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Tesla Supercharger Stations - Page 2

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RockIronrod
Profile Joined May 2011
Australia1369 Posts
June 01 2013 03:05 GMT
#21
Charging stations like this are probably the best investment the company could make right now, getting an infrastructure in place now will make them a much more viable alternative in the future, especially when battery lives are increased.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-01 03:07:38
June 01 2013 03:06 GMT
#22
Not to mention they plan to build other vehicles besides the Roadster and Models S, & X.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
iTzSnypah
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1738 Posts
June 01 2013 03:14 GMT
#23
Meh I think they should just miniaturize nuclear reactors and hook it up to a peltier... No need for recharging stations ever.
Team Liquid needs more Terrans.
ImFromPortugal
Profile Joined April 2010
Portugal1368 Posts
June 01 2013 03:32 GMT
#24
this almost made me cry... makes me dream of free energy for all... if only Tesla was alive to see it finally come true ;')
Yes im
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
June 01 2013 03:35 GMT
#25
On June 01 2013 11:49 SnipedSoul wrote:
Doesn't really fast charging completely ruin battery service life? It would suck if you needed a new set of batteries every couple of years.
Not on tesla's cars they are designed to take it, also their batteries i think have a 7 year warranty on it i believe.
On June 01 2013 11:44 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 01 2013 11:42 Najda wrote:
20 minutes is a long time to hold up a spot at a station. Imagine Tesla cars become popular; then waiting for a spot at one of these stations would take longer than charging it. Although it would make for an interesting meetup spot for all the Tesla travelers.


Bathroom breaks, getting something to eat then drive another 350 miles or w/e the limit is. Not too bad.

I'm not sure if they would parallel gas cars, and so be equivalent to how busy gas stations are if scaled up. Because unlike gas powered cars you just don't let it set overnight i'm sure anyone who owns a tesla has a way to change their car overnight on a regular basis.
On June 01 2013 12:14 iTzSnypah wrote:
Meh I think they should just miniaturize nuclear reactors and hook it up to a peltier... No need for recharging stations ever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Nucleon
not necular powered but an actual limited production car
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car
Perdac Curall
Profile Joined June 2011
242 Posts
June 01 2013 03:44 GMT
#26
On September 26 2012 23:55 POiNTx wrote:

The Supercharger stations are completely powered by solar energy and Tesla owners won't have to pay anything.




Sounds nice, for about 8-10 hours per day, depending on the season. For the other 14-16 hours in the day, where is the energy going to come from? And what about northern states that have 6 months of winter? Even less sunlight then. Going to have to have more than solar if you want 100% "green" energy. What about when it is a cloudy day? Tesla owners are just stranded at the "Supercharger" station?

Sorry, but as someone studying electrical engineering, the fawning over these incredibly inefficient and intermittent power sources like solar and wind really bothers me. They are not the panacea the green crowd thinks they are.
If a Black Death could spread throughout the world once in every generation, survivors could procreate freely without making the world too full. The state of affairs might be unpleasant, but what of it? -Sith Lord Bertrand Russell
NovaTheFeared
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States7222 Posts
June 01 2013 03:51 GMT
#27
On June 01 2013 12:44 Perdac Curall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2012 23:55 POiNTx wrote:

The Supercharger stations are completely powered by solar energy and Tesla owners won't have to pay anything.




Sounds nice, for about 8-10 hours per day, depending on the season. For the other 14-16 hours in the day, where is the energy going to come from? And what about northern states that have 6 months of winter? Even less sunlight then. Going to have to have more than solar if you want 100% "green" energy. What about when it is a cloudy day? Tesla owners are just stranded at the "Supercharger" station?

Sorry, but as someone studying electrical engineering, the fawning over these incredibly inefficient and intermittent power sources like solar and wind really bothers me. They are not the panacea the green crowd thinks they are.


Didn't he say it's connected to the power grid feeding more energy on average than used by the cars themselves? So if it's "cloudy" the energy could be drawn from other sources on the grid, but overall there will be more net solar energy created than used. Solves the 24/7 issue nicely.
日本語が分かりますか
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10356 Posts
June 01 2013 03:51 GMT
#28
I really don't see how this idea is a winner. So you go on a road trip with an electric car, what do you do when you get to your hotel? You bring an extension cord and run it to your car to charge it up overnight? It is my belief that people that own a tesla are the same crowd that own a Prius. They are not poor by any means. They probably have another gas powered car besides their Tesla. So if they want to go on a road trip why would they trade in the reliability of their gas powered car for their Tesla just to save a few bucks on gas? I guess maybe if the inconvenience of having to charge your car every so often and search maps for charging stations is part of the "adventure" then that might entice them. I'm not seeing it.
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-01 03:58:13
June 01 2013 03:54 GMT
#29
On June 01 2013 12:44 Perdac Curall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2012 23:55 POiNTx wrote:

The Supercharger stations are completely powered by solar energy and Tesla owners won't have to pay anything.




Sounds nice, for about 8-10 hours per day, depending on the season. For the other 14-16 hours in the day, where is the energy going to come from? And what about northern states that have 6 months of winter? Even less sunlight then. Going to have to have more than solar if you want 100% "green" energy. What about when it is a cloudy day? Tesla owners are just stranded at the "Supercharger" station?

Sorry, but as someone studying electrical engineering, the fawning over these incredibly inefficient and intermittent power sources like solar and wind really bothers me. They are not the panacea the green crowd thinks they are.

Batteries in the station store energy would be the obvious answer.... it works just like emergency telephone boxes on the side of the road. Solar panel on top to get energy when it can and battery pack somewhere to store energy for times when a solar panel isn't enough. Also winter doesn't mean pitch black, solar panels will still work although not at well on cloudy days, also for areas where sun is less reliable you can still connect it to the grid, even work out a station without any ability to store energy and it just puts energy back into the grid when no one is there and takes energy when there is no sun.
On June 01 2013 12:51 BlackJack wrote:
I really don't see how this idea is a winner. So you go on a road trip with an electric car, what do you do when you get to your hotel? You bring an extension cord and run it to your car to charge it up overnight? It is my belief that people that own a tesla are the same crowd that own a Prius. They are not poor by any means. They probably have another gas powered car besides their Tesla. So if they want to go on a road trip why would they trade in the reliability of their gas powered car for their Tesla just to save a few bucks on gas? I guess maybe if the inconvenience of having to charge your car every so often and search maps for charging stations is part of the "adventure" then that might entice them. I'm not seeing it.

Not really an electric motor is far more reliable then a internal combustion engine. You just have to plan out your road trip carefully choosing the right rout/ right areas to spend the night. I'm sure there are hotels that have electric charging stations in their parking lot. Hell if target can have them in the front i'm sure other business can.
Perdac Curall
Profile Joined June 2011
242 Posts
June 01 2013 05:07 GMT
#30
On June 01 2013 12:51 NovaTheFeared wrote:

Didn't he say it's connected to the power grid feeding more energy on average than used by the cars themselves? So if it's "cloudy" the energy could be drawn from other sources on the grid, but overall there will be more net solar energy created than used. Solves the 24/7 issue nicely.


The estimates of putting back more energy into the grid may work for Southern California, but I guarantee you there will be no net gain in New York State or Montana. If it is connected to the grid it's a different story. I think it is a much better idea to be connected to the grid anyway, for much of the U.S. I don't think it would be possible to do it without taking from the grid often. Especially if Teslas start selling more and the demand for recharging goes up.


On June 01 2013 12:54 semantics wrote:

Batteries in the station store energy would be the obvious answer.... it works just like emergency telephone boxes on the side of the road. Solar panel on top to get energy when it can and battery pack somewhere to store energy for times when a solar panel isn't enough. Also winter doesn't mean pitch black, solar panels will still work although not at well on cloudy days, also for areas where sun is less reliable you can still connect it to the grid, even work out a station without any ability to store energy and it just puts energy back into the grid when no one is there and takes energy when there is no sun.


No in winter the sun is actually physically bombarding us with less energy, that's why it's winter and everything dies. Combine that with an average solar panel efficiency of 13% and you get piss poor performance on cloudy days and in winter. Batteries would be costly, and I doubt in most northern states that enough excess would be produced to satisfy demand for recharging during the remaining 14 hours of the day, especially if Teslas start to sell more. However, now that I know it is connected to the grid, it is a moot point.
If a Black Death could spread throughout the world once in every generation, survivors could procreate freely without making the world too full. The state of affairs might be unpleasant, but what of it? -Sith Lord Bertrand Russell
denzelz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States604 Posts
June 01 2013 05:43 GMT
#31


No in winter the sun is actually physically bombarding us with less energy, that's why it's winter and everything dies. Combine that with an average solar panel efficiency of 13% and you get piss poor performance on cloudy days and in winter. Batteries would be costly, and I doubt in most northern states that enough excess would be produced to satisfy demand for recharging during the remaining 14 hours of the day, especially if Teslas start to sell more. However, now that I know it is connected to the grid, it is a moot point.


I really don't know where your hate is coming from. Musk is not at all proposing that we switch away from traditional fuel sources. These supercharging stations just happen to be sourced by solar while connected to a grid. It is not like these charging stations are going to suddenly change the energy portfolio in every state in the U.S. In addition, depending on how many stations are located in sunny states, the number of panels at each station, and the type of fuel it's locally replacing, this whole operation could generate a net energy gain. Tesla is such a niche car company, and even those who buy Tesla, I imagine only a small proportion would want to take a cross-country road trip, I feel like this hardly matters.

And even if this all fails, Musk just spent private money to build public infrastructure. There's literally very few things not to like about this plan.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24637 Posts
June 01 2013 05:49 GMT
#32
I'm going to do a bit of math here. In the following video (from earlier in the thread) you get a good look at a charging station, and I'll estimate the dimensions of the panel is 5m x 10m = 50m^2.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371735#15

According to this map, my location in NY receives about 4 kWh per m^2 per day. In other words, a charging station is getting about 50*4 = 200 kWh per day.

According to Tesla's website, their batteries are typically a 60 kWh or 85 kWh. In order to almost fully recharge such batteries, you only get ~3 cars charged per day.

What am I missing?
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
neggro
Profile Joined August 2012
United States591 Posts
June 01 2013 05:52 GMT
#33
good story by tesla. goes to show good things happen when you give seed money to people how actually know what they are doing!
Unisane
Profile Joined December 2010
18 Posts
June 01 2013 06:18 GMT
#34
On June 01 2013 14:49 micronesia wrote:
I'm going to do a bit of math here. In the following video (from earlier in the thread) you get a good look at a charging station, and I'll estimate the dimensions of the panel is 5m x 10m = 50m^2.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371735#15

According to this map, my location in NY receives about 4 kWh per m^2 per day. In other words, a charging station is getting about 50*4 = 200 kWh per day.

According to Tesla's website, their batteries are typically a 60 kWh or 85 kWh. In order to almost fully recharge such batteries, you only get ~3 cars charged per day.

What am I missing?


I'm sure it's like an "overall" thing. Some areas won't produce as much solar power as others but since this is all across the United States it'll be looked at from an overall value not just a specific area. Plus the more they scale means more stations; the more stations means that more of them won't be used all the time so the stations would just be generating power while they are idle. At least I'm assuming that's their idea of it, not sure i don't work for tesla haha. Overtime it seems like a great idea. They are going to have a ridiculous time with technical difficulties since I'm sure the standard mechanic on one of those things is going to need to be a "bit" more highly trained than the average gas station mechanic haha
Feartheguru
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada1334 Posts
June 01 2013 06:18 GMT
#35
A lot of people here have very poor understanding of current battery technology. If we had batteries good enough to store enough solar energy for non-sunny times, we wouldn't need these stations in the first place.
Don't sweat the petty stuff, don't pet the sweaty stuff.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24637 Posts
June 01 2013 06:22 GMT
#36
On June 01 2013 15:18 Unisane wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 01 2013 14:49 micronesia wrote:
I'm going to do a bit of math here. In the following video (from earlier in the thread) you get a good look at a charging station, and I'll estimate the dimensions of the panel is 5m x 10m = 50m^2.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371735#15

According to this map, my location in NY receives about 4 kWh per m^2 per day. In other words, a charging station is getting about 50*4 = 200 kWh per day.

According to Tesla's website, their batteries are typically a 60 kWh or 85 kWh. In order to almost fully recharge such batteries, you only get ~3 cars charged per day.

What am I missing?

I'm sure it's like an "overall" thing. Some areas won't produce as much solar power as others but since this is all across the United States it'll be looked at from an overall value not just a specific area. Plus the more they scale means more stations; the more stations means that more of them won't be used all the time so the stations would just be generating power while they are idle.

But, 3 cars a day is a drop in the bucket. In a sunnier region it would be higher, but only like 4 cars a day. Something seems off entirely.

Based on what I'm seeing, the solar panels would only account for a tiny percentage of all charging. In other words, these would just be free charging stations running off the local electric grid, except for those first few cars of the day. It is not a viable model at all. There is something wrong.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Salazarz
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Korea (South)2591 Posts
June 01 2013 06:47 GMT
#37
I don't get the haters really. Of course with current figures it's inefficient and not sustainable - if it was, everyone would be doing it already. Investing money into this means more opportunities to further develop the technologies used, attract more manpower and resources to further the whole matter of electric cars AND solar power - both of which have potential for greatness. It's like the fusion power project they're working on in France - it won't replace current power sources in it's first iteration, but there's a good chance it will pave the way for something good. We should be happy there are people in the world willing to.commit their capital to something like this really.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24637 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-01 07:19:20
June 01 2013 06:52 GMT
#38
On June 01 2013 15:47 Salazarz wrote:
I don't get the haters really. Of course with current figures it's inefficient and not sustainable

I can't speak for others, but what is being presented (unless I made a mistake somewhere in my rudimentary analysis) does not make any sense. If someone is advertising a network of sun-powered charging stations, then it's not being a hater to ask for clarification on how they get enough solar power to actually charge the cars that plug in to them.

edit: I want to clarify that the speaker in the video in the OP is stressing the fact that these charging stations would be powered entirely by solar (net). My analysis shows this is not reasonably possible, by a long-shot. Am I missing something or is he completely full of shit?
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
skyR
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada13817 Posts
June 01 2013 07:38 GMT
#39
They're connected to the Solar City grid so they buy / sell power when needed. And I doubt many of these stations even get any use so...
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5424 Posts
June 01 2013 07:46 GMT
#40
On June 01 2013 15:52 micronesia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 01 2013 15:47 Salazarz wrote:
I don't get the haters really. Of course with current figures it's inefficient and not sustainable

I can't speak for others, but what is being presented (unless I made a mistake somewhere in my rudimentary analysis) does not make any sense. If someone is advertising a network of sun-powered charging stations, then it's not being a hater to ask for clarification on how they get enough solar power to actually charge the cars that plug in to them.

You aren't trying to figure out how Tesla's system works, you're making things up based on your personal idea of how you think a solar charging network should work. Then you wave your finger at a company with thousands of smart employees and go "I bet you never thought of more cars going to a supercharger in a day than that particular supercharger's solar power capacity can handle!" Because you saw a picture of a solar panel and thought you could eyeball its dimensions?

That is similar to Lord Kelvin seeing a picture of the Wright Brothers' plane and going "It looks like the wings are maybe 5 meters by 10 meters, now assuming they're made of solid oak I don't think they can produce enough lift to also carry the weight of the engine and a grown pilot." How do you know the dimensions of one charging station because you saw a picture of it? The cars are 5 meters long, but maybe the canopy extends 7 meters for shade or comfort in the rain? How do you know the canopy only 2 car lengths wide? Is the charging station you saw a picture of representative of an average charging station? What's the average demand for charging on a given day? How many cars? What's the average amount of power per car? How much power do drivers want on an average day? Remember a 50% charge is 20 minutes. And people do their own charging at home.

Obviously not every watt is going directly from the sun to the battery given that there are superchargers that have no solar panels whatsoever. The claim is that the stations generate more power than the cars use in a year. The fact that you don't have insider access to Tesla's margins doesn't mean the math doesn't add up. In the meantime we can all enjoy the free supercharging for life that, regardless of your New York Times level criticisms, the company is providing.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
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