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On October 09 2012 00:47 neversummer wrote:
I don't think gay men should be prancing around with large groups of 8-10 year old boys.
I'm sorry, but I have to call you out on this one. What does one's sexual orientation have to do with their interaction with minors? Should we not allow heterosexual men to be the camp counselors of summer camps because there are female minors in the mix? Just because a person is attracted to people of the same sex does not mean that they are attracted to people of the same sex in single digit age groups.
As a gay person myself, I find this both ignorant and intentionally trying to pin negativity towards a specific group of people which want nothing more than equal treatment on a topic that isn't even relevant to people/group they're being associated with.
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On October 09 2012 02:08 MrF wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 09 2012 01:35 cLAN.Anax wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 01:26 MooMu wrote:On October 09 2012 01:21 rackdude wrote:
This should really be closed and be resubmitted in a more civil manner as the way it stands is not giving a good discussion, rather just huge amount of disgusting mudslinging. It's a real issue and as an Eagle Scout I am concerned by how the national leadership does some stuff that I do not agree with, but this is not the way to discuss it. This ain't personal. Understand your status is being sullied by your leadership and they're the ones slinging the nastiest mud. That doesn't excuse you from an awful, biased OP. Your rhetoric is clearly showing, and I would kindly ask you to refrain from it if you're going to initiate threads on emotionally-divisive issues such as this. I said this back in the "Gay Scout Resolution" thread, and I'll re-post it here with a small addition. Show nested quote +When I was a younger Boy Scout, we also didn't mention politics or even differing religions for that matter, because we knew that we each had our separate opinions on the matter and knew to let the parents talk to thier kids about those issues. BSA expects Mom and Dad to explain how sex works and what differing political opinions and religious beliefs are and what homosexuality is. Someone who is openly expressive of their sexuality, in my opinion, should not be tolerated, hetero- or homosexual; Boy Scouts isn't the place for it. There is a double standard on this, as I heard far more than my fair share of heterosexuality (boys will be boys...), but I disapprove of it just as ardently. Basically, BSA doesn't want to deal with any of it, because they believe it's not their place. To be honest, a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy is acceptable here in my opinion, for any sexual orientation. I know it's not popular, but those are family issues (homosexuality, teenage promiscuity, etc.), and they should remain as such if you ask me.
I "shrug" at the notion that Johnny is gay or Timmy is sexually promiscuous or Spike is Muslim. Yes, I'll disagree with them on a moral level. But we can still be in the same Patrol together and get along just fine because we can set those things off to the side when we get together for meetings and go on campouts, etc. As for this particular story, I actually do not believe that the Scouts rejected this man's Eagle Scout award for him being homosexual, but probably because he was vocal, public, or both about his homosexuality. Given the nature of his Eagle Project too, I imagine he used this "tolerance wall" as a pretty blatant way to come out about it. From the article in the OP: Show nested quote +"Recently, a Scout proactively notified his unit leadership and Eagle Scout counselor that he does not agree to Scouting's principle of 'Duty to God,' and does not meet Scouting's membership standard on sexual orientation," the statement reads. "While the Boy Scouts of America did not proactively ask for this information, based on his statements and after discussion with his family, he is being informed that he is no longer eligible for membership in Scouting." The most personal questions I ever got asked about when I went to my Eagle Board of Review, were if I was active in my religion, as per the Scout Oath ("To God and my Country") and if I would strive to remain "Reverent," as part of the Scout Law. I think Mr. Andersen is an honest and exemplary young man whose project, on its face, sounds worthy of recognition. I have no reason to believe he's a horrible person or anything like that. But he willfully disobeyed one of Scouting's most important tenets. Because of this, I stand by the Board's decision. You put together a fair point but the problem is by that logic anyone who "displays their sexuality" is subject to the same treatment, so if someone wanted to say announce their getting engaged would that elicit the same response, if its a hetero marriage probably not, if it's a gay marriage I would bet that it would. The problem with "don't ask don't tell" is that "telling" consists of not hiding the fact that you are a homosexual to the world. Sure as a straight man I can say I don't go around shoving my sexuality in other peoples faces but that's because I am a part of the accepted majority, however if a gay person is known as being gay they are suddenly "openly expressive of their sexuality" I am completely open about my sexuality but it's not an issue because I'm not gay. I would understand if there was a candidate who was going around showing pictures of him having sex with other men, or women for that matter, and he got denied/kicked out, but all this kid did was let his leaders know he was gay. (As a comparison what would happen if he instead told them he had a girlfriend would that be grounds for rejection because he is being open about his sexual orientation as straight?) That being said BSA is a private organization and it is perfectly within their right to have standards regarding sexual orientation, religion or whatever they choose, just don't pretend that it's merely about being open about your sexuality, gay or straight, because it's not.
Well said.
On October 09 2012 02:03 deth2munkies wrote:
Boy Scouts are a Christian organization. That's how they were founded, that's how they're run. Christianity forbids homosexuality very explicitly.
That'd be like not letting a conservative Christian into a leadership position of an organization devoted to Atheism. It is and always has been a non-issue.
Christianity does not forbid homosexuality. Right wing Christians do. They're not representative of the religion or of Christians everywhere.
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On October 09 2012 02:16 Butterednuts wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 00:47 neversummer wrote:
I don't think gay men should be prancing around with large groups of 8-10 year old boys. I'm sorry, but I have to call you out on this one. What does one's sexual orientation have to do with their interaction with minors? Should we not allow heterosexual men to be the camp counselors of summer camps because there are female minors in the mix? Just because a person is attracted to people of the same sex does not mean that they are attracted to people of the same sex in single digit age groups. As a gay person myself, I find this both ignorant and intentionally trying to pin negativity towards a specific group of people which want nothing more than equal treatment on a topic that isn't even relevant to people/group they're being associated with.
I think most of the people who oppose having gay men leading boy scout troops would also oppose having straight men leading girl scout troops.
In either case this discussion is pointless, because this is a scout and not a scout leader. I can't come up with any possible justification for the way they are treating this boy.
I wish we could have a well written OP on this issue with less angry rhetoric.
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Religious people will be religious people. They follow backwards ideologies based on unproven doctrine and preach it to the ignorant who will follow blindly.
Don't focus on BSA, focus on the funding from the government (I've heard it's small but any amount of money supporting bigots should be removed) and get that taken out.
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On October 09 2012 02:03 deth2munkies wrote:
Boy Scouts are a Christian organization. That's how they were founded, that's how they're run. Christianity forbids homosexuality very explicitly.
That'd be like not letting a conservative Christian into a leadership position of an organization devoted to Atheism. It is and always has been a non-issue.
Christianity does not forbid homosexuality. Right wing Christians do. They're not representative of the religion or of Christians everywhere.[/QUOTE]
I do not compute. Aren't christians classified as a group of people who follow a book called "The Bible: New testament"?
Even if they don't follow everything in it, you would think they supports all the direct "orders"? I'm pretty sure that the bible explicilitly condemns homosexuality.
If we talk about terms alone, then people who do not follow said book, can't be classified as christians. They would have to call themself something else, so people could distinguish the groups.
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On October 09 2012 00:47 neversummer wrote:
Secondly I applaud them for maintaining their position in the midst of criticism from the community. I second this. I believe that individuals (which includes organizations of individuals) should be free to make their own choices.
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On October 09 2012 02:35 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 02:03 deth2munkies wrote:
Boy Scouts are a Christian organization. That's how they were founded, that's how they're run. Christianity forbids homosexuality very explicitly.
That'd be like not letting a conservative Christian into a leadership position of an organization devoted to Atheism. It is and always has been a non-issue. Christianity does not forbid homosexuality. Right wing Christians do. They're not representative of the religion or of Christians everywhere.
I do not compute. Aren't christians classified as a group of people who follow a book called "The Bible: New testament"?
Even if they don't follow everything in it, you would think they supports all the direct "orders"? I'm pretty sure that the bible explicilitly condemns homosexuality.
If we talk about terms alone, then people who do not follow said book, can't be classified as christians. They would have to call themself something else, so people could distinguish the groups.
Give me a direct quote of Jesus saying that homosexuals are evil and I'll agree with you.
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On October 09 2012 02:37 Subversive wrote:
Give me a direct quote of Jesus saying that homosexuals are evil and I'll agree with you. I'm not a Christian, but my understanding is that the reasoning is: 1) The Old Testament condemns homosexuality in strong terms and 2) Jesus says that he has not come to abolish Old Testament law.
(and yes, I'm aware that this reasoning appears problematic in light of the many OT regulations that no Christians adhere to. I imagine that there's some sort of response to this, but I don't know it.)
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On October 09 2012 02:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Religious people will be religious people. They follow backwards ideologies based on unproven doctrine and preach it to the ignorant who will follow blindly.
Don't focus on BSA, focus on the funding from the government (I've heard it's small but any amount of money supporting bigots should be removed) and get that taken out.
While i strongly agree with your first point, then i don't see the point of point 2. USA is a democratic country, so we can assume, that every law they have, or funding they have, is created by the majority of the voters(unless we take into account the dictator like "State Vote").
So if there is a majority of people who do not like these laws, then we can assume that the majority didn't vote before said law/fund was made. And in my opinion, then people who do not vote should have ZERO politcal influence for the remainder of the reign of the guy/party who got voted in.
This include everyone ofc. I've tried not voting before, simply because all the options would in my opinion wreck the country. So i just lay off all political responsibility, and when the country is fucked, then i will blame them, and try to do things my way.
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On October 09 2012 02:37 Subversive wrote:
Give me a direct quote of Jesus saying that homosexuals are evil and I'll agree with you.
Not a quote to disprove you, just general information on the topic
The closest you have to a direct quote in the new testament forbidding homosexuality is Romans 1:27 "And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." (King James Bible)
Whether this does, in fact, forbid homosexuality is still up for debate, some scholars dispute it. The old testament is another beast entirely, but seeing as the new testament revises a lot from the old (and many, many things from the old testament are being disregarded by Christians), its hardly very relevant
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Aside from the religious debate, how about if a parent doesn't want his son to spend summer break camping with a counselor / scout leader who may or may not find him sexually attractive? I'm not saying gays are child molesters, but I am suggesting that the ones who were molesting little boys probably are gay. Tolerance is one thing, but then there's enabling and then there's outright stupidity. If the BSA is acting under some archaic and stupid belief by forbidding homosexuals from being scout leaders then so be it. It's their right as an organization to refuse membership to whomever they want and to promote people in the organization as they see fit, based on the trust that they are "ideal" and not just "tolerable" as mentors for the parents' children. Good for them. If you don't like it, start up a Gay Scouts of America and refuse membership to straight men and boys. The BSA aren't the only ones who can play at that game.
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On October 09 2012 02:37 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 02:35 cloneThorN wrote:On October 09 2012 02:03 deth2munkies wrote:
Boy Scouts are a Christian organization. That's how they were founded, that's how they're run. Christianity forbids homosexuality very explicitly.
That'd be like not letting a conservative Christian into a leadership position of an organization devoted to Atheism. It is and always has been a non-issue. Christianity does not forbid homosexuality. Right wing Christians do. They're not representative of the religion or of Christians everywhere. Show nested quote +
I do not compute. Aren't christians classified as a group of people who follow a book called "The Bible: New testament"?
Even if they don't follow everything in it, you would think they supports all the direct "orders"? I'm pretty sure that the bible explicilitly condemns homosexuality.
If we talk about terms alone, then people who do not follow said book, can't be classified as christians. They would have to call themself something else, so people could distinguish the groups.
Give me a direct quote of Jesus saying that homosexuals are evil and I'll agree with you.
Fish. I honestly only read the bible long enough to find out that it was not of my interrest, and pretty insulting.
If Jesus didn't say it, then ignore my previous comment. I just thought that since alot of christians said so, then it would be true. I just assumed that people had written what they belive to be the holy word of a divine creator, which was specifically made for them.
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On October 09 2012 02:48 dUTtrOACh wrote:
Aside from the religious debate, how about if a parent doesn't want his son to spend summer break camping with a counselor / scout leader who may or may not find him sexually attractive? I'm not saying gays are child molesters, but I am suggesting that the ones who were molesting little boys probably are gay. Tolerance is one thing, but then there's enabling and then there's outright stupidity. If the BSA is acting under some archaic and stupid belief by forbidding homosexuals from being scout leaders then so be it. It's their right as an organization to refuse membership to whomever they want and to promote people in the organization as they see fit, based on the trust that they are "ideal" and not just "tolerable" as mentors for the parents' children. Good for them. If you don't like it, start up a Gay Scouts of America and refuse membership to straight men and boys. The BSA aren't the only ones who can play at that game.
...I don't think that just because you are homosexual, you are more willing to commit rape.
However i agree with you on one point. An organization should be allowed to have it's own policy, as long as A) it don't harm anyone, and B) as long as they are not supported by another organization(like the goverment) with a contradicting policy.
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On October 09 2012 02:41 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 02:37 Subversive wrote:
Give me a direct quote of Jesus saying that homosexuals are evil and I'll agree with you. I'm not a Christian, but my understanding is that the reasoning is: 1) The Old Testament condemns homosexuality in strong terms and 2) Jesus says that he has not come to abolish Old Testament law. (and yes, I'm aware that this reasoning appears problematic in light of the many OT regulations that no Christians adhere to. I imagine that there's some sort of response to this, but I don't know it.)
It's not just that, there's passages in Revelation condemning one of the churches for allowing homosexuality, saying it will bring them to ruin, there's another passage in one of the Corinthians saying explicitly, "Flee from homosexuality", there's more but I'm too lazy to look it up for some random jackoff that hasn't read the Bible and claims to know everything it says.
Also RE: the other religious affiliations, yes they are allowed, some are even supported, but they're in no way required to. They're a private group, they can do what they want. Private groups are defined by exclusivity, you have to meet certain conditions before you can join. Even so, I know for a fact that Judaism and Islam both forbid homosexuality as well, though I haven't read Vadic (sp?) scripts and I know Bhuddists don't give a shit about...well anything.
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On October 09 2012 02:48 dUTtrOACh wrote:
Aside from the religious debate, how about if a parent doesn't want his son to spend summer break camping with a counselor / scout leader who may or may not find him sexually attractive? I'm not saying gays are child molesters, but I am suggesting that the ones who were molesting little boys probably are gay.
Unless there is some connection between being gay and being a phedofile (Which I very strongly doubt there is), while there may be parents who feel like this, it is an irrelevant argument. In my opinion, phedofilia has little to do with any gender-specific sexual orientation, and more to do with mental issues. A healthy gay man or a healthy straight man simply does not molest children of any gender.
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On October 09 2012 00:54 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 00:47 neversummer wrote:
First of all I don't think anyone is supporting the Boy Scouts of America.
Secondly I applaud them for maintaining their position in the midst of criticism from the community; I've never really cared for what is "politically" correct and quite frankly I don't think gay men should be prancing around with large groups of 8-10 year old boys. The BSA doesn't have 8-10 year old boys in it... it starts at like 6-7th grade. Your comment isn't related to a gay scout being able to advance in the organization... you are talking about the leadership which is two different things. Sticking with leadership though, why is a gay male more of a thread to the scouts than a heterosexual female? Are gays more likely to be rapists than heterosexual females (which often help lead in the BSA) or male leaders in the girl scouts? Why do you call it 'prancing around' when it's a gay man? If it was a heterosexual man dedicated his free time to help run a troop, would it be 'prancing around' then? There are regulations in place to prevent sexual misconduct in the BSA. I hear about gays being punished/ejected by the BSA from time to time, but I don't hear about the ones who kept their sexuality (and therefore apparent rapists' personality, as you imply) a secret getting caught only after going on a raping binge. If you want to support the BSA in their legal right to discriminate, that is your right as well. But if you are going to try to justify your opinion on this forum, be prepared for us to call you out on your idiocy (I doubt I'm the only person who has commended as I type this)
You start when you are 11. (I am an Eagle Scout and Gay Ally for the Gay Alliance).
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On October 09 2012 02:56 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 02:48 dUTtrOACh wrote:
Aside from the religious debate, how about if a parent doesn't want his son to spend summer break camping with a counselor / scout leader who may or may not find him sexually attractive? I'm not saying gays are child molesters, but I am suggesting that the ones who were molesting little boys probably are gay. Tolerance is one thing, but then there's enabling and then there's outright stupidity. If the BSA is acting under some archaic and stupid belief by forbidding homosexuals from being scout leaders then so be it. It's their right as an organization to refuse membership to whomever they want and to promote people in the organization as they see fit, based on the trust that they are "ideal" and not just "tolerable" as mentors for the parents' children. Good for them. If you don't like it, start up a Gay Scouts of America and refuse membership to straight men and boys. The BSA aren't the only ones who can play at that game. ...I don't think that just because you are homosexual, you are more willing to commit rape. However i agree with you on one point. An organization should be allowed to have it's own policy, as long as A) it don't harm anyone, and B) as long as they are not supported by another organization(like the goverment) with a contradicting policy.
I know, and I'm not saying that they are willing to rape children, either. What I am saying is that they've had experiences where that sort of thing has happened, and believe this to be the best and most transparent preventative measure. The thing about government policy too, is that it is subject to change. While it's unlikely to see a reversal in the belief that gays are entitled to equal opportunities it's not entirely unreasonable that an organization with a reputation to uphold seeks to protect their reputation by not changing their policies which they believe to be working.
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United States24701 Posts
What is the point in discussing whether or not the bible supposedly bans homosexuality? That doesn't really affect this discussion. If you think it matters, I suggest you watch this 5 minute video clip from the West Wing which sums up my thoughts.
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On October 09 2012 02:58 KiwiQuest wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 02:48 dUTtrOACh wrote:
Aside from the religious debate, how about if a parent doesn't want his son to spend summer break camping with a counselor / scout leader who may or may not find him sexually attractive? I'm not saying gays are child molesters, but I am suggesting that the ones who were molesting little boys probably are gay. Unless there is some connection between being gay and being a phedofile (Which I very strongly doubt there is), while there may be parents who feel like this, it is an irrelevant argument. In my opinion, phedofilia has little to do with any gender-specific sexual orientation, and more to do with mental issues. A healthy gay man or a healthy straight man simply does not molest children of any gender. But a gay pedophile might molest male children, whereas a straight pedophile would not, so if one is afraid of hiring a secret pedophile, the argument becomes relevant.
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United States24701 Posts
There are female leaders in the BSA, and the majority of females are heterosexual, so just stop with the whole discussion on whether or not gay male leaders are more likely to molest scouts.
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EPT
