates on Last Evenings AttackNo change in domestic terror alert level since yesterday remains at 'substantial' Mayor Boris Johnson says neither Islam Nor UK foreign policy to blame for Woolwich killing Prime Minister David Cameron will chair a COBRA meeting, the Government's emergency response committee Woman Confronts Attackers+ Show Spoiler [Story] +
A mother-of-two, who confronted one of the two suspected Woolwich killers, said he told her they wanted "to start a war in London tonight."
Ingrid Loyau-Kennett, a mother-of-two and cub scout leader with training in first aid confronted the men, telling the pair to hand over their weapons and warning them: "You are going to lose."
She said she first saw the victim lying on the street. "When I saw this guy on the floor I thought it was an accident - then I saw the guy was dead and I could not feel any pulse.
"And then when I went up there was this black guy with a revolver and a kitchen knife, he had what looked like butcher's tools and he had a little axe, to cut the bones, and two large knives, and he said 'Move off the body'.
"So I thought 'OK, I don't know what is going on here' and he was covered with blood."
The 48-year-old, from Helston, Cornwall, told The Daily Telegraph: "I thought I had better start talking to him before he starts attacking somebody else. I thought these people usually have a message so I said 'What do you want?'
"I asked him if he did it and he said 'Yes', and I said 'Why?' and he said because he has killed Muslim people in Muslim countries, he said he was a British solider and I said 'Really?'.
"I said 'Right now it is only you versus many people, you are going to lose, what would you like to do?'
"And he said 'I would like to stay and fight'."
Her confrontation emerged as other witnesses revealed details of the horrific machete attack.
Julia Wilders, who lives near the scene, said: "We were driving back and my husband said to me 'Don't look, they're resuscitating someone'. But apparently they were stabbing him."
She said she later saw one of the attackers run towards police clutching two meat cleavers.
"He ran towards police before they could even get out of the car, and it looked like the other one was going to lift the gun up," the 51-year-old said.
Others took to Twitter to describe the events, with one user, writing on the account @Boyadee, describing a female officer "taking out" one of the men "like Robocop".
Joe Tallant, 20, saw one man holding a gun and a knife, and another holding two knives. He described how he saw the victim on the floor and the men asking onlookers to call the police.
He said: "I looked on the floor and I saw a dead body and then I saw one of the men walking around the body."
When the officers arrived, Mr Tallant said the attackers "walked towards the police car with their weapons and a police lady jumped out and shot them both".
English Defence League supporters took to the streets of Woolwich and threw missiles at police after the suspected terrorist killing earlier in the day. Elsewhere, two men were arrested following separate attacks on mosques. + Show Spoiler [The Rest Of The Story] +
In Woolwich, a group of between 75 and 100 men gathered at The Queen's Arms pub on Burrage Grove, where they sang nationalist songs.
Sky News correspondent Alistair Bunkall, said: "A few missiles have been thrown, glass bottles and the like. The police have been trying to surround them and charging them as well with batons."
Earlier, two men were arrested following separate attacks on mosques in the hours following the suspected terrorist incident in southeast London.
A 43-year-old man is in custody on suspicion of attempted arson after reportedly walking into a mosque with a knife in Braintree, Essex.
Local MP Brooks Newmark tweeted: "Local mosque in Braintree attacked by man with knives and incendiary device. Man arrested. No one injured."
He added: "Just met with leaders of local mosque in Braintree which was attacked this evening. Thanked local police for their swift response."
Essex Police confirmed a 43-year-old from Braintree had been arrested on suspicion of possession of an offensive weapon and attempted arson after the incident in Silks Way at 7.15pm.
The secretary of the mosque, Sikander Saleemy, said: "The police said it's too early to try and link it to what happened in Woolwich, but those of us who were here feel that it was some sort of revenge attack. It was clear from the man's behaviour.
"We absolutely condemn what happened in Woolwich, but it had nothing to do with us.
"It was an appalling act of terror - but it wasn't "Islamic" in any way. I wish it wasn't described like that, because sadly people will now start to blame Muslims."
A police spokesman said they were investigating the "full circumstances" and said "it would not be appropriate to speculate at this time".
In Kent, police were called to reports of criminal damage at a mosque in Canterbury Street, Gillingham, at 8.40pm.
A spokesman said a man was in custody on suspicion of racially-aggravated criminal damage.
So English is not my native language and I don't quite know what to make of people throwing missiles. My years of gaming give me a weird idea about what kind of scene that is. What does that mean? Mafe said that we shouldn't watch the video. And I agree. Just as with things like school shootings and the Boston bombings the men who did it get so much air time that they become some sort of martyrs or anti-heroes for groups of extremists. And It creates a situation where future terrorists/monsters/lunatics know that their message will be heard around the world. And we'll all say: "this one is the worst he killed ... many people." And all the old murderers get resurrected for some deep analyses from some expert. We should keep this as local news. Some nut cases murdered a person. Don't get me wrong, I am shocked about what happened and couldn't believe it when I saw the murderer talking what it felt like directly to me. But these horrible people shouldn't get any more attention than they deserve. People get killed everywhere and we shouldn't hype this because it was exceptionally horribly lugubrious. We should let their message die with them (in a manner of speaking). They aren't worth it.
Missiles is a term to describe any object propelled through the air through, for example, human or chemical volition. In this instance it is probably stones, coins, bottles etc. not RPGs.
EDIT: what Kwark said.
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United Kingdom12027 Posts
English Defence League supporters took to the streets of Woolwich and threw missiles at police after the suspected terrorist killing earlier in the day.
I really hate the EDL with every fibre of my being as they're all racist idiots, but why did they attack the police? To me that makes no sense what so ever.
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Zzz 150k people die everyday
And this one was a soldier, aka no big loss
Good thing he wasn't american or we wouldn't hear the end of it, just like boston..
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 23 2013 19:33 Deleuze wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 19:28 Sjokola wrote:On May 23 2013 17:01 Pandemona wrote:Few Updates on Last Evenings AttackNo change in domestic terror alert level since yesterday remains at 'substantial' Mayor Boris Johnson says neither Islam Nor UK foreign policy to blame for Woolwich killing Prime Minister David Cameron will chair a COBRA meeting, the Government's emergency response committee Woman Confronts Attackers+ Show Spoiler [Story] +
A mother-of-two, who confronted one of the two suspected Woolwich killers, said he told her they wanted "to start a war in London tonight."
Ingrid Loyau-Kennett, a mother-of-two and cub scout leader with training in first aid confronted the men, telling the pair to hand over their weapons and warning them: "You are going to lose."
She said she first saw the victim lying on the street. "When I saw this guy on the floor I thought it was an accident - then I saw the guy was dead and I could not feel any pulse.
"And then when I went up there was this black guy with a revolver and a kitchen knife, he had what looked like butcher's tools and he had a little axe, to cut the bones, and two large knives, and he said 'Move off the body'.
"So I thought 'OK, I don't know what is going on here' and he was covered with blood."
The 48-year-old, from Helston, Cornwall, told The Daily Telegraph: "I thought I had better start talking to him before he starts attacking somebody else. I thought these people usually have a message so I said 'What do you want?'
"I asked him if he did it and he said 'Yes', and I said 'Why?' and he said because he has killed Muslim people in Muslim countries, he said he was a British solider and I said 'Really?'.
"I said 'Right now it is only you versus many people, you are going to lose, what would you like to do?'
"And he said 'I would like to stay and fight'."
Her confrontation emerged as other witnesses revealed details of the horrific machete attack.
Julia Wilders, who lives near the scene, said: "We were driving back and my husband said to me 'Don't look, they're resuscitating someone'. But apparently they were stabbing him."
She said she later saw one of the attackers run towards police clutching two meat cleavers.
"He ran towards police before they could even get out of the car, and it looked like the other one was going to lift the gun up," the 51-year-old said.
Others took to Twitter to describe the events, with one user, writing on the account @Boyadee, describing a female officer "taking out" one of the men "like Robocop".
Joe Tallant, 20, saw one man holding a gun and a knife, and another holding two knives. He described how he saw the victim on the floor and the men asking onlookers to call the police.
He said: "I looked on the floor and I saw a dead body and then I saw one of the men walking around the body."
When the officers arrived, Mr Tallant said the attackers "walked towards the police car with their weapons and a police lady jumped out and shot them both".
English Defence League supporters took to the streets of Woolwich and threw missiles at police after the suspected terrorist killing earlier in the day. Elsewhere, two men were arrested following separate attacks on mosques. + Show Spoiler [The Rest Of The Story] +
In Woolwich, a group of between 75 and 100 men gathered at The Queen's Arms pub on Burrage Grove, where they sang nationalist songs.
Sky News correspondent Alistair Bunkall, said: "A few missiles have been thrown, glass bottles and the like. The police have been trying to surround them and charging them as well with batons."
Earlier, two men were arrested following separate attacks on mosques in the hours following the suspected terrorist incident in southeast London.
A 43-year-old man is in custody on suspicion of attempted arson after reportedly walking into a mosque with a knife in Braintree, Essex.
Local MP Brooks Newmark tweeted: "Local mosque in Braintree attacked by man with knives and incendiary device. Man arrested. No one injured."
He added: "Just met with leaders of local mosque in Braintree which was attacked this evening. Thanked local police for their swift response."
Essex Police confirmed a 43-year-old from Braintree had been arrested on suspicion of possession of an offensive weapon and attempted arson after the incident in Silks Way at 7.15pm.
The secretary of the mosque, Sikander Saleemy, said: "The police said it's too early to try and link it to what happened in Woolwich, but those of us who were here feel that it was some sort of revenge attack. It was clear from the man's behaviour.
"We absolutely condemn what happened in Woolwich, but it had nothing to do with us.
"It was an appalling act of terror - but it wasn't "Islamic" in any way. I wish it wasn't described like that, because sadly people will now start to blame Muslims."
A police spokesman said they were investigating the "full circumstances" and said "it would not be appropriate to speculate at this time".
In Kent, police were called to reports of criminal damage at a mosque in Canterbury Street, Gillingham, at 8.40pm.
A spokesman said a man was in custody on suspicion of racially-aggravated criminal damage.
So English is not my native language and I don't quite know what to make of people throwing missiles. My years of gaming give me a weird idea about what kind of scene that is. What does that mean? Mafe said that we shouldn't watch the video. And I agree. Just as with things like school shootings and the Boston bombings the men who did it get so much air time that they become some sort of martyrs or anti-heroes for groups of extremists. And It creates a situation where future terrorists/monsters/lunatics know that their message will be heard around the world. And we'll all say: "this one is the worst he killed ... many people." And all the old murderers get resurrected for some deep analyses from some expert. We should keep this as local news. Some nut cases murdered a person. Don't get me wrong, I am shocked about what happened and couldn't believe it when I saw the murderer talking what it felt like directly to me. But these horrible people shouldn't get any more attention than they deserve. People get killed everywhere and we shouldn't hype this because it was exceptionally horribly lugubrious. We should let their message die with them (in a manner of speaking). They aren't worth it. Missiles is a term to describe any object propelled through the air through, for example, human or chemical volition. In this instance it is probably stones, coins, bottles etc. not RPGs.
To be fair, even as a resident of the UK, the first time I heard the word used in this way, I did wonder.
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On May 23 2013 13:58 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 13:16 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 23 2013 13:10 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:On May 23 2013 13:02 LittleRedBoy wrote:On May 23 2013 12:52 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 23 2013 12:43 LittleRedBoy wrote:
This attack has nothing to do with Islam or religion. The attacker himself said that he wanted David Cameron to call back British troops from Muslim countries like Afganistan. Further, he said that women in Muslim countries see attacks like those every day so it makes sense that he would be angry and want to get revenge. On May 23 2013 12:45 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2013 12:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Because if you think that then you'll support and demand wars in a whole manner of Muslim countries and then they can really get their Islam vs the West World War 3 show on the road that they're just waiting to kick off. I really don't think you watched the video at all. He was clearly frustrated at the indifference and even apathy of the British voting public to the ongoing conflicts that their government is involved in globally. If he wanted to make people afraid he could have killed a civilian, he didn't, he picked a soldier. A soldier dying isn't important, soldiers are supposed to die, it's the news equivalent of dog licks balls. This wasn't about fear, that was about getting a pedestal to shout his rant from. Watch the video of his rant. He's trying to stir up a debate about the morality of our involvement in those countries by using an act of inhumane violence as a parallel. It's a horrific act but one with a clear and singular purpose which I think you've completely missed. “We swear by Almighty Allah, we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. The only reasons we killed this man is because Muslims are dying daily. This British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. We apologize that woman had to see this today, but in our lands our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Yep, nothing to do with religion. It has more to do with people's family members being killed than it has to do with anything else. You seem to have left out the part where he says "tell [the British government] to bring our troops back so you can all live in peace." He explicitly says that if they remove their troops then these attacks won't happen. Too bad that's a lie isn't it. Well yes, obviously he's not in charge of all political and religious disputes everywhere, he doesn't have the power to go "it's alright now dudes on both sides, everyone calm down, we found a way to give the same land to both Palestinians and Israelis and to reconcile free speech with religious protection". However, while religion clearly influenced his decision and pervades his world view the points he were making were political. There is no denying there is a link but equally dismissing it as religious ignores the fact that everything he said was about politics. There is no distinction between politics and religion to an Islamic Fundamentalist. Religion and politics are not different spheres to this guy and people like them. There's no crossover, no overlap at work here, they are one and the same. You are completely missing them point here and applying a western world view to someone who doesn't at all see the world the way the west does. Nothing he said was related to religious fundamentalism. There was a degree of pan-Islamism in his Muslim brothers vs the west but he didn't suggest he wanted Sharia law, either over there or over here, or complain about insults to Islam or anything else. It was literally "stop killing Muslims", "I'm killing this soldier because it's an eye for an eye", "protest your government". He didn't even do a "the western non Muslim government is illegitimate because it's not Muslim" speech. He just objected to government policy foreign policy and called on the people to object to it. That's really, really non fundie. Probably the least zealous terrorist ever.
Perhaps we should wait to see the police inquiry relating to his motives before we reach conclusions.
They executed a man in cold blood with the intention of creating media attention.
On May 23 2013 19:34 BeiHuoJingHua wrote:
Zzz 150k people die everyday
And this one was a soldier, aka no big loss
Good thing he wasn't american or we wouldn't hear the end of it, just like boston..
What kind of bizarre reasoning is this.
How many people are beheaded when raising money for charity in a western country?
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On May 23 2013 19:15 Nekovivie wrote:
Send all the Muslims away, we don't want them in the UK
Everything like this is always religiously motivated and it's scary what is happening on our streets
WTF?
What scares me more is your attitude...
You want to send EVERY Muslim away because of the actions of a few? No thanks, I won't buy into your philosophy.
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On May 23 2013 19:28 Sjokola wrote:
So English is not my native language and I don't quite know what to make of people throwing missiles. My years of gaming give me a weird idea about what kind of scene that is. What does that mean?
Mafe said that we shouldn't watch the video. And I agree. Just as with things like school shootings and the Boston bombings the men who did it get so much air time that they become some sort of martyrs or anti-heroes for groups of extremists. And It creates a situation where future terrorists/monsters/lunatics know that their message will be heard around the world. And we'll all say: "this one is the worst he killed ... many people." And all the old murderers get resurrected for some deep analyses from some expert.
We should keep this as local news. Some nut cases murdered a person. Don't get me wrong, I am shocked about what happened and couldn't believe it when I saw the murderer talking what it felt like directly to me. But these horrible people shouldn't get any more attention than they deserve. People get killed everywhere and we shouldn't hype this because it was exceptionally horribly lugubrious. We should let their message die with them (in a manner of speaking).
They aren't worth it.
It just means stones, bottles, random crap. Anything that gets thrown could be classified as a missile.
I completely agree with the rest of what you say.
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United States43868 Posts
On May 23 2013 19:33 Goozen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 19:22 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2013 19:03 Psychobabas wrote:
Some people on this thread actually trying to defend these animals by saying stuff like "oh well they were just crazy", "this shouldn't be classified as a terrorist attack", "this wasn't religiously motivated". It's sickening, even more so if you're British. Based upon the fact that the brief manifesto he offered blamed policy decisions, demanded political change and offered a policy solution to avoid further attacks I would say that it was very, very explicitly political. The guy was religious but what he demanded was British troops withdrawing from Muslim nations rather than everyone converting to Islam. His demands were not religious, he even called for the people not to re-elect David Cameron, they were political statements. What he did was in essence no different than a nutjob member of the Animal Liberation Front who believed with a religious fervour that all living things are an equal in the eyes of Gaia executing a scientist who tested on animals, demanding a government ban on animal testing and calling for the people to oppose their government. You wouldn't classify that as pantheistic terrorism, you'd say it was an animal rights nutter. Likewise this isn't Islamic terrorism, this is an anti military intervention in the Muslim world nutter. Im not so sure, you need to remember that Islam is also a political movement, not just religious. He was motivated with claims that people of his religion was being attacked. The Gurdian even says that he said: "We want to start a war in london tonight". He saw the 2 sides as Muslims and British/ Non Muslims. In this case you can't separate religion and politics as they are entwined.
Absolutely, his religious ideology helped shape his world view and supported his feelings of solidarity with the people suffering in Iraq and Afghanistan. He cared about the policies in question because of his religion. But the specifics were strictly political. I think it's kind of interesting in that regard actually because it reflects the British influence on his world view, it wasn't bland "all those who insult Islam must die, Allah is the one true God and we will convert you by the sword" or anything like that, if he felt that he didn't see the need to shout it from his spotlight. He was speaking to people familiar with the politics about the politics, if his hands had been cleaner he could have been down the pub.
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