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Bitcoin discussion thread - Page 47

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Chrono000
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Korea (South)358 Posts
December 17 2017 11:30 GMT
#921
On December 17 2017 20:21 zvx wrote:
not that simple guys.

there are many reason why BTC has gone up but for the most recent reason you can read about it here: https://medium.com/xraytrade/bitcoin-futures-arriving-at-the-cme-9ad484d7b7f2

its about to get much bigger and more complicated so anyone that is curious should least read up about it before brushing it off as a bubble again and again.



this article shows how much the industry has evolved. Next level is wall street money who knows how far it will be pushed once they start trading BTC. 18th december guys its the beginning a huge bull run me thinks.
LemOn
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United Kingdom8629 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-17 11:49:33
December 17 2017 11:48 GMT
#922
I find it funny how Bitcoin dominates the news with its measly couple hundreds bn marketcap

But every single US stock index shows clear signs that a big correction is coming , and those are worth trillions and will have huge impacts on everyome.

The question is what happens to Bitcoin when stock markets collapse - is it going to go down with them
Or will it actually have a positive effect ?
Much is the father figure that I miss in my life. Go Daddy! DoC.LemOn, LemOn[5thF]
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6248 Posts
December 17 2017 11:50 GMT
#923
FINANCIAL markets rarely miss opportunities to make money. That is as true of cryptocurrencies as anything else. Trading in bitcoin futures began on the Cboe Global Markets this week; CME Group will launch its own futures on December 18th (see article). That has given a further boost to the digital currency’s price, which is up by 1,550% this year. Such phenomenal returns are drawing in waves of speculative money. But is there a fundamental case to invest in bitcoin?

The usual tools of finance are no guide. An equity is a claim on the assets and the profits of a firm; a bond entitles the investor to a series of interest payments and repayment on maturity. Bitcoin brings no cashflows to the owner; the only return will come via a rise in price. When there is no obvious way of valuing an asset, it is hard to say that one target price is less likely than another. Bitcoin could be worth $10 or $100,000.

Instead, investors must weigh the scenarios that enthusiasts posit: what if, say, every pension fund invested 1% of its portfolio in the cryptocurrency? One argument made by bitcoinnoisseurs is that it is a type of “digital gold”. Stores of value are supposed to keep their value; bitcoin, by contrast, is extremely volatile. Its code ensures that no more than 21m coins can ever be created; that sets bitcoin apart from fiat money, which central banks can create at will. Yet being limited in supply is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for having value; signed photographs of Economist journalists are rare but, sadly, of negligible worth. Nor is supply really limited. Plenty of other cryptocurrencies exist.

Might bitcoin replace ordinary currencies in everyday transactions? Not soon. Who wants to part with (or accept in exchange) a currency that can rise or fall by 20% in an hour? And true currencies are used to denominate liabilities as well as assets; imagine the ruin faced by those who had taken out a bitcoin mortgage or business loan earlier this year.

Bitcoin might triumph if currencies like the dollar and the euro succumb to hyperinflation, but there is no sign of that. A more likely scenario is that the technology that underpins bitcoin—a distributed ledger called the blockchain—proves so useful that it becomes widely adopted. If so, bitcoin would become a vehicle for other services, and people would need to own some, or a fraction of one, to use them. But the original appeal of bitcoin was to the libertarian fringe and those who wanted to trade illegal commodities, like drugs, out of sight of the authorities. Bitcoin’s anonymity and opacity do not much appeal to big banks (or to their regulators). They are developing their own blockchains.

Hysteria on all fronts

If the bitcoin boom looks like a mania, calls for it to be banned are also over the top. Regulators are right to watch “initial coin offerings”—attempts by companies to raise money by issuing digital tokens of their own. They are right, too, to warn retail investors about the dangers of a thinly traded market for an asset with no inherent value and scant recourse if things go wrong. But it is hard to see how the currency is a source of systemic risk; by one measure, the value of bitcoin is less than half that of Apple’s market capitalisation. Real economic damage occurs when a plunge in asset prices is combined with the widespread use of money that has been borrowed, particularly by banks. These elements are not yet present.

For those who believe that cryptocurrencies could be the next big thing, buying bitcoin is like an option contract: it might just pay off. For everyone else, the wise course is to watch. Investors have had a lot of fun piling into bitcoin; the real test will come when they suddenly need to get out again.

www.economist.com
This is a better article about bitcoin than that blog.
Chrono000
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Korea (South)358 Posts
December 17 2017 12:10 GMT
#924
On December 17 2017 20:48 LemOn wrote:
I find it funny how Bitcoin dominates the news with its measly couple hundreds bn marketcap

But every single US stock index shows clear signs that a big correction is coming , and those are worth trillions and will have huge impacts on everyome.

The question is what happens to Bitcoin when stock markets collapse - is it going to go down with them
Or will it actually have a positive effect ?



btc will go up if the stocks fall imo
LemOn
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United Kingdom8629 Posts
December 17 2017 23:47 GMT
#925
That Economist article seems like they wrote it to write something, lacking any substance
And I am a fan of The Economist and was an actual paper copy subscriber at one point
Much is the father figure that I miss in my life. Go Daddy! DoC.LemOn, LemOn[5thF]
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15723 Posts
December 19 2017 19:08 GMT
#926
On December 17 2017 21:10 Chrono000 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2017 20:48 LemOn wrote:
I find it funny how Bitcoin dominates the news with its measly couple hundreds bn marketcap

But every single US stock index shows clear signs that a big correction is coming , and those are worth trillions and will have huge impacts on everyome.

The question is what happens to Bitcoin when stock markets collapse - is it going to go down with them
Or will it actually have a positive effect ?



btc will go up if the stocks fall imo


Agreed. What we are seeing is a new form of diversification. Similar to how LTC/Eth go up when BTC goes down, I think coins as a whole will benefit tremendously when Wall st markets show their volatility and struggle.
fishjie
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1519 Posts
December 19 2017 23:22 GMT
#927
On December 15 2017 01:11 Jan1997 wrote:
I read in my local news that some people are taking up huge loans to buy bitcoin with the hopes that the value will increase tremendousely soon but that just seems too risky. If you lose like that you lose bigtime and if you go bankrupt nobody can help you either cause you own nothing of value equivalent to what you owe.

But then again if you take up a 100k loan and buy BC and the value goes from 15k to 60k over time you're in it pretty good.

Anybody thinking of doing this? :p


its people like this that are causing the rapid increase in bitcoin. they're just speculators and they're gonna get pwned. the latest video i saw with ray dalio was pretty good - he said it is a bubble right now, but long term it will be good. i think currently bubble driven by speculators, and it will pop, but if you HODL for 10-20 years it will be good. but don't sell your house.
Chrono000
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Korea (South)358 Posts
December 20 2017 10:54 GMT
#928
On December 20 2017 08:22 fishjie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2017 01:11 Jan1997 wrote:
I read in my local news that some people are taking up huge loans to buy bitcoin with the hopes that the value will increase tremendousely soon but that just seems too risky. If you lose like that you lose bigtime and if you go bankrupt nobody can help you either cause you own nothing of value equivalent to what you owe.

But then again if you take up a 100k loan and buy BC and the value goes from 15k to 60k over time you're in it pretty good.

Anybody thinking of doing this? :p


its people like this that are causing the rapid increase in bitcoin. they're just speculators and they're gonna get pwned. the latest video i saw with ray dalio was pretty good - he said it is a bubble right now, but long term it will be good. i think currently bubble driven by speculators, and it will pop, but if you HODL for 10-20 years it will be good. but don't sell your house.


right i been in this awhile and its always hard to know where you are in the 'bubble' call me a crazy but i dont think this is a bubble
riotjune
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States3394 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-20 13:36:20
December 20 2017 13:28 GMT
#929
What's with those huge dips last night? That's some serious insider trading going on.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43211 Posts
December 20 2017 14:15 GMT
#930
It's absolutely a bubble, the problem is the value it eventually settles upon may actually be higher than the current value, despite the speculative bubble.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15723 Posts
December 20 2017 15:41 GMT
#931
On December 20 2017 23:15 KwarK wrote:
It's absolutely a bubble, the problem is the value it eventually settles upon may actually be higher than the current value, despite the speculative bubble.

It's a series of bubbles with an entirely great future. It's weird. I intend to let my btc sit for at least a year.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43211 Posts
December 20 2017 15:54 GMT
#932
Imo important thing to recognize is that the innate value of the tech and the market price of assets perceived to be related to that tech are basically non correlated during a period of speculative mania. That's what we saw during the dot com bubble, the people who could see how the internet was going to take over our lives and change everything were right about that, but that didn't mean that Geocities was worth billions. It's incredibly hard to judge the value of an asset beyond what you think someone else may pay you for it and during a bubble that means things get messy.

The tech will most likely take off, some kind of digital money was always going to simply because we're all holding advanced networked computers in our pockets that make cash obsolete. Cryptographically secured decentralized ledgers are a very elegant solution to how to apply that. And for people who are underbanked, or whose governments are failing to provide an effective currency of their own, that's really useful.

But none of that implies any specific valuation to any particular cryptocurrency. I'm a believer, but I'm also just here for the bubble. If cryptocurrencies do take off there is absolutely no reason why you simply couldn't transition from one to the other over time as your needs change. Believing that it'll be useful as a currency one day does not make it rational to exchange an actual useful currency for it today. The only reason to buy cryptocurrencies right now, outside of living in Venezuela or whatever, is speculation.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
aseq
Profile Joined January 2003
Netherlands3987 Posts
December 20 2017 18:48 GMT
#933
Well said, Kwark! Speculation is all it is for me at the moment too. It's miles away from being a usable currency, and it's hard to predict which coin is going to do that well in the future. Scaling isn't really solved by any of the current (big) coins, that's probably one of the top tech priorities.

fishjie
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1519 Posts
December 20 2017 22:59 GMT
#934
On December 20 2017 23:15 KwarK wrote:
It's absolutely a bubble, the problem is the value it eventually settles upon may actually be higher than the current value, despite the speculative bubble.


right exactly, the bubble will probably burst multiple times, but in a coupla years, one of the cryptos, or probably several are gonna be worth lots
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43211 Posts
December 22 2017 07:34 GMT
#935
*worth something

Could be way less than they're worth now. The crypto in use might not even exist yet.
Hell, it might be government issued and tied to a fiat currency being phased out.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43211 Posts
December 22 2017 07:34 GMT
#936
Also the dip is here, hold onto your hats people.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
arbiter_md
Profile Joined February 2008
Moldova1219 Posts
December 22 2017 08:22 GMT
#937
There are two big problems with crypto-currencies:
1. The mining and transfers consuming a lot of energy is a huge hit for the environment.
2. As result of 1'st, the transfers are expensive.

The original idea of electronic currency was to avoid the bank fees on transfers and the risks associated with the money management by the banks in general. As the situations stands now, the money flow is much more expensive than what banks do.

All this bubble is a big blow to the efforts of saving the environment and they really should think of something to fix these problems. Until then that system can't fly.
The copyright of this post belongs solely to me. Nobody else, not teamliquid, not greetech and not even blizzard have any share of this copyright. You can copy, distribute, use in commercial purposes the content of this post or parts of it freely.
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
December 22 2017 08:48 GMT
#938
On December 22 2017 16:34 KwarK wrote:
Also the dip is here, hold onto your hats people.


BUY
THE
DIP!!!!!!!!!!!!
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
Hanh
Profile Joined June 2016
146 Posts
December 22 2017 09:16 GMT
#939
On December 22 2017 17:22 arbiter_md wrote:
There are two big problems with crypto-currencies:
1. The mining and transfers consuming a lot of energy is a huge hit for the environment.
2. As result of 1'st, the transfers are expensive.

The original idea of electronic currency was to avoid the bank fees on transfers and the risks associated with the money management by the banks in general. As the situations stands now, the money flow is much more expensive than what banks do.

All this bubble is a big blow to the efforts of saving the environment and they really should think of something to fix these problems. Until then that system can't fly.


- Bitcoin is worth a lot of $$$ now --> miners jump on --> difficulty goes up ---> more energy needed to mine
- Bitcoin was not meant to be the day to day currency. The fees aren't high if you transfer ~BTC range. For smaller transactions, you have payment networks and altcoins.
- TPS is too low for all but centralized / consortium coins. You can't have decentralization and high speed.
Laurens
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium4550 Posts
December 22 2017 10:12 GMT
#940
On December 22 2017 16:34 KwarK wrote:
Also the dip is here, hold onto your hats people.


Already going back up.
Dip over?
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