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NTTemplar
609 Posts
On September 02 2012 17:11 drwiggl3s wrote: NTTemplar, are you high right now? Honest question. Because we already have a thread for that. No :o I suspect more a case of poor english from my side. :-) On September 02 2012 17:15 acker wrote: ...What on earth does your above post even mean, NTTemplar? I don't understand the question. :o | ||
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LeSioN
United States325 Posts
On September 02 2012 16:02 NTTemplar wrote: Not every person got good judgement, also the majority of people in their early teens smoke/drink/etc for all the wrong reasons like either fitting in, "rebelling" etc and often lack the capacity to make the right call. On my list I would exclude alcohol if people could control themselves better as it is helpful for many to have a better time in many social gatherings and its harm is minimal when taken at reasonable amounts, as it mostly is just like candy that it is unhealthy food; however still exclude smoking since I am allergic and how it directly affects those around you, as compared to drinking which only affects you (but you in turn of course can do stupid things if you get too drunk) Also my values are just what is biological optimal for the body; which is excercise, proper eating habits and healthy food. That smart people will stay away from something doesn't mean we let stupid people harm themselves, to me that is like letting someone with autism live like a normal person, let them have to take care of everything themselves, which is beyond the capabilites of a lot of autists, or let someone with depression deal with it as they see fit, maybe through drinking deadly amounts of alcohol to cope with the mental pain the disorder cause. If you do drugs, or drink significant amounts often, or smoke, or have similar habits, you are lacking judgement in a particular field. Not limiting harmful substances to me is an elitist view, feels like the smart people don't care if less fortunate people kill themselves and if the world went to hell they would have no problem staying in a bunker and watch millions outside be nuked to death or whatever. You will of course have to judge the strength of my arguements yourself, but as for evidence alcohol kills ontop of being unhealthy as compared to candy that only has a history of being unhealthy, smoking kills ontop of harming those around you (unless you only smoke with other smokers or alone, ALWAYS) and a lot of drugs also kill. ONLY thing all of the substances have in common is a temporary benefical effect for your psyche, smoking is a stressreliever, drinking takes away emotional pain, drugs do all short of weird stuff depending on which you take, but I believe most can be put under giving the effect of being "high". I believe in the freedom of choice, but also in protecting people with poor judgement, because all people are someones loved ones, and it is terrible to lose or even just see them harmed. edit- somehow quoted the wrong thing XD who are you to declare whether something is a "good" decision or not? weed has never been proven harmful. no one has ever died from it, and more and more studies show that it has valid medical uses such as curing cancer. dont tell me what to do because you think you have good judgement. i believe living life "substance free" is an admirable thing but dont lie to people and try to trick them into making decisions you would make, because you assume you have better "judgement" | ||
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FragKrag
United States11552 Posts
As far as legalizing weed (ie Marlboro Greens), I have to say I disagree. Decriminalizing it and making it an extremely low priority to law enforcement (along with other drugs) would be a good idea imo. | ||
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SeoSage
Canada2 Posts
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Sea_Food
Finland1612 Posts
On September 02 2012 16:37 SpiffD wrote: Buddy you better reread your biology textbook from highschool. Yeast only makes alcohol in the absence of oxygen which is not the case when breadmaking. Even if it did make alcohol as a byproduct when making bread wouldn't make alcohol a core food product. When you make bread, 99,9% of the yeast is in absence of oxygen, thus it produces alcohol. Also people I didnt mean that alcohol is a core product in bread, but in the whole cooking industry. You pour vine into your sauce, and many people drink alcohol for the taste, not to get drunk. I dont know many people who smoke weed for the taste, not to get high. | ||
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LeSioN
United States325 Posts
On September 02 2012 15:57 TheRabidDeer wrote: I think alcohol and weed are equally addictive. That is to say, the only way you become addicted to either is when you use them as escape mechanisms (or maybe if it runs in your family). Cigarettes however, are truly addictive and the only reason they are legal (hopefully) is because prohibition wont work on them at this point. marijuana is not addictive. alcohol is. its not something thats subject to opinion. simple facts. why wouldnt prohibition work on cigarettes? there is no benefit to smoking cigarettes. if you have to smoke in closed doors for fear of a ticket i doubt people would grow tobbacco in their homes. i know most smokers would rather not smoke than roll their own already.also both alcohol and marijuana provide an "escape" that people need, akin to entertainment | ||
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LeSioN
United States325 Posts
On September 02 2012 17:50 FragKrag wrote: Cannabis should definitely be available to people who can use it for medicinal purposes, but outright legalizing weed just seems like a bad idea. The medical cannabis systems in many US states are very effective (albeit a bit corrupt in some cases) at what they do. As far as legalizing weed (ie Marlboro Greens), I have to say I disagree. Decriminalizing it and making it an extremely low priority to law enforcement (along with other drugs) would be a good idea imo. people who are sick should be allowed to use something that is a bad idea for healthy people? we should decriminalize it so we can not tax it and drug dealers continue to run rampant and sell to minors. good idea | ||
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FragKrag
United States11552 Posts
On September 02 2012 18:03 LeSioN wrote: people who are sick should be allowed to use something that is a bad idea for healthy people? we should decriminalize it so we can not tax it and drug dealers continue to run rampant and sell to minors. good idea medicine is medicine... Would you be for allowing everybody to buy benzos, morphine, etc OTC? Selling to minors as a reason to legalize it? Legalizing weed will have zero effect on minors getting access to weed just like increasing the drinking age to 21 had zero effect on minors getting alcohol. sure we can get tax money, but there are other ways to get money. | ||
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LeSioN
United States325 Posts
On September 02 2012 18:08 FragKrag wrote: medicine is medicine... Would you be for allowing everybody to buy benzos, morphine, etc OTC? Selling to minors as a reason to legalize it? Legalizing weed will have zero effect on minors getting access to weed just like increasing the drinking age to 21 had zero effect on minors getting alcohol. sure we can get tax money, but there are other ways to get money. i dont think people should be able to buy those drugs at all, as they kill hundreds of thousands of people and could be replaced with marijuana which has never killed a single person. "Many teens start smoking pot in their early teens because they don't need to know someone who is 21 to get it. Young people know who the drug dealers are at school or in the neighborhood, and they know they can get marijuana any time they want it. Research by the National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse (CASA) at Columbia University echoes these findings. In a recent study, 40 percent of teens reported that they could get marijuana within a day, and another 25 percent said they could get it within an hour, making marijuana easier to get than cigarettes, beer and prescription drugs. Some parents are contributing to the problem. According to the CASA study, 25 percent of teens surveyed know a parent of a classmate or friend who uses marijuana, and 10 percent say this parent smokes marijuana with adolescents." | ||
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esla_sol
United States756 Posts
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NTTemplar
609 Posts
On September 02 2012 17:43 LeSioN wrote: edit- somehow quoted the wrong thing XD who are you to declare whether something is a "good" decision or not? weed has never been proven harmful. no one has ever died from it, and more and more studies show that it has valid medical uses such as curing cancer. dont tell me what to do because you think you have good judgement. i believe living life "substance free" is an admirable thing but dont lie to people and try to trick them into making decisions you would make, because you assume you have better "judgement" There are a lot of steps between being deadly and being good. Example, cutting off your leg won't kill you, but if you don't find it harmful you are insane. Weed, different from the other things I mentioned, might not be deadly but it is still greatly harmful. To find the plethora of negative effects of weed is easy, and they speak for themselves, I question your judgement if you don't think it is harmful. That is not to say it doesn't have positive effects that in situations can outweight the bad which is the case for a lot of medicine. However as someone said, a lot of medicine is still controlled heavily since it is easy to missuse. I am no "pro-substance free" I am pro-notputtingthingsintoyourbodythatjustfucksitup, but I don't tell people what to do either, the thread asked for my opinion which I gave, I still don't go spreading it like religion; by all means, kill yourself or otherwise diminish your life with whatever substance you'd like. (since sarcasm is hard to spot on the internet, that was. I certainly do not wish death upon you.) What arguement would someone make for "dont lie to people and try to trick them into making decisions you would make, because you assume you have better "judgement"" when it comes to alcohol, smoking, weed, different drugs, etc If your goal was to make someones life as good as possible, would it include any of those substances, if it would, how do you defend that? | ||
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[DUF]MethodMan
Germany1716 Posts
On September 02 2012 11:16 Mondieu wrote: Well what exactly are the benefits of legalizing weeds ? Is our society really missing out on something like this? Do you really feel like if we legalize weed just because ''it's fun'' it would help our human race? People are already pretty stupid and lazy. Legalize that shit and instead of doing something more productive they would just ''relax''. I really don't care about the subject since people are free to do what they want, but legalizing it would be just senseless imho. edit: TL isn't the proper place to discuss this imo, since many people are biased :D And kick the niggers out, they lazy too, aight? | ||
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farvacola
United States18825 Posts
On September 02 2012 18:21 NTTemplar wrote: If your goal was to make someones life as good as possibal, would it include any of those substances, if it would, how do you defend that? That would be a facile and supercilious goal, but even if I were brazen enough to consider my brand of "good" universal enough to apply to society at large, the right to direct ones own life would trump relatively minor circumspect health concerns. | ||
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FragKrag
United States11552 Posts
On September 02 2012 18:19 LeSioN wrote: i dont think people should be able to buy those drugs at all, as they kill hundreds of thousands of people and could be replaced with marijuana which has never killed a single person. ok....... you seem to think of weed as some kind of miracle drug, and I won't bother to try to correct you. also, this idea of having to have the potential to kill as a measuring stick is seriously misguided. Something doesn't have to be able to kill you in order to fuck your life right? On September 02 2012 18:19 LeSioN wrote:"Many teens start smoking pot in their early teens because they don't need to know someone who is 21 to get it. Young people know who the drug dealers are at school or in the neighborhood, and they know they can get marijuana any time they want it. Research by the National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse (CASA) at Columbia University echoes these findings. In a recent study, 40 percent of teens reported that they could get marijuana within a day, and another 25 percent said they could get it within an hour, making marijuana easier to get than cigarettes, beer and prescription drugs. Some parents are contributing to the problem. According to the CASA study, 25 percent of teens surveyed know a parent of a classmate or friend who uses marijuana, and 10 percent say this parent smokes marijuana with adolescents." yeah legalizing it won't help this | ||
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NTTemplar
609 Posts
On September 02 2012 18:26 farvacola wrote: That would be a facile and supercilious goal, but even if I were brazen enough to consider my brand of "good" universal enough to apply to society at large, the right to direct ones own life would trump relatively minor circumspect health concerns. Do you believe in letting people suffering from different autism disorders live without any special care like the average person? | ||
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LeSioN
United States325 Posts
[QUOTE]On September 02 2012 17:43 LeSioN wrote: [QUOTE]On September 02 2012 16:02 NTTemplar wrote: [QUOTE]On September 02 2012 12:27 JacobShock wrote: [QUOTE]On September 02 2012 11:59 NTTemplar wrote: [/QUOTE] edit- somehow quoted the wrong thing XD who are you to declare whether something is a "good" decision or not? weed has never been proven harmful. no one has ever died from it, and more and more studies show that it has valid medical uses such as curing cancer. dont tell me what to do because you think you have good judgement. i believe living life "substance free" is an admirable thing but dont lie to people and try to trick them into making decisions you would make, because you assume you have better "judgement"[/QUOTE] There are a lot of steps between being deadly and being good. Weed, different from the other things I mentioned, might not be deadly but it is still greatly harmful. To find the plethora of negative effects of weed is easy, and they speak for themselves, I question your judgement if you don't think it is harmful. That is not to say it doesn't have positive effects that in situations can outweight the bad which is the case for a lot of medicine. However as someone said, a lot of medicine is still controlled heavily since it is easy to missuse. I am no "pro-substance free" I am pro-notputtingthingsintoyourbodythatjustfucksitup, but I don't tell people what to do either, the thread asked for my opinion which I gave, I still don't go spreading it like religion; by all means, kill yourself or otherwise diminish your life with whatever substance you'd like. (since sarcasm is hard to spot on the internet, that was. I certainly do not wish death upon you.) What arguement would someone make for "dont lie to people and try to trick them into making decisions you would make, because you assume you have better "judgement"" when it comes to alcohol, smoking, weed, different drugs, etc If your goal was to make someones life as good as possibal, would it include any of those substances, if it would, how do you defend that?[/QUOTE] i defend it by saying that you dont know what is good for someone else. telling that weed is harming them because you think it must be, is no reason to make it illegal. telling someone that weed is addictive is a lie. its your "opinion" that weed is harmful, there are credible scientific studies that claim it is in no way harmful at all. yet because of your blind opinion you would perpetuate all the violence caused by the drug war around the world. the drug cartels waging war in mexico are funded almost entirely from selling weed in americas black market. this is why i believe it should be legal. tldr; not enough evidence it is bad, too much evidence that prohibition is causing massive violence. | ||
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UdderChaos
United Kingdom707 Posts
Personally im torn, im a libertarian at heart but again i understand the difference between the "in the moment" psychology and the long term thoughtful brain, and that if people stopped thinking of themselves as a single identity or human, and instead as an ever-flowing, changing, set of billions of neurons that are always different at any one state and than the idea of self identity isn't true we'd all be better off, but i digress. | ||
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LeSioN
United States325 Posts
On September 02 2012 18:27 FragKrag wrote: ok....... you seem to think of weed as some kind of miracle drug, and I won't bother to try to correct you. also, this idea of having to have the potential to kill as a measuring stick is seriously misguided. Something doesn't have to be able to kill you in order to fuck your life right? yeah legalizing it won't help this dont think its a miracle drug. its a drug usefull as a pain reliever. which all the drugs you listed are used for. please elaborate why regulating marijuana would be less effective than the regulation of alcohol? | ||
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NTTemplar
609 Posts
[QUOTE]On September 02 2012 18:21 NTTemplar wrote: [QUOTE]On September 02 2012 17:43 LeSioN wrote: [QUOTE]On September 02 2012 16:02 NTTemplar wrote: [QUOTE]On September 02 2012 12:27 JacobShock wrote: [QUOTE]On September 02 2012 11:59 NTTemplar wrote: [/QUOTE] edit- somehow quoted the wrong thing XD who are you to declare whether something is a "good" decision or not? weed has never been proven harmful. no one has ever died from it, and more and more studies show that it has valid medical uses such as curing cancer. dont tell me what to do because you think you have good judgement. i believe living life "substance free" is an admirable thing but dont lie to people and try to trick them into making decisions you would make, because you assume you have better "judgement"[/QUOTE] There are a lot of steps between being deadly and being good. Weed, different from the other things I mentioned, might not be deadly but it is still greatly harmful. To find the plethora of negative effects of weed is easy, and they speak for themselves, I question your judgement if you don't think it is harmful. That is not to say it doesn't have positive effects that in situations can outweight the bad which is the case for a lot of medicine. However as someone said, a lot of medicine is still controlled heavily since it is easy to missuse. I am no "pro-substance free" I am pro-notputtingthingsintoyourbodythatjustfucksitup, but I don't tell people what to do either, the thread asked for my opinion which I gave, I still don't go spreading it like religion; by all means, kill yourself or otherwise diminish your life with whatever substance you'd like. (since sarcasm is hard to spot on the internet, that was. I certainly do not wish death upon you.) What arguement would someone make for "dont lie to people and try to trick them into making decisions you would make, because you assume you have better "judgement"" when it comes to alcohol, smoking, weed, different drugs, etc If your goal was to make someones life as good as possibal, would it include any of those substances, if it would, how do you defend that?[/QUOTE] i defend it by saying that you dont know what is good for someone else. telling that weed is harming them because you think it must be, is no reason to make it illegal. telling someone that weed is addictive is a lie. its your "opinion" that weed is harmful, there are credible scientific studies that claim it is in no way harmful at all. yet because of your blind opinion you would perpetuate all the violence caused by the drug war around the world. the drug cartels waging war in mexico are funded almost entirely from selling weed in americas black market. this is why i believe it should be legal. tldr; not enough evidence it is bad, too much evidence that prohibition is causing massive violence.[/QUOTE] Heavy coughing, burning sensations in the mouth and throat, daily phlegm production, increased heart rate, reduced blood pressure, distorted perception, loss of coordination, problems with problemsolving, problems with memory and learning, and of course the must rarer syndroms most substances have (including a ton of medicine) the possibility of producing anxiety, fear and panic amongst other things. There are beneficial effects from weed like a lot of medicine, but those only come if you are actually sick of something that makes you able to benefit from it. My opinion is not blind, it is based on the information I have gathered about the effects of the substances I have talked about, it might be wrong, poor, weak, but certainly not blind. Weed has killed people by making them do things they otherwise would not, like driving while under its effects, killing not only the user, but other people too. Again, you got the responsibility to not harm those around you, you don't get the freedom to kill others, sociaty imprisons or even kills off those who think they have that. | ||
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FragKrag
United States11552 Posts
Benzos are not primarily used as pain relievers... Alprazolam (Xanax) and many other benzos are prescribed primarily for use against anxiety (which cannabis probably doesn't help) Also stipulating that cannabis could replace all opiates and benzos as pain relievers doesn't seem very prudent. Different drugs act through different chemical pathways. It's stupid to expect a single drug to be able to replace multitudes of other drugs which act through different pathways. There are also plenty of other drugs that should not be available to healthy people simply because sick people can use them (antibiotics, muscle relaxants, etc) Cannabis can be a great medicine, but you are stretching its benefits past the point of reason. | ||
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