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On December 18 2012 01:52 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 01:10 deth2munkies wrote:On December 18 2012 00:52 semantics wrote:On December 18 2012 00:44 deth2munkies wrote:On December 18 2012 00:06 azLaR wrote:
Well compared to DotA2, HoN's graphics are sharper and the engine is smoother (the delay is noticeable in DotA2).
Comparing it to League is a little different. League is a completely different game in the same genre. League is more 'team-based' and HoN is more 'individual-based'. Of course, both respective games have both incorporated but that's what I feel is dominant.
For example in League, team-based play is very important because one champion, no matter how buff, can not take out a whole team. League is very action oriented because of how the heroes work (more skills can be spammed, less to do during laning phase (no denies).
In HoN, one champion can solo a team of 5 given the right items. There tends to be more farming because items are extremely vital in this game. There is more emphasis during laning phase (creep kill/denies) and 'generally' less action among heroes. Town Portals (I think they're called that; TPs) are what make this game extremely fast pace. At anytime, when you're ganking a champion by a town, they can receive backup as quick as in 3 seconds.
The main issue with HoN is that most heroes that aren't ripped straight from the original DotA (which is most of the original lineup) are pretty broken for significant amounts of time. When I played, there were serious balance issues with both items and heroes. The good points about HoN are, as you stated, that it's exactly the same gameplay of DotA (albeit minus the secret shop) with an engine that doesn't suck, which is the main reason I don't play DotA 2 very much. Also goddammit, that's my password to everything >< That's mostly a fallacy short of a few instances just flat out broken heroes don't really come around, but yes there are tiers in pro scene some are easier and more useful to some game strategies then others, but flat out broken items heroes is a complaint usually given by noobs or people who played dota but stuck of hon and complain. Hon does have a bit more pub stomping star heroes though, but usually those heroes are just mediocre in pro scene,(which I shouldn't complain about abusing pub stomping heroes like CD and zepher is how I got up out of the 1600MMR bracket in solo que, just gotta play above the trash XD) Also sorry about the password but just using a password manager or writing is down(if it's like at home) is far better security policy then same password for a bunch of things, means the weakest link gets hacked all they have to do is plug and chug it into various web sites or games and see what they can hit. I think my peak was around 1780 or so and I was consistently 1650-1750. I'm talking about shit like PM's ulti that could 1 shot people for over a month before they fixed it (feature my ass), Nomad's true damage strike thing doing unavoidable ~250-300 damage at lvl 5 while stealthing him no less, and Silhouette's initial incarnation of her passive. All those were nerfed, but it took them forever to do so when it was a glaring issue both in the pro scene and in ladder play. All but PM's nerf survived multiple patches. Don't get into details with me because this is all I remember, I quit playing over a year ago. In spite of them not being overpowered, a game which has so many full combo heroes is annoying as well. Fayde, Bomb, Pyro, Midas, Deadwood, WS, Pebbles, Drunken Master, etc can all 1 shot any support hero with no farm or non-fed hero with a bit of farm about halfway through the game and all of them have some sort of long range initiation with either PK or invis. And this is just by hitting 2-3 of their abilities in unison. Compare that to DotA where you have basically Tiny, NA, and maybe TA; and LoL where you have Viegar and Lux as the only 2 that can do it when NOT fed out the ass (albeit there are more that can do it when fed in LoL than in either game due to the focus on abilities). It makes solo MM a nightmare. EDIT: I forgot Gauntlet and Monkey King...and a lot more probably. And? Using your primary ganker/initiator to one-shot enemy ward bitch during mid game seems like quite a waste. Basically any hero can kill them by just looking in their general direction. If you're a dedicated ward bitch, being 5 levels below the average, having inventory consisting of 2 wards, tp and boots (if you're lucky) you shouldn't really be surprised that you drop fast. It is your job to maintain good vision and have good map awareness so that you don't get caught out with your pants down and don't feed enemy team. Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 01:27 dapierow wrote:
Does suck that hon doesnt have drums or pipe
Drum is Energizer (more or less) Pipe is Barrier Idol
I'm just saying, that doesn't happen often in DotA or LoL, and it makes it extremely frustrating when playing in a non-team environment. Most randoms will rage at you for getting caught by a PK Deadwood while you're warding despite the fact they FORCED you to ward because you were last pick, etc. It's annoying because of the community and the design, though not necessarily overpowered. The sheer amount of pubstomp available is just crazy.
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On December 18 2012 01:52 mostevil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 22:43 dapierow wrote:
Edit: Yes S2 Did hash the passwords but the hacker got the individual Salts as well(which quoted by himself were short and ineffective) The salts really should not be enough, you're not supposed to use reversible encryption with passwords. Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 01:21 Exempt. wrote:
they started out extremely small, basically indie level and SQL injection is still really new school. Not being vulnerable to injections not new. For over a decade we've been coding with measures against it, it's lots easier now every language allows you to easily parameterise SQL queries.
They properly did. My guess without any information is they used md5crypt which got broken earlier this year. They properly didn't go away from it either by stupidity or didn't notice the algorithm was broken.
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Without the hacker releasing the method of crack, there is no reason to panic for now. Change your passwords (all of them, don't be a lazy ass) and if you have suspicions, contact S2Games to inform them.
Also don't be so harsh on S2, they certainly have troubles in the marketing department but Sony also got hacked last year and SOE is a much bigger company. Human failure is more common than you think, especially in the programming field where the high demand makes it easier for incompetent to get jobs.
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damn poor s2, this isn't gonna help with their sales :/...
I also think HoN is the best out of the 3 games, but S2 is definitely a weaker company in terms of community management
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I don't think HoN is the best but it provides a legitimate alternative gameplay choice for those who want what it offers. I had a lot of fun with it in the past. I see it as the SC2 equivalent of Dota, a lot of the difficulty removed and replaced with an increase in raw speed/pace of the game
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On December 18 2012 00:33 Archers_bane wrote:My opinion of course, but I think the HoN mechanics are the best out of the 3 (LoL, DotA 2, HoN)...the heroes I'd have to give to DotA because they are so fun to play. Never played LoL long enough to give a valid opinion, but the few times I played there was no denying  Sucks this happened, luckily I haven't been around the weekend due to personal reasons to see this all go down. Hope it gets fixed asap
Totally agree with this, there are so many features/mechanics in Dota 2 that annoy me because they are smarter/better in HoN but hero design is just so much better in Dota. (f***ing Monkey king and Deadwood)
The passwords leaking doesn't affect me, but it is another in a long line of disappointments from S2.
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I like HoN because I personally find its art direction vastly superior to the other games, but the terrible flaming and lack of English speaking players really doesn't make me want to play much anymore. This security breach even less so.
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Tbh I'm pretty suprised it was LoL and not HoN that got popular in Korea, I thought they played DotA Chaos before due it being faster than Allstars.
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Hopefully this gives the HoN scene some much needed attention lol
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United States47024 Posts
On December 18 2012 00:37 Monsen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 00:31 TheYango wrote:On December 18 2012 00:22 Monsen wrote:
Edit: Oh yeah, the question why HoN is considered the best moba by some has already been answered but I would like to add that in contrast to Icefrog and the LoL creators S2 has recognised the need to shorten/speed up games and (besides an arguably faster engine) implemented quite a few features and balance changes that help make most games a bit faster. (can't really speak for LoL but in Dota2 60+ minutes is quite common while in HoN that would qualify for "epic length") Er, this has been a regular trend in DotA development as well. Icefrog's been shooting for shorter game lengths for a long time, and has actually been quite successful with it as of recently. Fair enough. I have only played the old Dota myself and lately watched Dota2 streamed games that tended to go on for quite a while. Can you point out some of the changes Icefrog made to speed things up?
From recent versions:
- Resurrect with full HP/mana
- Increased assist gold to encourage ganking
- Tranquil Boots speeding up the development of heroes that would typically have to commit to far more expensive regen items for their farming (e.g. Tranquils instead of HotD or Vanguard on Luna or Phantom Lancer)
- General push in strength for making carries come to fights earlier, and emphasizing the strength of carries with high midgame teamfight effectiveness (buffs to Sven, Luna, etc., nerfs to Anti-mage)
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sigh... I really need to start deactivating all of my old accounts on the internet. I think I logged into HoN like once or twice a few years ago, and now I have to worry about what passwords might be the same.
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On December 18 2012 02:51 windzor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 01:52 mostevil wrote:On December 17 2012 22:43 dapierow wrote:
Edit: Yes S2 Did hash the passwords but the hacker got the individual Salts as well(which quoted by himself were short and ineffective) The salts really should not be enough, you're not supposed to use reversible encryption with passwords. On December 18 2012 01:21 Exempt. wrote:
they started out extremely small, basically indie level and SQL injection is still really new school. Not being vulnerable to injections not new. For over a decade we've been coding with measures against it, it's lots easier now every language allows you to easily parameterise SQL queries. They properly did. My guess without any information is they used md5crypt which got broken earlier this year. They properly didn't go away from it either by stupidity or didn't notice the algorithm was broken.
AFAIK md5crypt isn't broken so much as brute forcing it is now viable due to processing power increases. Given the number of accounts affected I can't see it being a case of this guy bruting all the accounts.
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On December 18 2012 04:14 mostevil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 02:51 windzor wrote:On December 18 2012 01:52 mostevil wrote:On December 17 2012 22:43 dapierow wrote:
Edit: Yes S2 Did hash the passwords but the hacker got the individual Salts as well(which quoted by himself were short and ineffective) The salts really should not be enough, you're not supposed to use reversible encryption with passwords. On December 18 2012 01:21 Exempt. wrote:
they started out extremely small, basically indie level and SQL injection is still really new school. Not being vulnerable to injections not new. For over a decade we've been coding with measures against it, it's lots easier now every language allows you to easily parameterise SQL queries. They properly did. My guess without any information is they used md5crypt which got broken earlier this year. They properly didn't go away from it either by stupidity or didn't notice the algorithm was broken. AFAIK md5crypt isn't broken so much as brute forcing it is now viable due to processing power increases. Given the number of accounts affected I can't see it being a case of this guy bruting all the accounts.
It's always going to be a matter of processing power, for the practical breaking of any cryptographic function. However, MD5 is very broken, and has been for a number of years, as it offers far less security than the 128 bits imply. md5crypt is a program that uses MD5, and cannot be said to be broken in itself. Still stupid to use.
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On December 17 2012 23:53 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 23:47 zeru wrote:On December 17 2012 23:21 HellRoxYa wrote:On December 17 2012 23:10 zeru wrote:On December 17 2012 22:43 dapierow wrote:
He verified it by posting his name on the Main S2 caster's Twitter (he had the same passwrod for his twitter and Hon I guess) I have a hard time believing that S2 doesn't hash passwords. link? It's in the OP. Edit: And this is hilarious. Except I was planning to play some and apparently S2 aren't very good at what they do (surprise surprise) so their servers are shut down for now. Was already deleted when i tried to check back when i posted. guess i was too slow. anyway, no hashing would be an unbelievable failure. On December 17 2012 23:46 Martijn wrote:On December 17 2012 23:10 zeru wrote:On December 17 2012 22:43 dapierow wrote:
He verified it by posting his name on the Main S2 caster's Twitter (he had the same passwrod for his twitter and Hon I guess) I have a hard time believing that S2 doesn't hash passwords. link? Because there's surely no databases that allow you to do reverse md5 look-ups :/ Kidding me? why would anyone in the world still use md5? Swing and a miss on the point made there. Point was, for every hash there's a reverse look-up table. Apparently they went to the trouble of salts and that wasn't enough either. So arguing about unencrypted vs encrypted password has little to no relevance seeming as shown encrypted passwords can be broken all the same, it's just a matter of time.
What you've just said is that salts were no help against lookup tables. Salting renders lookup tables ineffective by their very nature. If S2 were properly salting and applying a relatively strong hash this guy would still be working on the first password.
zeru is seems to know what he's talking about, so try not to be a jerk about it. S2 obviously messed up big time in basic password security.
And hashing is not the same as encrypting.
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On December 18 2012 05:36 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 23:53 Martijn wrote:On December 17 2012 23:47 zeru wrote:On December 17 2012 23:21 HellRoxYa wrote:On December 17 2012 23:10 zeru wrote:On December 17 2012 22:43 dapierow wrote:
He verified it by posting his name on the Main S2 caster's Twitter (he had the same passwrod for his twitter and Hon I guess) I have a hard time believing that S2 doesn't hash passwords. link? It's in the OP. Edit: And this is hilarious. Except I was planning to play some and apparently S2 aren't very good at what they do (surprise surprise) so their servers are shut down for now. Was already deleted when i tried to check back when i posted. guess i was too slow. anyway, no hashing would be an unbelievable failure. On December 17 2012 23:46 Martijn wrote:On December 17 2012 23:10 zeru wrote:On December 17 2012 22:43 dapierow wrote:
He verified it by posting his name on the Main S2 caster's Twitter (he had the same passwrod for his twitter and Hon I guess) I have a hard time believing that S2 doesn't hash passwords. link? Because there's surely no databases that allow you to do reverse md5 look-ups :/ Kidding me? why would anyone in the world still use md5? Swing and a miss on the point made there. Point was, for every hash there's a reverse look-up table. Apparently they went to the trouble of salts and that wasn't enough either. So arguing about unencrypted vs encrypted password has little to no relevance seeming as shown encrypted passwords can be broken all the same, it's just a matter of time. What you've just said is that salts were no help against lookup tables. Salting renders lookup tables ineffective by their very nature. If S2 were properly salting and applying a relatively strong hash this guy would still be working on the first password. zeru is seems to know what he's talking about, so try not to be a jerk about it. S2 obviously messed up big time in basic password security. And hashing is not the same as encrypting.
How many passwords did he actually get? Probably only the simple ones based on single dictionary words or something. If you use passwords of at least 8 characters, not based on dictionary words and with non-letter characters in the mix your password should be pretty much proof against hash lookup tables even without salting. Even something like tliquid7e should be pretty strong.
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uffff lets se, what was my HoN password again ? qq
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good thing my hon password was a throwaway one :D
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On December 18 2012 00:36 AntiGrav1ty wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 00:15 inermis wrote:
well if it is good, and company that made it wants to make more money out of it, why not advertise it ALOT more, throw some 100k usd tournament, then another one, where money is, progamers show up and progamers wannabe's, if it really is good, they could pull that off. Well they did exactly that with Hontour and Dreamhon. Both are very big tournaments with a decent prize pool and good coverage. The player numbers and viewer numbers have gone up a lot in the last couple of months. Honcast has about 6-12k viewers 3 times a week depending on the matchup and player numbers at peak times have gone up to 100k players online at the same time from about 40k a year ago. S2 is expanding and they are doing the right things. The problem is just that everything came too late. LoL had taken off already and Dota2 was getting big with the international before that as well. Catching up now is pretty much impossible because even with prize money and advertisement it's gonna be hard to entice players to switch games at this point. Dota and especially LoL are just too far ahead now.
Just a comment on your statement about player numbers. A couple of months ago, S2 started counting the Garena HoN players (south east asia) towards the total amount of players, resulting in a drastic burst from 40k'ish to 100k'ish players. This however does not reflect the status of the game with it's western audience. While the Int client might had 40k players a year ago, that number looks more like 30k currently, probably helped by the rise of DotA 2 (Graph of concurrent DotA2 players) and S2's security/ddos issues.
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man, im running out of password ideas at this rate.
Sony hack, Riot hack, now this.
I guess lesson learned, when i leave a game i need to make the comapny delete my data.
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This actually reminded me to uninstall HoN. As for my password and account info, I already forgot it rofl.
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EPT
