EPTTesla Supercharger Stations - Page 2
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RockIronrod
Australia1369 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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iTzSnypah
United States1738 Posts
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ImFromPortugal
Portugal1368 Posts
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semantics
10040 Posts
On June 01 2013 11:49 SnipedSoul wrote: Not on tesla's cars they are designed to take it, also their batteries i think have a 7 year warranty on it i believe.Doesn't really fast charging completely ruin battery service life? It would suck if you needed a new set of batteries every couple of years. On June 01 2013 11:44 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Bathroom breaks, getting something to eat then drive another 350 miles or w/e the limit is. Not too bad. I'm not sure if they would parallel gas cars, and so be equivalent to how busy gas stations are if scaled up. Because unlike gas powered cars you just don't let it set overnight i'm sure anyone who owns a tesla has a way to change their car overnight on a regular basis. On June 01 2013 12:14 iTzSnypah wrote: Meh I think they should just miniaturize nuclear reactors and hook it up to a peltier... No need for recharging stations ever. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Nucleon not necular powered but an actual limited production car http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car | ||
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Perdac Curall
242 Posts
On September 26 2012 23:55 POiNTx wrote: The Supercharger stations are completely powered by solar energy and Tesla owners won't have to pay anything. Sounds nice, for about 8-10 hours per day, depending on the season. For the other 14-16 hours in the day, where is the energy going to come from? And what about northern states that have 6 months of winter? Even less sunlight then. Going to have to have more than solar if you want 100% "green" energy. What about when it is a cloudy day? Tesla owners are just stranded at the "Supercharger" station? Sorry, but as someone studying electrical engineering, the fawning over these incredibly inefficient and intermittent power sources like solar and wind really bothers me. They are not the panacea the green crowd thinks they are. | ||
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NovaTheFeared
United States7232 Posts
On June 01 2013 12:44 Perdac Curall wrote: Sounds nice, for about 8-10 hours per day, depending on the season. For the other 14-16 hours in the day, where is the energy going to come from? And what about northern states that have 6 months of winter? Even less sunlight then. Going to have to have more than solar if you want 100% "green" energy. What about when it is a cloudy day? Tesla owners are just stranded at the "Supercharger" station? Sorry, but as someone studying electrical engineering, the fawning over these incredibly inefficient and intermittent power sources like solar and wind really bothers me. They are not the panacea the green crowd thinks they are. Didn't he say it's connected to the power grid feeding more energy on average than used by the cars themselves? So if it's "cloudy" the energy could be drawn from other sources on the grid, but overall there will be more net solar energy created than used. Solves the 24/7 issue nicely. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
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semantics
10040 Posts
On June 01 2013 12:44 Perdac Curall wrote: Sounds nice, for about 8-10 hours per day, depending on the season. For the other 14-16 hours in the day, where is the energy going to come from? And what about northern states that have 6 months of winter? Even less sunlight then. Going to have to have more than solar if you want 100% "green" energy. What about when it is a cloudy day? Tesla owners are just stranded at the "Supercharger" station? Sorry, but as someone studying electrical engineering, the fawning over these incredibly inefficient and intermittent power sources like solar and wind really bothers me. They are not the panacea the green crowd thinks they are. Batteries in the station store energy would be the obvious answer.... it works just like emergency telephone boxes on the side of the road. Solar panel on top to get energy when it can and battery pack somewhere to store energy for times when a solar panel isn't enough. Also winter doesn't mean pitch black, solar panels will still work although not at well on cloudy days, also for areas where sun is less reliable you can still connect it to the grid, even work out a station without any ability to store energy and it just puts energy back into the grid when no one is there and takes energy when there is no sun. On June 01 2013 12:51 BlackJack wrote: I really don't see how this idea is a winner. So you go on a road trip with an electric car, what do you do when you get to your hotel? You bring an extension cord and run it to your car to charge it up overnight? It is my belief that people that own a tesla are the same crowd that own a Prius. They are not poor by any means. They probably have another gas powered car besides their Tesla. So if they want to go on a road trip why would they trade in the reliability of their gas powered car for their Tesla just to save a few bucks on gas? I guess maybe if the inconvenience of having to charge your car every so often and search maps for charging stations is part of the "adventure" then that might entice them. I'm not seeing it. Not really an electric motor is far more reliable then a internal combustion engine. You just have to plan out your road trip carefully choosing the right rout/ right areas to spend the night. I'm sure there are hotels that have electric charging stations in their parking lot. Hell if target can have them in the front i'm sure other business can. | ||
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Perdac Curall
242 Posts
On June 01 2013 12:51 NovaTheFeared wrote: Didn't he say it's connected to the power grid feeding more energy on average than used by the cars themselves? So if it's "cloudy" the energy could be drawn from other sources on the grid, but overall there will be more net solar energy created than used. Solves the 24/7 issue nicely. The estimates of putting back more energy into the grid may work for Southern California, but I guarantee you there will be no net gain in New York State or Montana. If it is connected to the grid it's a different story. I think it is a much better idea to be connected to the grid anyway, for much of the U.S. I don't think it would be possible to do it without taking from the grid often. Especially if Teslas start selling more and the demand for recharging goes up. On June 01 2013 12:54 semantics wrote: Batteries in the station store energy would be the obvious answer.... it works just like emergency telephone boxes on the side of the road. Solar panel on top to get energy when it can and battery pack somewhere to store energy for times when a solar panel isn't enough. Also winter doesn't mean pitch black, solar panels will still work although not at well on cloudy days, also for areas where sun is less reliable you can still connect it to the grid, even work out a station without any ability to store energy and it just puts energy back into the grid when no one is there and takes energy when there is no sun. No in winter the sun is actually physically bombarding us with less energy, that's why it's winter and everything dies. Combine that with an average solar panel efficiency of 13% and you get piss poor performance on cloudy days and in winter. Batteries would be costly, and I doubt in most northern states that enough excess would be produced to satisfy demand for recharging during the remaining 14 hours of the day, especially if Teslas start to sell more. However, now that I know it is connected to the grid, it is a moot point. | ||
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denzelz
United States604 Posts
No in winter the sun is actually physically bombarding us with less energy, that's why it's winter and everything dies. Combine that with an average solar panel efficiency of 13% and you get piss poor performance on cloudy days and in winter. Batteries would be costly, and I doubt in most northern states that enough excess would be produced to satisfy demand for recharging during the remaining 14 hours of the day, especially if Teslas start to sell more. However, now that I know it is connected to the grid, it is a moot point. I really don't know where your hate is coming from. Musk is not at all proposing that we switch away from traditional fuel sources. These supercharging stations just happen to be sourced by solar while connected to a grid. It is not like these charging stations are going to suddenly change the energy portfolio in every state in the U.S. In addition, depending on how many stations are located in sunny states, the number of panels at each station, and the type of fuel it's locally replacing, this whole operation could generate a net energy gain. Tesla is such a niche car company, and even those who buy Tesla, I imagine only a small proportion would want to take a cross-country road trip, I feel like this hardly matters. And even if this all fails, Musk just spent private money to build public infrastructure. There's literally very few things not to like about this plan. | ||
micronesia
United States24813 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371735#15 According to this map, my location in NY receives about 4 kWh per m^2 per day. In other words, a charging station is getting about 50*4 = 200 kWh per day. According to Tesla's website, their batteries are typically a 60 kWh or 85 kWh. In order to almost fully recharge such batteries, you only get ~3 cars charged per day. What am I missing? | ||
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neggro
United States591 Posts
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Unisane
18 Posts
On June 01 2013 14:49 micronesia wrote: I'm going to do a bit of math here. In the following video (from earlier in the thread) you get a good look at a charging station, and I'll estimate the dimensions of the panel is 5m x 10m = 50m^2. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371735#15 According to this map, my location in NY receives about 4 kWh per m^2 per day. In other words, a charging station is getting about 50*4 = 200 kWh per day. According to Tesla's website, their batteries are typically a 60 kWh or 85 kWh. In order to almost fully recharge such batteries, you only get ~3 cars charged per day. What am I missing? I'm sure it's like an "overall" thing. Some areas won't produce as much solar power as others but since this is all across the United States it'll be looked at from an overall value not just a specific area. Plus the more they scale means more stations; the more stations means that more of them won't be used all the time so the stations would just be generating power while they are idle. At least I'm assuming that's their idea of it, not sure i don't work for tesla haha. Overtime it seems like a great idea. They are going to have a ridiculous time with technical difficulties since I'm sure the standard mechanic on one of those things is going to need to be a "bit" more highly trained than the average gas station mechanic haha | ||
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Feartheguru
Canada1334 Posts
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micronesia
United States24813 Posts
On June 01 2013 15:18 Unisane wrote: I'm sure it's like an "overall" thing. Some areas won't produce as much solar power as others but since this is all across the United States it'll be looked at from an overall value not just a specific area. Plus the more they scale means more stations; the more stations means that more of them won't be used all the time so the stations would just be generating power while they are idle. But, 3 cars a day is a drop in the bucket. In a sunnier region it would be higher, but only like 4 cars a day. Something seems off entirely. Based on what I'm seeing, the solar panels would only account for a tiny percentage of all charging. In other words, these would just be free charging stations running off the local electric grid, except for those first few cars of the day. It is not a viable model at all. There is something wrong. | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
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micronesia
United States24813 Posts
On June 01 2013 15:47 Salazarz wrote: I don't get the haters really. Of course with current figures it's inefficient and not sustainable I can't speak for others, but what is being presented (unless I made a mistake somewhere in my rudimentary analysis) does not make any sense. If someone is advertising a network of sun-powered charging stations, then it's not being a hater to ask for clarification on how they get enough solar power to actually charge the cars that plug in to them. edit: I want to clarify that the speaker in the video in the OP is stressing the fact that these charging stations would be powered entirely by solar (net). My analysis shows this is not reasonably possible, by a long-shot. Am I missing something or is he completely full of shit? | ||
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skyR
Canada13817 Posts
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oBlade
United States6678 Posts
On June 01 2013 15:52 micronesia wrote: I can't speak for others, but what is being presented (unless I made a mistake somewhere in my rudimentary analysis) does not make any sense. If someone is advertising a network of sun-powered charging stations, then it's not being a hater to ask for clarification on how they get enough solar power to actually charge the cars that plug in to them. You aren't trying to figure out how Tesla's system works, you're making things up based on your personal idea of how you think a solar charging network should work. Then you wave your finger at a company with thousands of smart employees and go "I bet you never thought of more cars going to a supercharger in a day than that particular supercharger's solar power capacity can handle!" Because you saw a picture of a solar panel and thought you could eyeball its dimensions? That is similar to Lord Kelvin seeing a picture of the Wright Brothers' plane and going "It looks like the wings are maybe 5 meters by 10 meters, now assuming they're made of solid oak I don't think they can produce enough lift to also carry the weight of the engine and a grown pilot." How do you know the dimensions of one charging station because you saw a picture of it? The cars are 5 meters long, but maybe the canopy extends 7 meters for shade or comfort in the rain? How do you know the canopy only 2 car lengths wide? Is the charging station you saw a picture of representative of an average charging station? What's the average demand for charging on a given day? How many cars? What's the average amount of power per car? How much power do drivers want on an average day? Remember a 50% charge is 20 minutes. And people do their own charging at home. Obviously not every watt is going directly from the sun to the battery given that there are superchargers that have no solar panels whatsoever. The claim is that the stations generate more power than the cars use in a year. The fact that you don't have insider access to Tesla's margins doesn't mean the math doesn't add up. In the meantime we can all enjoy the free supercharging for life that, regardless of your New York Times level criticisms, the company is providing. | ||
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