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On July 29 2012 01:33 aka_star wrote:
OP sounds like an alarmist caught up in the political motives of the anonymous campaign. Are you scouting for simple minds to wrap ? generally people on TL are quite intelligent so its unlikely to be fruitful for you.
Generally people on TL don't even read the articles posted in the OP...
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On July 28 2012 21:53 DJFaqU wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 21:34 SEGGLE[8] wrote:
Don't see the problem honestly, if you're a good human being without having to hide something I'd actually support this. Too much crap going on nowadays on the streets. That's the dumbest thing I've read today. I guess you'd have no problem with everyone reading all your private stuff and listening to your conversations 24/7, either.
I'd have a problem with that, but that's not the case.
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It seems to me that concerns of many people here are exaggerated.
Also, I wonder how many people here have a facebook account and thus throw their personal information at companies and goverments willingly.
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1984, here we come. this is the inevitable outcome of power and wealth getting concentrated in the hands of a minority of private individuals who then tailor the world and its conditions according to their will. technology is a double edged sword; it can free everyone on the planet and grant a comfortable life, or it can be used as a tool of control and enslavement.
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On July 29 2012 02:25 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 23:40 r.Evo wrote:On July 28 2012 23:33 Yonnua wrote:
So they're discussing a system which would allow them to identify and stop crime on a massive level while at the same time making it so that nobody actually gains information about you in any way.
1) They only view public places so there's no invasion of privacy.
2) They only cross-check with information they already have access to: internet, their databases, etc.
3) It's unmanned so nobody is actually gaining information about you unless you're doing something wrong; it doesn't go on to a manned level unless there is highly suspicious activity which the system has confirmed.
So basically they make the current system more expedient and successful and make it so your privacy is respected more.
Please stop jumping on "omg dis is so bad" bandwagons before actually thinking things through logically. Let me clarify the wording "public place" for a moment. A place is public as long as it's not in someones house (durrrrr). How would you feel if I could tell you the following about you: I know when you leave the house, I know when you return. I will know if you were really late for work or if you entered a prostitutes house on the way. I know when you bought condoms, I know where you shop (a little short on cash atm since you changed your favorite supermarket? I might be able to give you a personalized loan!), I know whether you bought beer - I will also know if there will be friends at your house to consume that beer or if you are all alone most of the time - do we have a little problem with alcohol? How much would it be worth to you that your wife (who you told you stopped drinking years ago) doesn't find out?The list goes on and on. Now, you might say "Haha, yeah, YOU won't know that, that will all be kept private by our gouvernment!!!11" ... Considering how "private" "private information" has been in the last years, do you really, really believe that this information won't come out and abuse won't be possible? There is an incredible amount of money to be made with information like this. Spend enough money to get a certain information and you will get it. Then I guess the problems with commercialisation and specifically commercialisation of information isn't it? You want to solve that problem? Stop shopping name brands and start going to local greengrocers. Governments aren't the source of that problem, the sources comes from the industries that want that information having too much power because people just give them all of their money. Don't come in here blaming the EU government trying to stop crime and saying it's all about trying to get money. The EU can't physically have financial interests in that because it has a fixed income based in tax coming to it from the member states. This policy has nothing to do with money so don't misrepresent it as being that. Even for those governments that do have financial interests because of industry lobbying, don't blame them when it's the fault of society for making those particular acting industries so powerful. Not to mention the fact that all of the information you listed above is completely irrelevant and who would care if it's known by the government. So they have more accurate information about who's using prostitutes... so what? They aren't going to send people round to laugh at you and if you think there's any negative ramification of that then you're completely delusional. If anything it gives them more active statistics about what's actually happening in terms of prostitution and maybe they actually have a better chance at cracking down on the pimps and stopping harmful exploitation in the industry.
If you really think having information like that available all over the place isn't a bad thing then I don't know what to tell you. Oh well, guess there are enough people who already tell everyone via GPS and Facebook what they're doing anyway, eh?
Edit: We're not talking about some private sector firm here. We're talking about the gouvernment making total surveillance in public places and also storing and "using" that information a legal thing for them to do. Imagine any and all information about you in public places being stored somewhere on a disc. Video and audio footage.
Now think about what can be done with that information. Oh wait, we're not talking only about you. We're talking about all EU citizens. Can't possibly go wrong.
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I've heard of ultra-sensitive cameras being placed on digital advertisement signs, so it changes it's chosen advertisement based on the demographic (gender, race) of the drivers passing by. This is the first time I've heard of Indect though.
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On July 28 2012 21:53 Lumi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 21:51 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 28 2012 21:46 Kanaz wrote:
As long as the surveillance is only in the public i don't see a problem.
As long as you don't do any shady business, you got nothing to lose vs this. The world is not looking to get any better soon, so i don't see a problem in this. As long as they won't interfere in your private stuff, (house appartment etc) - they should still need a warrant from a judge to search places like this. He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither and will lose both. That's really all there is to be said here. It dismays me to read any amount of support here for this. Must not be thinking men or women.
Yeah that's why we should abolish laws, police officers, taxes, government, militias and the army, and parental authority. That quote has no relevance here because no freedoms are being sacrificed. You do not have the freedom to go to public places and not be observed and recorded, by a police officer, private citizen or traffic camera.
The reason people irrationally freak out is because of the technology involved. In reality there is little difference between a cop car patrolling a neighborhood keeping an eye out and a drone doing the same thing. Your right to privacy stops at your front door, has always been that way, and using technology to accomplish what we already use cops, security cameras etc does not change a damn thing as far freedom or privacy.
It's about how we use the technology. Not the fact that it is used.
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On July 29 2012 04:33 Zahir wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 21:53 Lumi wrote:On July 28 2012 21:51 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 28 2012 21:46 Kanaz wrote:
As long as the surveillance is only in the public i don't see a problem.
As long as you don't do any shady business, you got nothing to lose vs this. The world is not looking to get any better soon, so i don't see a problem in this. As long as they won't interfere in your private stuff, (house appartment etc) - they should still need a warrant from a judge to search places like this. He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither and will lose both. That's really all there is to be said here. It dismays me to read any amount of support here for this. Must not be thinking men or women. Yeah that's why we should abolish laws, police officers, taxes, government, militias and the army, and parental authority. That quote has no relevance here because no freedoms are being sacrificed. You do not have the freedom to go to public places and not be observed and recorded, by a police officer, private citizen or traffic light. The reason people irrationally freak out is because of the technology involved. In reality there is little difference between a cop car patrolling a neighborhood keeping an eye out and a drone doing the same thing. Your right to privacy stops at your front door, has always been that way, and using technology to accomplish what we already use cops, security cameras etc does not change a damn thing as far freedom or privacy. It's about how we use the technology. Not the fact that it is used.
I'd like to see your reasoning for that. Is a robot not that different from a human being nowadays?
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On July 28 2012 21:34 SEGGLE[8] wrote:
edit: i'll make it obvious for those who can't read. " a system that automatically watches and observes people in public places"
Surely you're not gonna start banging your woman on the street nor at the trainstation so really, think twice before you start talking 'bout privacy. If it'd state that the government would put up camera's everywhere then I wouldn't support that system, but if it's in crowded public places and whatnot,.. I honestly don't mind.
unmanned drones are not restricted to public places.
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On July 29 2012 03:24 r.Evo wrote:
If you really think having information like that available all over the place isn't a bad thing then I don't know what to tell you. Oh well, guess there are enough people who already tell everyone via GPS and Facebook what they're doing anyway, eh?
Edit: We're not talking about some private sector firm here. We're talking about the gouvernment making total surveillance in public places and also storing and "using" that information a legal thing for them to do. Imagine any and all information about you in public places being stored somewhere on a disc. Video and audio footage.
Now think about what can be done with that information. Oh wait, we're not talking only about you. We're talking about all EU citizens. Can't possibly go wrong.
I don't really know what you guys think "any and all information about you in public places" is really going to be. It's going to be you - outside - going to work, going to meet friends, whatever. How is that information being on a disc infringing on your freedom in any way whatsoever? How will it even effect your life? Let's be honest, it won't. There are already CCTV cameras all over most public places in the EU. Surveillance in most public places is already the norm. I don't know where you've all got this idea that suddenly the EU will start selling off information to people. Nobody's really shown any incentive for anybody to do that. 90% of this thread has just been people talking about how knowing what people do in public places suddenly means we'll be in a police state. Take a step back, take a reality check, and consider how this will actually change your day to day life. Because, chances are, unless you're doing something suspicious or illegal in public places, it won't.
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On July 29 2012 04:43 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 03:24 r.Evo wrote:
If you really think having information like that available all over the place isn't a bad thing then I don't know what to tell you. Oh well, guess there are enough people who already tell everyone via GPS and Facebook what they're doing anyway, eh?
Edit: We're not talking about some private sector firm here. We're talking about the gouvernment making total surveillance in public places and also storing and "using" that information a legal thing for them to do. Imagine any and all information about you in public places being stored somewhere on a disc. Video and audio footage.
Now think about what can be done with that information. Oh wait, we're not talking only about you. We're talking about all EU citizens. Can't possibly go wrong. I don't really know what you guys think "any and all information about you in public places" is really going to be. It's going to be you - outside - going to work, going to meet friends, whatever. How is that information being on a disc infringing on your freedom in any way whatsoever? How will it even effect your life? Let's be honest, it won't. There are already CCTV cameras all over most public places in the EU. Surveillance in most public places is already the norm. I don't know where you've all got this idea that suddenly the EU will start selling off information to people. Nobody's really shown any incentive for anybody to do that. 90% of this thread has just been people talking about how knowing what people do in public places suddenly means we'll be in a police state. Take a step back, take a reality check, and consider how this will actually change your day to day life. Because, chances are, unless you're doing something suspicious or illegal in public places, it won't.
And what if you're wrong?
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I dont think this is even remotly worth it. You might stop a few more crimes, but if this gets abused then it should go all to hell.
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On July 29 2012 04:43 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 03:24 r.Evo wrote:
If you really think having information like that available all over the place isn't a bad thing then I don't know what to tell you. Oh well, guess there are enough people who already tell everyone via GPS and Facebook what they're doing anyway, eh?
Edit: We're not talking about some private sector firm here. We're talking about the gouvernment making total surveillance in public places and also storing and "using" that information a legal thing for them to do. Imagine any and all information about you in public places being stored somewhere on a disc. Video and audio footage.
Now think about what can be done with that information. Oh wait, we're not talking only about you. We're talking about all EU citizens. Can't possibly go wrong. I don't really know what you guys think "any and all information about you in public places" is really going to be. It's going to be you - outside - going to work, going to meet friends, whatever. How is that information being on a disc infringing on your freedom in any way whatsoever? How will it even effect your life? Let's be honest, it won't. There are already CCTV cameras all over most public places in the EU. Surveillance in most public places is already the norm. I don't know where you've all got this idea that suddenly the EU will start selling off information to people. Nobody's really shown any incentive for anybody to do that. 90% of this thread has just been people talking about how knowing what people do in public places suddenly means we'll be in a police state. Take a step back, take a reality check, and consider how this will actually change your day to day life. Because, chances are, unless you're doing something suspicious or illegal in public places, it won't.
Not to fucking mention you can't walk through a city without constantly being on several security cameras. It's not just a few security cameras. It's dozens. Do you really think you're not being watched already? How would this change that at all? The police may or may not know your name before they ask you for your id?
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On July 29 2012 04:37 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 04:33 Zahir wrote:On July 28 2012 21:53 Lumi wrote:On July 28 2012 21:51 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 28 2012 21:46 Kanaz wrote:
As long as the surveillance is only in the public i don't see a problem.
As long as you don't do any shady business, you got nothing to lose vs this. The world is not looking to get any better soon, so i don't see a problem in this. As long as they won't interfere in your private stuff, (house appartment etc) - they should still need a warrant from a judge to search places like this. He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither and will lose both. That's really all there is to be said here. It dismays me to read any amount of support here for this. Must not be thinking men or women. Yeah that's why we should abolish laws, police officers, taxes, government, militias and the army, and parental authority. That quote has no relevance here because no freedoms are being sacrificed. You do not have the freedom to go to public places and not be observed and recorded, by a police officer, private citizen or traffic light. The reason people irrationally freak out is because of the technology involved. In reality there is little difference between a cop car patrolling a neighborhood keeping an eye out and a drone doing the same thing. Your right to privacy stops at your front door, has always been that way, and using technology to accomplish what we already use cops, security cameras etc does not change a damn thing as far freedom or privacy. It's about how we use the technology. Not the fact that it is used. I'd like to see your reasoning for that. Is a robot not that different from a human being nowadays?
A camera is a camera whether it's attached to a cop car, a stop light, the ceiling of a store or university, or a drone.
I'm guessing what most people actually have a problem with is the EXTENT of this public surveillance. Not the existence of it. I'm hoping someone articulate will try and argue that point so I can analyze it... Personally, I view surveillance of public areas as a good thing and I want to understand why some people dislike it other than that slippery slope!!! argument which can apply to anything.
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lolol maybe you should read the articles more closely and be less emotional when you write a thread about it 
It's honestly a good thing to watch the crowded public places to keep the people there safe don't you think?
noone is interfering you privacy
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1505 Posts
On July 29 2012 06:29 sVnteen wrote:lolol maybe you should read the articles more closely and be less emotional when you write a thread about it It's honestly a good thing to watch the crowded public places to keep the people there safe don't you think? noone is interfering you privacy
As soon as a camera is pointed at you, its interfering with your privacy. For example, you cant just take a picture of me, if i dont want it (and use it for something). You have to delete it, or give it to me.
In germany (you actually should know better), the laws would actually have to be changed, to allow this system. And thats for a reason.
Dont get me wrong, im all for technology that makes open spaces/public spaces safer, but not without knowing a. who is watching me right now, and b. what is he using that information for. If, for example, that system actually could just track, lets say, the "Kriminaldatenbank" (the police-picture-roster, dont know the english word) - im all for it. But as soon as there is information to be sold (like how often do i go where, and whatnot), im against it.
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I find it hard to understand how that makes surveillance even possible in Germany. A security camera can record thousands of people per day and I'm sure they don't all give consent... Does Germany not have security cameras or are there special rules?
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On July 28 2012 22:00 ayaz2810 wrote:
Don't see the big deal. I have nothing to hide from big brother. As long as there is no abuse of the system, it seems to be a good thing. Having any degree of privacy in a public place is not a right. As long as you stay outta my private business, go for it.
Inb4 all the "thoughtful" posts about loss of freedom. Give it a rest hippies. You act like the government will break down your door in the middle of the night and kidnap your children to do medical experiments on them.
The system will not be run and monitored by computers. The system will be run and montored by humans, with governmental oversight. When was the last time you heard of a human with power at his disposal who did not abuse it, in the entire history of the human race?
Orwell was right. Maybe not the specifics, but everyone knows he was right.
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1505 Posts
On July 29 2012 06:50 Zahir wrote:
I find it hard to understand how that makes surveillance even possible in Germany. A security camera can record thousands of people per day and I'm sure they don't all give consent... Does Germany not have security cameras or are there special rules?
Of course we have. But these videos cant be used for commercial purposes, they are not.. Ahm, dont know the english word again ("ausgewertet"). They dont watch all the tapes, all the time. Just if something happened. Also, a normal security cam cannot recognize me, and record the "paths" i take through the city. Well they can, actually, but it just would make sense if there was a cause for this.
Edit: wait, surveillance means "watch people specifically", right? For example, tapping into your phone and stuff?
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AFAIK even in Germany with its unique privacy laws, it is legal to film people in public as long as you don't publish the footage. Obviously the police still records and investigates such footage when they have reason to.
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EPT
