"The Great Gatsby is a novel by American author F. Scott Fitzgerald. The story takes place in 1922, during the Roaring Twenties, a time of prosperity in the United States after World War I. The book received critical acclaim and is generally considered Fitzgerald's best work. It is also widely regarded as a "Great American Novel" and a literary classic, capturing the essence of an era. The Modern Library named it the second best English language novel of the 20th century"
I will post a paragraph at a time - you read it a sentence at a time and try to find meaning beyond the words. It is important to, read it slow, a row a minute is good, and share what it stirs in you . We start at the beginning and let's see where it takes us. Maybe a page, maybe a chapter, maybe more. Topic will be updated with the most recent passage Chapter 1 - part 4 My family have been prominent, well-to-do people in this middle-western city for three generations. The Carraways are something of a clan and we have a tradition that we're descended from the Dukes of Buccleuch, but the actual founder of my line was my grandfather's brother who came here in fifty-one, sent a substitute to the Civil War and started the wholesale hardware business that my father carries on today.
I never saw this great-uncle but I'm supposed to look like him--with special reference to the rather hard-boiled painting that hangs in Father's office. I graduated from New Haven in 1915, just a quarter of a century after my father, and a little later I participated in that delayed Teutonic migration known as the Great War. I enjoyed the counter-raid so thoroughly that I came back restless. Instead of being the warm center of the world the middle-west now seemed like the ragged edge of the universe--so I decided to go east and learn the bond business. Everybody I knew was in the bond business so I supposed it could support one more single man. All my aunts and uncles talked it over as if they were choosing a prep-school for me and finally said, "Why--ye-es" with very grave, hesitant faces. Father agreed to finance me for a year and after various delays I came east, permanently, I thought, in the spring of twenty-two.
Discussion about this part (starts at page 4) Chapter 1 - part 3 And, after boasting this way of my tolerance, I come to the admission that it has a limit. Conduct may be founded on the hard rock or the wet marshes but after a certain point I don't care what it's founded on. When I came back from the East last autumn I felt that I wanted the world to be in uniform and at a sort of moral attention forever; I wanted no more riotous excursions with privileged glimpses into the human heart. Only Gatsby, the man who gives his name to this book, was exempt from my reaction--Gatsby who represented everything for which I have an unaffected scorn. If personality is an unbroken series of successful gestures, then there was something gorgeous about him, some heightened sensitivity to the promises of life, as if he were related to one of those intricate machines that register earthquakes ten thousand miles away. This responsiveness had nothing to do with that flabby impressionability which is dignified under the name of the "creative temperament"--it was an extraordinary gift for hope, a romantic readiness such as I have never found in any other person and which it is not likely I shall ever find again. No--Gatsby turned out all right at the end; it is what preyed on Gatsby, what foul dust floated in the wake of his dreams that temporarily closed out my interest in the abortive sorrows and short-winded elations of men.
In my younger and more vulnerable years my father gave me some advice that I've been turning over in my mind ever since.
"Whenever you feel like criticizing any one," he told me, "just remember that all the people in this world haven't had the advantages that you've had."
He didn't say any more but we've always been unusually communicative in a reserved way, and I understood that he meant a great deal more than that. In consequence I'm inclined to reserve all judgments, a habit that has opened up many curious natures to me and also made me the victim of not a few veteran bores. The abnormal mind is quick to detect and attach itself to this quality when it appears in a normal person, and so it came about that in college I was unjustly accused of being a politician, because I was privy to the secret griefs of wild, unknown men. Most of the confidences were unsought--frequently I have feigned sleep, preoccupation, or a hostile levity when I realized by some unmistakable sign that an intimate revelation was quivering on the horizon--for the intimate revelations of young men or at least the terms in which they express them are usually plagiaristic and marred by obvious suppressions. Reserving judgments is a matter of infinite hope. I am still a little afraid of missing something if I forget that, as my father snobbishly suggested, and I snobbishly repeat a sense of the fundamental decencies is parcelled out unequally at birth.
Discussion about this part (starts on page 2) The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald Chapter 1 part 1 (introductory poem)
Then wear the gold hat, if that will move her; If you can bounce high, bounce for her too, Till she cry "Lover, gold-hatted, high-bouncing lover, I must have you!"
--THOMAS PARKE D'INVILLIERS
What it means to me: The gold hat, a symbol for an attribute that will interest the woman. Something that will move her in your direction. Once together, enjoy each other and not holding back. To bounce for her as well. To be the man that she desires. A gold-hatted, high-bouncing lover, there for her pleasure, that is the start - a beautiful meeting and an awoken desire in the woman. Doesn't have to lead anywhere else - memories are created for life
Sounds to me like the poem is describing a man who will do anything for a specific woman he desires. Could it portend a recurring theme that will present itself later in the book?
Man, if I had a gold hat, I'd just sell it. Gold hats are expensive, unless they are really small gold hats, in which case they aren't usually worth as much. I say usually because there is a point from which the smallness begins to increase its value. Have you ever seen a microscopic gold hat? That would probably sell for more than a medium sized one.
Anyways, I think it means about what you said it means.
A gold hat sounds heavy, and awkward... let alone bouncing in one. Gold could be an attraction, but bouncing? Something seems off on current conclusions I think. :D
Problem with this is that very often in GUD LIT, things only make sense once all put together. A sentence may only have meaning once you have context. Who knows what the symbolism is for until you know what happens! I like the idea though, it's just like those shitty English classes in high school. You'd just bullshit some story up and receive A's.
Gatsby is about a guy trying to obtain the wealth and status to catch the eye of an upper class girl. That poem fits well with the theme. The gold hat is like wealth and bouncing high is like the stature that comes with it. It's really about a guy just doing whatever he can to get the girl he can't have. Great story about how shallow people are and how hollow the American dream actually is sometimes.
If you don't know what happens to Gatsby, and knowledge of the novel, this poem wouldn't make any sense. As it is, it shows how Gatsby will modify himself to suit Daisy.
Then wear the gold hat, if that will move her;
Show off your money if that will sway her,
If you can bounce high, bounce for her too,
If you are strong, show off for her (as that may sway her too) Till she cry "Lover, gold-hatted, high-bouncing lover, I must have you!"
On March 08 2013 17:35 Larkin wrote: Conflating the attraction to women with the one to money, aka what the book is about.
Great Gatsby is a good read, hope you guys enjoy it (lit student here).
Or drawing stark differences between the attraction to money and the attraction to women. It's the double view that they are simultaneously apart (think: his feelings for her is real, but he points to possessions to show it). It's their forever union, then difference, love in the world of money. Can you marry for love the socially advanced with the backdrop of new wealth? I hadn't seen a book with the male protagonist attempting this before.
What strikes me is how the woman is attracted to the flashy outside of the man and not his innate personality. The attraction is conditional, and it will only last for as long as he wears his 'golden hat' and 'bounces' around for her.
Its a great book, really great book. Its basically about a guy named Gatsby that does anything possible to inflate his status and impress a beautiful lady (daisy), but then once he finally gets her..
*Semi-spoiler alert beyond this point*
Once he finally gets her, he basically realizes it wasn't everything he thought it would be.. When you spend so much time obsessing and pursuing someone, once you actually get them, its a bit of a let-down and you're kind of left after that like "okay, what now?", and you no longer have anything left to work for. He was after the thrill of the chase, "capture the prey" feeling, more than anything. Its something you can relate to if you've ever gone for a girl/guy really hard in life, you sub-consciously build up this image of them as larger than life and perfect.. Then once you finally get them, it all changes.
I got The Great Gatsby for christmas this year and haven't started reading it yet. Now i'll definitely read it together with you guys and gals. Let's begin !
Lot's of great, great responses and great discussion. Happy to see so many responses. That a gold hat would be literally heavy gave me an insight I didn't have before hehe Chapter 1 - part 2
In my younger and more vulnerable years my father gave me some advice that I've been turning over in my mind ever since.
"Whenever you feel like criticizing any one," he told me, "just remember that all the people in this world haven't had the advantages that you've had."
He didn't say any more but we've always been unusually communicative in a reserved way, and I understood that he meant a great deal more than that. In consequence I'm inclined to reserve all judgments, a habit that has opened up many curious natures to me and also made me the victim of not a few veteran bores. The abnormal mind is quick to detect and attach itself to this quality when it appears in a normal person, and so it came about that in college I was unjustly accused of being a politician, because I was privy to the secret griefs of wild, unknown men. Most of the confidences were unsought--frequently I have feigned sleep, preoccupation, or a hostile levity when I realized by some unmistakable sign that an intimate revelation was quivering on the horizon--for the intimate revelations of young men or at least the terms in which they express them are usually plagiaristic and marred by obvious suppressions. Reserving judgments is a matter of infinite hope. I am still a little afraid of missing something if I forget that, as my father snobbishly suggested, and I snobbishly repeat a sense of the fundamental decencies is parcelled out unequally at birth.
From the first few sentences I gather that he held his father in great esteem, but that his father was more distant than he is willing to admit to himself. Being “unusually communicative in a reserved way” suggest that he re-interpreted his fathers actions to suit his ideal of the father. He reserves all judgments following his fathers advice and becomes popular amongst a certain kind of wild unknown men. Yet he harbors contempt for them and criticizes them, going against his fathers advice without being aware of it. (And who are these wild men?) He harbors hope that one day these wild men will see the error in their ways and change. ("Reserving judgments is a matter of infinite hope") But what the father says in the last sentence isn't about reserving judgment – it states that people are just born differently. It could mean that everyone is born with deficiencies – but the snobbish tone suggests some are better than others by nature, and that the main character has misunderstood him.
"He didn't say any more but we've always been unusually communicative in a reserved way, and I understood that he meant a great deal more than that."
"for the intimate revelations of young men or at least the terms in which they express them are usually plagiaristic and marred by obvious suppressions."
I think Fitzgerald was being ironic here. The narrator is revealing that his father were distant, but he is suppressing it by saying that they, nevertheless, were "unusually communicative", which shows how he's not that different from the "wild men" after all.
"Most of the confidences were unsought--frequently I have feigned sleep, preoccupation, or a hostile levity when I realized by some unmistakable sign that an intimate revelation was quivering on the horizon[...]"
Knowing some of the plot of the book in advance I would also say this paragraph shows the contrast between the actions Gatsby takes and the narrator's views on social relations
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Great topic, reading a book slowly and analising everything really shows how genius these authors were.
edit: Thanks riptide, I thought Gatsby was the narrator.
At first I was thinking "Grapes of Wrath" story and not "Great Gatsby". Thought we were gonna be reading about slow street crossing turtles. I'll follow this allong though, maybe I will appreciate it more then I did in high school.
Woohoo white privilege! If you read it like that Fitzgerald was ahead of his time (or really right at the time, along with Virginia Woolf, for that kind of social commentary) though this is more about the "American Dream".
Keep the relationship with his father and his "privelege" in mind as the story progresses, see whether it holds true or is anything but what Nick thinks it is.
I discussed this in school years ago, but didn't grasp the 'greatness' of it. (Probably due to laziness etc.) Maybe I should re-read.. will keep an eye on this.
On March 08 2013 20:42 Emon_ wrote: Lot's of great, great responses and great discussion. Happy to see so many responses. That a gold hat would be literally heavy gave me an insight I didn't have before hehe
Haha, well I was always terribad at English Lit, but I first thought maybe it signified a heavy conscious (or guilt), and bouncing meant a carefree spirit. In other words have a guilty, but carefree attitude to attract the girl (a self-contradicting lunatic- girls like the bad boys). Maybe the author is on to something here... :D
I always wished that this was more of an art form where there are no wrong answers and is up to perception and everyone sees something different, but usually end up disappointed that it isn't really the case. I always felt more comfrortable in math and science than being the class clown in Lit lol.
On an unrelated note. I have always imagined Gatsby to be a black person. For this reason I don't know how I will be able to enjoy the movie with Leo Di Caprio playing the man.
On March 08 2013 17:52 Homework wrote: If you don't know what happens to Gatsby, and knowledge of the novel, this poem wouldn't make any sense. As it is, it shows how Gatsby will modify himself to suit Daisy.
Then wear the gold hat, if that will move her;
Show off your money if that will sway her,
If you can bounce high, bounce for her too,
If you are strong, show off for her (as that may sway her too) Till she cry "Lover, gold-hatted, high-bouncing lover, I must have you!"
Until she buys it and you get the girl.
I think that the second line, particularly "bounce," has a specific definition in the context of the time it was written. While it can mean strength, to me it also means initiative, charisma, doing all kinds of different things (business wheeling and dealing, mostly) that capture the attention and admiration of "old money" so you do not get lumped in with the rest of the nouveau riche, or worse, just another common man (aka nobody and probably a lazy bum to the old money folks).
On March 08 2013 16:06 Emon_ wrote: The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald Chapter 1 part 1 (introductory poem)
Then wear the gold hat, if that will move her; If you can bounce high, bounce for her too, Till she cry "Lover, gold-hatted, high-bouncing lover, I must have you!"
--THOMAS PARKE D'INVILLIERS
here's mine:
Gold hat =
gold : wealth
hat: highly visible status you choose to put on that everybody can see
So together, gold hat = prominent display of financial status
"if you can bounce high, bounce for her too"
since we're already operating in dimensions of symbols that relate to height, i think bounce can be reasonably interpreted as social class/status. so get in a high of a social class as you can, then do it for her too (as in raise her social class).
the thing about bouncing is that when you bounce, you come back down too. so when she says "high-bouncing" it implies either you gotta stay in the "high" bracket, or consistently bounce "high"
so when she says "i must have you!" it means to get "her" you must have high social status, that is what will make her want you
On March 09 2013 03:48 oneofthem wrote: that poem is not that complicated. all it says is this, i'll do anything for this girl. and also this girl has some weird materialistic taste.
THIS is why I always had more interest in math and science. English Lit always ended up being a great buzzkill for me lol. Still interesting to ponder other possibilities and try to make it more complex than it probably is though. :D
On March 09 2013 03:48 oneofthem wrote: that poem is not that complicated. all it says is this, i'll do anything for this girl. and also this girl has some weird materialistic taste.
THIS is why I always had more interest in math and science. English Lit always ended up being a great buzzkill for me lol. Still interesting to ponder other possibilities and try to make it more complex than it probably is though. :D
You have more interest in math and science because The Great Gatsby is really not that difficult to understand? If you have not read books that you need to try and make less complex, then you need to read some more books!
Don't misunderstand me, Fitzgerald is par for the course
On March 09 2013 03:48 oneofthem wrote: that poem is not that complicated. all it says is this, i'll do anything for this girl. and also this girl has some weird materialistic taste.
If you want to simplify its meaning down to such a shallow level which the author probably did not intend, feel free, but you're going to miss out on a lot if that's the way you approach reading.
On March 09 2013 03:48 oneofthem wrote: that poem is not that complicated. all it says is this, i'll do anything for this girl. and also this girl has some weird materialistic taste.
If you want to simplify its meaning down to such a shallow level which the author probably did not intend, feel free, but you're going to miss out on a lot if that's the way you approach reading.
i think he's right in this case, though. fitzgerald's symbolism was always very straightforward. Plus, he does not yet have any context to get any more from the poem.
If you look at it that way, he's looking at the poem with no context, I'd agree. But at the time it was published, people would not have had to read the rest of the book to get the context of the poem, they'd have lived it. So I still think that he's simplifying it too much. And Fitzgerald's symbolism is pretty straightforward, but I don't think that my interpretation isn't straightforward, it's all in the narrow context of the rich of the time.
John Green did 2 episodes of Crash Course focusing on The Great Gatsby, they are very insightful. He also gives a perspective we dont usually see in literature analysis, that of an award winning author.
interesting to see all the analysis for this poem. I've read about authors who said they wrote something for no other reason than because they wanted to, yet I see many people looking for deeper meanings, creating multiple layers of depth. I guess that's what makes literature so interesting, because some folks enjoy it and/or glean much from it from the surface while others add their own depth to it, making the story "their own". But to each his own. I'm going to follow this topic closely just for the responses.
I'm in! Read this book in HS like 8~9 years ago and don't remember a thing
OP, may I suggest that you update the original post every time you post a new segment? So, that people can come on board easily whenever and for easy access just in general?
On March 09 2013 04:42 DeepElemBlues wrote: If you look at it that way, he's looking at the poem with no context, I'd agree. But at the time it was published, people would not have had to read the rest of the book to get the context of the poem, they'd have lived it. So I still think that he's simplifying it too much. And Fitzgerald's symbolism is pretty straightforward, but I don't think that my interpretation isn't straightforward, it's all in the narrow context of the rich of the time.
i knwo the context fine. that's why i added the materialist part. without the 20's cultural context that is unfounded. it could be a book about greek gods for all i know
"He didn't say any more but we've always been unusually communicative in a reserved way, and I understood that he meant a great deal more than that."
"for the intimate revelations of young men or at least the terms in which they express them are usually plagiaristic and marred by obvious suppressions."
I think Fitzgerald was being ironic here. The narrator is revealing that his father were distant, but he is suppressing it by saying that they, nevertheless, were "unusually communicative", which shows how he's not that different from the "wild men" after all.
I got a very different impression from reading the passage, I thought it meant that while he may not have talked much with his father, their conversations went very deep and covered important topics. I see no other proof (thus far) that they were actually distant.
On March 09 2013 04:42 DeepElemBlues wrote: If you look at it that way, he's looking at the poem with no context, I'd agree. But at the time it was published, people would not have had to read the rest of the book to get the context of the poem, they'd have lived it. So I still think that he's simplifying it too much. And Fitzgerald's symbolism is pretty straightforward, but I don't think that my interpretation isn't straightforward, it's all in the narrow context of the rich of the time.
i knwo the context fine. that's why i added the materialist part. without the 20's cultural context that is unfounded. it could be a book about greek gods for all i know
Well what I'm saying is that the materialist/materialistic part is not the entirety of the story in the poem as a whole or in that particular line.
A really good novel. I think the poem is an ironic foreshadowing that to win someone over you need to emulate what care about. Another important thing about the novel and the context of the time period is that there is a heavy focus on the difference between new and old money.
My teacher showed this "rap" to us in my English class about this novel. The song is kind of a guilty pleasure of mine.
My favorite literary period is from the 1900s-20s, but I've never read this book.
It's interesting to me that the narrator chooses the word "vulnerable" to describe his youth. To me that means that something like a betrayal draws a divide between who he is now and who he was when he was younger. Clearly he's taken ownership of his father's advice by claiming it to hold additional meaning.
That last sentence is such a bear to parse out the meaning. "Fundamental decencies" is a greatly subjective term, which no doubt ties in with his interpretation of his father's advice. For the moment I feel that is open accepting personality has attracted a type of person he'd rather do without and this may have deprived him of the high society where he sees himself belonging.
The 20s (when the great gatsby takes place) are often known as the "gilded age" as they looked good on the surface, but there were stirring problems in society that would eventually lead to the Great Depression. I think the "gold hat" is this golden gilding hiding the underlying problems. The "bouncing higher" is living the high life of the "roaring 20s" that will eventually come crashing down at the end of the decade.
For the first text part:
Nothing jumps out at me as exceptionally symbolic. Having read this book before (years ago) I know the main character becomes privy to some very personal stuff, so I just read this as a set-up for explaining why Gatsby lets him in on all that will happen later. It makes the story that is about to be told a little more believable, as the narrator appears to have "experience" with these sorts of things.
On March 09 2013 06:42 HardlyNever wrote: For the gold hat poem:
The 20s (when the great gatsby takes place) are often known as the "gilded age" as they looked good on the surface, but there were stirring problems in society that would eventually lead to the Great Depression. I think the "gold hat" is this golden gilding hiding the underlying problems. The "bouncing higher" is living the high life of the "roaring 20s" that will eventually come crashing down at the end of the decade.
For the first text part:
Nothing jumps out at me as exceptionally symbolic. Having read this book before (years ago) I know the main character becomes privy to some very personal stuff, so I just read this as a set-up for explaining why Gatsby lets him in on all that will happen later. It makes the story that is about to be told a little more believable, as the narrator appears to have "experience" with these sorts of things.
Gilded Age was actually the 1870s-1900 when industrialization was being used to positively portray America's course while hiding the increasing labor injustices it spawned. In fact the "gilded age" was already a trope of sorts by the time Fitzgerald wrote this novel.
I agree with the gold hat. But bouncing high seems to me to be more of an energy / vibe thing. As in, if you can bring your energy up to a really high positive fun level, then bring her up too. Wealth + feelgoodvibes = women.
Then wear the gold hat, if that will move her; >Show your status/wealth, if that's what it takes to get her to want you
If you can bounce high, bounce for her too, >If you are part of high society, show it off to her
Till she cry "Lover, gold-hatted, high-bouncing lover, I must have you!" >Until she wants you.
Honestly the poem makes little sense. If it's what I said above, why would the person being preached to need to be told to "bounce" and "wear the gold hat"? Why would someone not already be doing that? It sounds like it's trying to convince someone who is high-status/wealthy but pretending to not be to reveal himself in order to get the girl's desire. Perhaps it's written for someone who is hiding his wealth and connections and trying to get a girl, but is failing? That's an interesting quandary to be in. Do you reveal your wealth/connections and have her suddenly love you, making her a golddigger/status-whore, or do you move on/keep wealth hidden? Poem says the former.
On March 09 2013 03:48 oneofthem wrote: that poem is not that complicated. all it says is this, i'll do anything for this girl. and also this girl has some weird materialistic taste.
If you want to simplify its meaning down to such a shallow level which the author probably did not intend, feel free, but you're going to miss out on a lot if that's the way you approach reading.
i think he's right in this case, though. fitzgerald's symbolism was always very straightforward. Plus, he does not yet have any context to get any more from the poem.
He's already wrong. The poem is written as an argument to someone else (or to any reader). It's not "I'll do anything," it's "if you have wealth and connections, show it if that's what it takes to get her." This also necessitates the question of why someone would need to be told this - if you're wealthy and connected, why would someone need to tell you to show it? That implies that this is written for someone who is hiding his wealth and connections but unable to get the girl without revealing what he has.
If you can't infer that much from the poem you SHOULD stick to math and science. It's pretty obvious assuming the meaning of "bounce" and "gold hat" is what I think it is.
Chapter 1 - part 3 And, after boasting this way of my tolerance, I come to the admission that it has a limit. Conduct may be founded on the hard rock or the wet marshes but after a certain point I don't care what it's founded on. When I came back from the East last autumn I felt that I wanted the world to be in uniform and at a sort of moral attention forever; I wanted no more riotous excursions with privileged glimpses into the human heart. Only Gatsby, the man who gives his name to this book, was exempt from my reaction--Gatsby who represented everything for which I have an unaffected scorn. If personality is an unbroken series of successful gestures, then there was something gorgeous about him, some heightened sensitivity to the promises of life, as if he were related to one of those intricate machines that register earthquakes ten thousand miles away. This responsiveness had nothing to do with that flabby impressionability which is dignified under the name of the "creative temperament"--it was an extraordinary gift for hope, a romantic readiness such as I have never found in any other person and which it is not likely I shall ever find again. No--Gatsby turned out all right at the end; it is what preyed on Gatsby, what foul dust floated in the wake of his dreams that temporarily closed out my interest in the abortive sorrows and short-winded elations of men. The sentence about conduct – does he mean through discipline (“on the hard rock”) and over time (“wet marshes”)? We learn he traveled East and wanted a soceity to be one way, devoid of freedom of expression. But he likes Gatsby – who has a unique personality. I think he means that Gatsby sees some part of life that has eluded him. Though Gatsby represented “everything for which I have an unaffected scorn” – yet he still saw something else in him. Last sentence sounds like contempt for men that preyed on Gatsby – maybe something that will be revealed later on. Narrator seems frustrated and confused so far
Also, A great post about part 2. Just thought I'd quote it in case someone missed it
On March 09 2013 06:21 Brobe wrote: My favorite literary period is from the 1900s-20s, but I've never read this book.
It's interesting to me that the narrator chooses the word "vulnerable" to describe his youth. To me that means that something like a betrayal draws a divide between who he is now and who he was when he was younger. Clearly he's taken ownership of his father's advice by claiming it to hold additional meaning.
That last sentence is such a bear to parse out the meaning. "Fundamental decencies" is a greatly subjective term, which no doubt ties in with his interpretation of his father's advice. For the moment I feel that is open accepting personality has attracted a type of person he'd rather do without and this may have deprived him of the high society where he sees himself belonging.
On March 09 2013 03:48 oneofthem wrote: that poem is not that complicated. all it says is this, i'll do anything for this girl. and also this girl has some weird materialistic taste.
If you want to simplify its meaning down to such a shallow level which the author probably did not intend, feel free, but you're going to miss out on a lot if that's the way you approach reading.
i think he's right in this case, though. fitzgerald's symbolism was always very straightforward. Plus, he does not yet have any context to get any more from the poem.
He's already wrong. The poem is written as an argument to someone else (or to any reader). It's not "I'll do anything," it's "if you have wealth and connections, show it if that's what it takes to get her." This also necessitates the question of why someone would need to be told this - if you're wealthy and connected, why would someone need to tell you to show it? That implies that this is written for someone who is hiding his wealth and connections but unable to get the girl without revealing what he has.
If you can't infer that much from the poem you SHOULD stick to math and science. It's pretty obvious assuming the meaning of "bounce" and "gold hat" is what I think it is.
jesus christ it's just a first person expression of the same principle.
if poems are written like cryptographs that you need the rest of the text to decode, then it's not much of a poetic experience.
On March 08 2013 16:06 Emon_ wrote: The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald Chapter 1 part 1 (introductory poem)
Then wear the gold hat, if that will move her; If you can bounce high, bounce for her too, Till she cry "Lover, gold-hatted, high-bouncing lover, I must have you!"
--THOMAS PARKE D'INVILLIERS
here's mine:
Gold hat =
gold : wealth
hat: highly visible status you choose to put on that everybody can see
So together, gold hat = prominent display of financial status
The most prominent trait of golden hats is not their value, but their superficiality, wherein the gold is only sheeted over the surface. At its core Gatsby isn't really about materialism or money, but vanity.
The 20s (when the great gatsby takes place) are often known as the "gilded age" as they looked good on the surface, but there were stirring problems in society that would eventually lead to the Great Depression. I think the "gold hat" is this golden gilding hiding the underlying problems. The "bouncing higher" is living the high life of the "roaring 20s" that will eventually come crashing down at the end of the decade.
Gatsby was written in the mid-twenties, far before Fitzgerald knew anything about the stock market bubble. And Fitzgerald was surely too much of a novelist to talk about anything as vague and tl.net-ish as "stirring problems in society that would eventually lead to the great depression." The death of Gatsby was more a moral disaster than a sociological one. It wasn't talking about how immoderate consumerism was unsustainable. Its insight was that the American dream was fundamentally incompatible with human nature (or, at least, with the nature of a good and innocent man like Gatsby.)
On March 09 2013 21:46 Emon_ wrote: Chapter 1 - part 3 And, after boasting this way of my tolerance, I come to the admission that it has a limit. Conduct may be founded on the hard rock or the wet marshes but after a certain point I don't care what it's founded on. When I came back from the East last autumn I felt that I wanted the world to be in uniform and at a sort of moral attention forever; I wanted no more riotous excursions with privileged glimpses into the human heart. Only Gatsby, the man who gives his name to this book, was exempt from my reaction--Gatsby who represented everything for which I have an unaffected scorn. If personality is an unbroken series of successful gestures, then there was something gorgeous about him, some heightened sensitivity to the promises of life, as if he were related to one of those intricate machines that register earthquakes ten thousand miles away. This responsiveness had nothing to do with that flabby impressionability which is dignified under the name of the "creative temperament"--it was an extraordinary gift for hope, a romantic readiness such as I have never found in any other person and which it is not likely I shall ever find again. No--Gatsby turned out all right at the end; it is what preyed on Gatsby, what foul dust floated in the wake of his dreams that temporarily closed out my interest in the abortive sorrows and short-winded elations of men. The sentence about conduct – does he mean through discipline (“on the hard rock”) and over time (“wet marshes”)? We learn he traveled East and wanted a soceity to be one way, devoid of freedom of expression. But he likes Gatsby – who has a unique personality. I think he means that Gatsby sees some part of life that has eluded him. Though Gatsby represented “everything for which I have an unaffected scorn” – yet he still saw something else in him. Last sentence sounds like contempt for men that preyed on Gatsby – maybe something that will be revealed later on. Narrator seems frustrated and confused so far
Also, A great post about part 2. Just thought I'd quote it in case someone missed it
On March 09 2013 06:21 Brobe wrote: My favorite literary period is from the 1900s-20s, but I've never read this book.
It's interesting to me that the narrator chooses the word "vulnerable" to describe his youth. To me that means that something like a betrayal draws a divide between who he is now and who he was when he was younger. Clearly he's taken ownership of his father's advice by claiming it to hold additional meaning.
That last sentence is such a bear to parse out the meaning. "Fundamental decencies" is a greatly subjective term, which no doubt ties in with his interpretation of his father's advice. For the moment I feel that is open accepting personality has attracted a type of person he'd rather do without and this may have deprived him of the high society where he sees himself belonging.
Writing about Mid-Western innocence broken by Eastern corruption is an idee fixe in Fitzgerald, you see it too in his protagonist, Amory Blaine in This Side of Paradise. In Gatsby, both Gatsby and Nick were originally from the Mid-West, hence their emotional and gothic sensitivities. "Fundamental decencies" in this context means more or less the Western American type. It stems from Progressive-era memes about how eastern society was becoming too much like Europe: sophisticated, inbred and artificial, whereas it was in the West that the original American virtues may be reborn. Gatsby was a Western man trying to move East, hence the narrator's ambiguity about him. The America of the 1920s hadn't yet experienced the rise of the Harry Truman-types to the top.
The sentence about conduct – does he mean through discipline (“on the hard rock”) and over time (“wet marshes”)?
I think he means that in the short-term, experience forms character, but in the long-term, he doesn't care what your excuse is. You are responsible for who you are.
when giving an explanation of how a person came to be, there's also a sense of understanding/making sense of that guy's (terrible) behavior. so wet marshes means the person had a bad upbringing/social environment(can't help but sink), and should be excused. but at a certain point, one's patience runs out and is no longer interested in giving that story of how the person came to be.
here narrator loses patience with an entire culture, an entire marsh.
I had to read this in high school, which is no surprise considering the novel takes place right near where I live. I enjoyed it despite not being much of a reader at the time, although I couldn't tell you why.
I drive the same road every day as they did in the latter part of the book haha.
On March 09 2013 03:48 oneofthem wrote: that poem is not that complicated. all it says is this, i'll do anything for this girl. and also this girl has some weird materialistic taste.
If you want to simplify its meaning down to such a shallow level which the author probably did not intend, feel free, but you're going to miss out on a lot if that's the way you approach reading.
i think he's right in this case, though. fitzgerald's symbolism was always very straightforward. Plus, he does not yet have any context to get any more from the poem.
He's already wrong. The poem is written as an argument to someone else (or to any reader). It's not "I'll do anything," it's "if you have wealth and connections, show it if that's what it takes to get her." This also necessitates the question of why someone would need to be told this - if you're wealthy and connected, why would someone need to tell you to show it? That implies that this is written for someone who is hiding his wealth and connections but unable to get the girl without revealing what he has.
If you can't infer that much from the poem you SHOULD stick to math and science. It's pretty obvious assuming the meaning of "bounce" and "gold hat" is what I think it is.
jesus christ it's just a first person expression of the same principle.
if poems are written like cryptographs that you need the rest of the text to decode, then it's not much of a poetic experience.
You weren't even close brah. Back to the computer lab!
Chapter 1 - part 4 My family have been prominent, well-to-do people in this middle-western city for three generations. The Carraways are something of a clan and we have a tradition that we're descended from the Dukes of Buccleuch, but the actual founder of my line was my grandfather's brother who came here in fifty-one, sent a substitute to the Civil War and started the wholesale hardware business that my father carries on today.
I never saw this great-uncle but I'm supposed to look like him--with special reference to the rather hard-boiled painting that hangs in Father's office. I graduated from New Haven in 1915, just a quarter of a century after my father, and a little later I participated in that delayed Teutonic migration known as the Great War. I enjoyed the counter-raid so thoroughly that I came back restless. Instead of being the warm center of the world the middle-west now seemed like the ragged edge of the universe--so I decided to go east and learn the bond business. Everybody I knew was in the bond business so I supposed it could support one more single man. All my aunts and uncles talked it over as if they were choosing a prep-school for me and finally said, "Why--ye-es" with very grave, hesitant faces. Father agreed to finance me for a year and after various delays I came east, permanently, I thought, in the spring of twenty-two. His Grandfather's brother got out of going to the Civil War and this was a pride in his family. Otherwise a straight-forward chapter - narrator moves east to study after fighting in World War I. Teutonic here I think means "having qualities related to modern Germans".
The Teutons were a Germanic tribe that resided in southern Scandinavia that migrated south and fought the Roman armies in 2nd century BC. As long as they stayed together they beat the Romans, but once divided the Romans won (wikipedia). Ties in well with what MoltkeWarding said: "Writing about Mid-Western innocence broken by Eastern corruption is an idee fixe in Fitzgerald". In this a historic example of the Northern innocence broken by Southern corruption.
On March 11 2013 04:47 oneofthem wrote: in the 20 seconds you took to read the first poem of the book i'd be very surprised if you got more out of it than the first part of my post.
I had to think about it. And I did. And I found more than you did.
Part 3 - The hard rock/wet marshes dichotomy could be symbolic of moral empiricism vs. moral reletavism as someone's motivation, but that may be reading too much into it. The term "unaffected scorn" is sort of an oxymoron, which to me means that the narrator is conflicted about his relationship with Gatsby. In one breath he's good friends and admires Gatsby, in the next he knows he should look down on him to be in accord with society.
Part 4 - I'm interested to see if his postwar restlessness plays a significant part in the story of if it's just backstory to provide a motivation for his eastern move. Clearly his choice is a decided odditiy amongst his relatives.Lastly, I wonder if the history of his great uncle is going to be a foil along the lines of: His uncle dodged war and secured reputable employment whereas the narrator ended up in war and now his career path might not be so respectable.
part 4 is further atmospheric social commentary on that midwestern sentimentality. taken together with the preceding passage about moral degradation out east, you can see a sort of ambiguity about whether the midwest is truly pure or not. the narrator's upbringing is also populated with the same status symbols that 'those people' out east probably respect. lineage, education (new haven = yale), and social circle.
re: cz. i didn't comment on your analysis because it's totally built on air. maybe the poem will have some more impact after we finish reading the book, a kind of circle becoming whole. but that's left for after the reader looks back on it, not at the start.
From the beginning, the part about reserving all judgments is an aphorism but crucially Nick has misinterpreted his fathers' aphorism. His father meant that he should examine himself before examining others but Nick takes it to mean he should simply hold back from judging others on first sight. Considering throughout the novel Nick consistently does judge people prematurely this begins to set him up as an unreliable narrator.
The ''foul dust'' that floated in the wake of his dreams is a connection to 'ashes to ashes, dust to dust'. From here you can link it to the valley of ashes at the start of chapter two and dust and ash keep recurring throughout the novel. In all these cases it is a sign of corruption, for Gatsby the corrupt nature of his dream, in the valley of ashes the corruptness of captitalism and is prolepsis of Gatsby's demise
Also a subsidiary title of the Dukes of Buccleuch is the earl of Doncaster, which Fitzgerald deliberately included to show Nick and Gatsby were closer than it seemed as Gatsby stands next to the Earl of Doncaster in a photo at oxford much later on
I also feel the point about the delayed Teutonic migration and calling it a counter-raid is that it is facetious , implying Nick feels light hearted about it. However in reality it is unlikely this is actually the case given the nature of such a war and Nick is more likely suppressing his true feelings by describing it like a children's game.
EPT
. We start at the beginning and let's see where it takes us. Maybe a page, maybe a chapter, maybe more. Topic will be updated with the most recent passage
