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United States42633 Posts
On August 10 2017 22:45 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 22:41 KwarK wrote:On August 10 2017 22:39 SoSexy wrote:I don't understand why many people here seem to be happy if we let NK do what it wants. For once Trump said it good - NK should be obliterated. It's a stupid dictatorship and the fact that places like this still exists in the world should make us feel ashamed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yodok_concentration_camp Okay so there is this country called China who has a mutual defence treaty with NK. And there is this concept called MAD. And basically that's why NK gets to do what it wants. Did you really think that everyone but you and Trump was pro-concentration camps and that's why NK exists? No, but the hypocrisy is staggering since other less fortunate countries have been invaded for far less (see the blatant Anthrax lie). So that argument doesn't really cut it.
How does it not cut it?
Which other country which has a mutual defence treaty with a nuclear power has been invaded?
There are two sides here.
1) People who just learned about NK and cry "someone should do something"
2) People who just learned a little more about NK and go "ah, that's why nobody can do anything"
NK is defended by Chinese nuclear submarines. And we don't want to start a war with China. So we allow NK to survive.
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SoSexy, what do you imagine the obliteration of NK would entail exactly? Trump's answer appear to be turning the country into a radiactive wasteland if taken literally. NK concentration camps would be a picnic compared to that.
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United States42633 Posts
On August 10 2017 22:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
SoSexy, what do you imagine the obliteration of NK would entail exactly? Trump's answer appear to be turning the country into a radiactive wasteland if taken literally. NK concentration camps would be a picnic compared to that.
Are you suggesting that there might not be a humanitarian justification for consuming the civilian population of NK in a nuclear fire? Big if true.
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Of course. Here we are again with the TL elitism of 'I get it, you don't, shut up'. The issue is precisely that there are NOT two sides - it is way more complicated. There are hundreds of variables with China's involvement, you just can't dismiss a situation of that importance by saying 'x supports y, just stop'. The chinese public is not fond of NK, for example, and there are contrasts between them. The fact that Xi Jinping has still not met with Kim Jong-Un should make you understand that this is not unconditional support.
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On August 10 2017 22:47 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 22:44 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2017 22:39 SoSexy wrote:I don't understand why many people here seem to be happy if we let NK do what it wants. For once Trump said it good - NK should be obliterated. It's a stupid dictatorship and the fact that places like this still exists in the world should make us feel ashamed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yodok_concentration_camp This isn’t Civilization. Nations are not “obliterated”. There will be survivors, refugees, economic crisis, and increased regional conflict. Plus South Korea will suffer. You know, the nation that started this whole pro Starcraft thing that created this site? Their capital would be leveled. But other than that, its great. You are just postponing the issue - sooner or later, actions will need to be taken. Do you agree with this or do you think that magically one day NK will change idea?
Some day something will have to be done about NK. But anyone who argues that this administration is equipped to handle the gravity of that task is fooling themselves. If people thought Iraq made a mess of the region, this will be far worse. Both Russia and China will become deeply involved in any post war effort. You are asking for a conflict that you are not prepared to see to the end.
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Everyone knows that NK is shit, and people would be very happy if NK were not a thing.
Sadly, there is no apparent way between the current situation and a situation where there is no NK that is not far more horrible than simply letting NK be, and either hoping it will eventually collapse or at least that it is only shitty for the people in NK while most leaving the remainder of the world in peace.
No one is arguing that NK is nice. They are saying we can't really do anything about it without unacceptable amounts of fallout.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On August 10 2017 21:30 Grettin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 21:27 mahrgell wrote:On August 10 2017 21:21 Grettin wrote:On August 10 2017 21:00 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:So what happens if NK actually fires 4 (dud?) missiles near Guam as they plan to? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-40883372Does something like that 100% of the time result in US retaliation? If the missile is crossing the prefectures mentioned in the article, i'd be shocked if the missiles weren't shot down/intercepted. Hell, even if a missile would fly closer to the main land (further than they have right now), i'd think US or JDF forces would intercept it. Oh, the highly successful missile interception technology will bring them down! Good luck! I'm by no means an expert of any missile technology what so ever, but since the tone of your message seems to indicate that you are, would you care to elaborate a bit more? Would it be impossible to intercept an missile during the mentioned ~18minute fly towards guam with the land, sea and air resources US and the allies have over there?
Here and here.
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On August 10 2017 22:53 SoSexy wrote:
Of course. Here we are again with the TL elitism of 'I get it, you don't, shut up'. The issue is precisely that there are NOT two sides - it is way more complicated. There are hundreds of variables with China's involvement, you just can't dismiss a situation of that importance by saying 'x supports y, just stop'. The chinese public is not fond of NK, for example, and there are contrasts between them. The fact that Xi Jinping has still not met with Kim Jong-Un should make you understand that this is not unconditional support.
Elitist: better informed. If you are ignorant and don’t know what you are talking about, don’t expect people to treat your calls for armed conflict(which you will not have to fight) with anything but derision.
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On August 10 2017 22:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
SoSexy, what do you imagine the obliteration of NK would entail exactly? Trump's answer appear to be turning the country into a radiactive wasteland if taken literally. NK concentration camps would be a picnic compared to that.
No, that's your reading and it's wrong because 1) he did not talk about nuclear weapons and 2) it's not a military order. If you are asking me how the occupation would take place, I'm no soldier, but I suppose Mattis knows that.The US are expert at invading countries...
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On August 10 2017 22:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 22:47 SoSexy wrote:On August 10 2017 22:44 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2017 22:39 SoSexy wrote:I don't understand why many people here seem to be happy if we let NK do what it wants. For once Trump said it good - NK should be obliterated. It's a stupid dictatorship and the fact that places like this still exists in the world should make us feel ashamed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yodok_concentration_camp This isn’t Civilization. Nations are not “obliterated”. There will be survivors, refugees, economic crisis, and increased regional conflict. Plus South Korea will suffer. You know, the nation that started this whole pro Starcraft thing that created this site? Their capital would be leveled. But other than that, its great. You are just postponing the issue - sooner or later, actions will need to be taken. Do you agree with this or do you think that magically one day NK will change idea? Some day something will have to be done about NK. But anyone who argues that this administration is equipped to handle the gravity of that task is fooling themselves. If people thought Iraq made a mess of the region, this will be far worse. Both Russia and China will become deeply involved in any post war effort. You are asking for a conflict that you are not prepared to see to the end.
You could have said it at the beginning - you just don't trust this administration. At least it is an accetable reply. And to expand on your 'some day', do you realize that the people who 20 years ago said 'some day' gave time to Korea for weapons research and they potentially have nukes now?
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United States42633 Posts
SoSexy, if you don't want me to assume that you're posting from a position of ignorance you should really invest in learning a bare minimum about a subject before posting about it. It would save both of us a lot of time.
North Korea was sustained by Chinese military strength and sheltered beneath it for four decades. Then, as Chinese support appeared to weaken as a consequence of an increasingly friendly relationship with the US, North Korea used their Chinese shield to protect them while getting their own nuclear deterrent which they now have.
At no point was it ever viable to change the regime without Chinese assent. And now it is too late.
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Sorry Kwark - ask Mattis to do a tutorial for me next time you visit the Pentagon, since you are obviously very well informed about the whole issue. Or maybe you are a single user with a limited knowledge like us all and victim to your own bias. Who knows.
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United States42633 Posts
On August 10 2017 22:57 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 22:53 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2017 22:47 SoSexy wrote:On August 10 2017 22:44 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2017 22:39 SoSexy wrote:I don't understand why many people here seem to be happy if we let NK do what it wants. For once Trump said it good - NK should be obliterated. It's a stupid dictatorship and the fact that places like this still exists in the world should make us feel ashamed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yodok_concentration_camp This isn’t Civilization. Nations are not “obliterated”. There will be survivors, refugees, economic crisis, and increased regional conflict. Plus South Korea will suffer. You know, the nation that started this whole pro Starcraft thing that created this site? Their capital would be leveled. But other than that, its great. You are just postponing the issue - sooner or later, actions will need to be taken. Do you agree with this or do you think that magically one day NK will change idea? Some day something will have to be done about NK. But anyone who argues that this administration is equipped to handle the gravity of that task is fooling themselves. If people thought Iraq made a mess of the region, this will be far worse. Both Russia and China will become deeply involved in any post war effort. You are asking for a conflict that you are not prepared to see to the end. You could have said it at the beginning - you just don't trust this administration. At least it is an accetable reply. And to expand on your 'some day', do you realize that the people who 20 years ago said 'some day' gave time to Korea for weapons research and they potentially have nukes now?
It's not that nobody wanted to stop NK getting nukes 20 years ago. It's that nobody wanted to get into a nuclear war with China.
"maybe we should have done something before they got nukes" is not some crazy new revolutionary idea that you just came up with. People wanted to. They couldn't. China prevented them from doing it.
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On August 10 2017 22:55 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 21:30 Grettin wrote:On August 10 2017 21:27 mahrgell wrote:On August 10 2017 21:21 Grettin wrote:On August 10 2017 21:00 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:So what happens if NK actually fires 4 (dud?) missiles near Guam as they plan to? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-40883372Does something like that 100% of the time result in US retaliation? If the missile is crossing the prefectures mentioned in the article, i'd be shocked if the missiles weren't shot down/intercepted. Hell, even if a missile would fly closer to the main land (further than they have right now), i'd think US or JDF forces would intercept it. Oh, the highly successful missile interception technology will bring them down! Good luck! I'm by no means an expert of any missile technology what so ever, but since the tone of your message seems to indicate that you are, would you care to elaborate a bit more? Would it be impossible to intercept an missile during the mentioned ~18minute fly towards guam with the land, sea and air resources US and the allies have over there? Here and here.
Good posts. Thanks.
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In addition, it is really unreal like you just ignore every argument and continue to go on with your narrative. But since this is usual on this forum, let me simply ask a question that will make you come out in the open. What will you do if NK attacks the US? WIll you retaliate or not because 'China is behind them'? Just answer me on this one and I'll be happy.
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United States42633 Posts
On August 10 2017 23:04 SoSexy wrote:
In addition, it is really unreal like you just ignore every argument and continue to go on with your narrative. But since this is usual on this forum, let me simply ask a question that will make you come out in the open. What will you do if NK attacks the US? WIll you retaliate or not because 'China is behind them'? Just answer me on this one and I'll be happy.
Sigh.
Okay.
So NK and China have a mutual defence treaty.
What that means is that it is invoked if one of them is attacked without provocation.
What provocation means is a deliberate action intended to create a response.
Attacking the US would count as provocation.
You wanna know why I treat you like you're ignorant? This is why.
If NK attacks the US then the US will hit up China on speeddial and say "hey, are we glassing one of you or both?" and China will go "just NK, thanks". And then the US will glass NK.
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You seriously believe politics at this level is played 100% by the rules of the book? What do you believe also? That the justice system is always fair and everyone pay taxes because it is written to do so? What you say is technically right - but reality isn't like that, period. I gave you one fact that I will repeat and I will add another, but you ignored them:
1) The president of China has yet to meet Kim Jong-Un.
2) Kim Jong Un executed the elements of the party who wanted closer relationships with China (in particular: his uncle)
Treaties are paper. Or maybe you are right, every treaty in the history of international politics has always been fulfilled and I'm a fool.
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On August 10 2017 23:04 SoSexy wrote:
In addition, it is really unreal like you just ignore every argument and continue to go on with your narrative. But since this is usual on this forum, let me simply ask a question that will make you come out in the open. What will you do if NK attacks the US? WIll you retaliate or not because 'China is behind them'? Just answer me on this one and I'll be happy.
The question is: "What do you actually want to do?"
It seems your plan involves something like attacking North Korea with lots of bombs, and possibly invading lateron. Now, this branches of into two different paths:
a) If you get China onboard with this, or China chooses not to react afterwards. This is the good path. You only lose Seoul, though most people there probably don't die, only a few hundred thousand. Another bunch of South Korean soldiers at the DMZ die very quickly. Also, you need to kill A LOT of North Korean soldiers. Most of this happens very quickly, and lets assume that the NK military is not very competent and loses the war quickly thereafter without a lot of problems. You now have to deal with a complete breakdown of North Korea, millions of completely uneducated refugees that have no idea of how a western society works, that you have to somehow deal with. This is the best case scenario.
b) Something goes wrong. From not as bad to worst (Obviously in addition to all of the things above):
-You get an Iraq-Style situation in NK
-The NK military is not as incompetent, and puts up a real fight. Lots of soldiers die.
-Humanitarian catastrophe in NK, you somehow don't manage to get enough food into the warzone. Millions starve.
-NK nukes something (Seoul, Japan, US West coast in descending order of likeliness). A lot more people die.
-China honors the defense treaty. Apocalypse
I hope you realize why people don't want this. If your best case scenario is inacceptably bad, the best reaction might just be to do nothing at all, and hope the situation resolves itself. And that is even ignoring the things that can go wrong that lead to a situation that is between worse and apocalyptically worse than the best case.
Or at least to not do military things.
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United States42633 Posts
You attempted to demonstrate that a mutual defence treaty could be dismissed as irrelevant by proving that it wouldn't be used in your hypothetical. A hypothetical that involved NK starting the war.
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United States42633 Posts
On August 10 2017 23:14 SoSexy wrote:
You seriously believe politics at this level is played 100% by the rules of the book? What do you believe also? That the justice system is always fair and everyone pay taxes because it is written to do so? What you say is technically right - but reality isn't like that, period. I gave you one fact that I will repeat and I will add another, but you ignored them:
1) The president of China has yet to meet Kim Jong-Un.
2) Kim Jong Un executed the elements of the party who wanted closer relationships with China (in particular: his uncle)
Treaties are paper. Or maybe you are right, every treaty in the history of international politics has always been fulfilled and I'm a fool.
Your argument
1) Not every treaty is honoured.
therefore
2) We should trigger a nuclear defence guarantee without checking if they'll honour it.
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EPT
